jesus christ

[Ibrahim]

you did not answer the second part of my second post. now why is that??? (on the meaning of wafat)

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

Dear Filhaal, when will you learn that conclusions can only be reached when matters are analyzed step by step. I responded to your post because you made the following claims

Filhaal:

1. ** the hadith that have been mentioned above** again shows ** the blasphemous content** of certain hadith.

2. but still these hadith are ** not logical.**

3. because you are attributing things to prophet Mohammad(saw), ** which he never could have said. **

Ibrahim says hence I am seeking and requesting again and again to prove how that hadith was blasphemous, not logical and most of all l not conveyed by the Prophet of Islam??

Up till now you have not given any credible evidence to back your statements but only keep skirting the requests by trying to raise other issues which will divert the issue I am trying to conclude.

Now kindly establish your credibility and deal with the questions raised by me before you try to spin on other issues. I repeat , walk don’t jump or run.

filhaal: so you think that knowing a few hadith by heart, you have attained this thing called WISDOM!! your being to overconfident!!

Ibrahim says: Filhaal, care to tell us where I implied such things? Are you having problem understanding simple English?

filhaal: you are writing this in order to scare me of!!think again.
the reason you do not answer PakistaniAbroads post is mostly you do not have any appropriate answer from your hadith database to answer with!!

Ibrahim says: O brother! Your response further establishes your incompetence! Now, I am not trying to scare you here, IF I deed, by the grace of Allah (swt) you wont be around to respond . Now It seems I have to spoon feed you , which is shameful since you are all grown up. oh well. Here visit this link and read the amount of time and energy I had given as charity for Pakistaniabroad in this forum http://www3.pak.org/cgi-bin/gupshup/search.cgi

filhaal:you have not read the QURAN properly, you are basing your opinion ( your so-called knowledge) on the BIBLE and again your favourite hadith!!

Ibrahim says : What nonsense are you talking about now? Where have I quoted the Bible , I told you, I quote again: ** “ so now you claim you know better and Allah (swt) did not created the Christ in a unique manner for an unique purpose? Or why do you suppose a virgin had to give birth to this prophet?”**

Does not need the bible but is from the Qur’an.

filhaal: why should prophet Isa (saw) not die (and i am not saying that he died on the cross)like every other mortal?? you have not given an answer to my previous post concerning the death (wafat) of prophet Isa!!

Ibrahim says: man! do you honestly comprehend what I wrote? I did not say he will not die for ever! , I am saying he will only die after his purpose has been achieved and that too is within the will of Allah (swt) .

Now let me make this simple for you

1. All of mankind except Adam (as) and Eesa (as) ) were born having a father and a mother , this is the ONLY natural method of procreation for mankind on this planet.

2. The reason for Adam (as) for not having a father or mother is because he was the FIRST creation , hence all others will be born by the union of a male and female.

3. The reason for Eesa (as) for not having a Father but only a mother is because he is the FINAL SIGN for mankind, before the end of this planet as a testing ground for mankind.

Thus Prophet Eesa (as) better known as the Christ was created one step before the final chapter and the FINAL Prophet was revealed to mankind to pave the way and he was raised to heaven by Allah (swt) when they tried to kill him and will be sent back one step before the end as the SIGN of the end , to die on this planet before the final hour. All these can be understood from scriptures and need not any conjectures or guess work.

filhaal: so, you are suggesting that you do undertsand the QURAN!!
if you had understood the whole QURAN properly, then you would not have said the things about Prophet Isa that you are saying now!!

Ibrahim says hello young man, why are you repeating your nonsense without the evidence for your assertions ?? What ever I say I can back it up with scriptural quotes can you do the same? ** So be a man first produce the evidence for that hadith being blasphemous and after which produce the evidence for the Prophet (pbuh) not revealing that hadiths and after which produce the evidence for me not being able to understand the Qur’an. **

STEP BY STEP, get it??? , it is a science and has a methodology , failing which you are in the wrong forum.

IF the second Coming of Prophet Isa was a fact then GOD would have clearly mentioned it in his BOOK, this is the greatest evidence against this hadith!!

Ibrahim says : where did you guys comes from?? I mean you will dictate what Allah (swt) must do and do not?

Let me make this simple for you, since I do pity you .

1. Revelations are not stories or epics or a book of rules and predictions on an ascending or descending format.

2. revelations are personal exchanges, guidance’s, admonitions between Allah (swt) and HIS chosen Prophets. That were sent on a need to know basis for that prophet to be expounded by that prophet to his followers .

Hence revelations that are finally compiled into book form as REVEALED scripture will contain ONLY those DIRECT exchanges that were sent on a need to know basis and the expounding of them and how they are to be interpreted will be done by the appointed Prophet which will be compiled as prophetic teachings for their followers by his followers .

You problem is that you negate the prophetic teachings based on your whims and fancies as such you cannot understand what the Prophets taught and why scriptures only contain bits and pieces of information on many given subjects , a little here and a little there.

In addition you are unaware that the Qur’an is just the Final Chapter and its earlier chapters although corrupted have credible information in them which can be used to check the consistency of the message given by Allah (swt) at any given time frame . which is why Allah (swt) left them in the memory of those that wished to hang on to them even though it got altered.

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

Allah, the Exalted, says:

** "The way (of blame) is only against those** who oppress men ** and wrongly rebel in the earth without justification; for such there will be a painful torment.‘’** (42:42)

[Ibrahim]

PS: Brother Filhaal….after this post I am not free and will be on the road for some time, so kindly pardon me for delayed responses but insha Allah will do my best to respond as time permits.

[google]

1. When did this belief (Death of Jesus) Started among Muslims?

2. Apart from Ahmadi scholars from subcontinent, any other scholars of Islam hold the same belief as them?

3. Why would Jesus being alive or Dead would interest any Muslim?

4. Did Holy Prophet (saw) knew Jesus was dead and buried somewhere?

[This message has been edited by google (edited July 23, 2002).]

[filhaal]

salaam to all,

ibrahim wrote:
You problem is that you negate the prophetic teachings based on your whims and fancies as such you cannot
understand what the Prophets taught and why scriptures only contain bits and pieces of information on many given
subjects , a little here and a little there.

filhaal: you are telling me that the QURAN contains "bits and Pieces, little here and there on many subjects"!!! again a blasphemous remark against the WORD OF GOD!!
dear old man, you might certainly have read the quran, but certainly have not UNDERSTOOD IT!!

listen to me, THE QURAN CONTAINS EVERY THING WHICH IS IMPORTANT FOR OUR SALVATION!!
oh, you want evidence, here you go:

                     Here are some verses from the Quran:

                     "And certainly We have repeated for humankind, in this Quran, every kind of
                     example, but the majority of humankind do not consent to aught but denying." (17:89) 

                     God is talking about EVERY KIND of EXAMPLE


                     “We have put forth for humans, in this Qur’an, every kind of example so that they may
                     remember” (Qur’an 39:27). 


                     "And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything
                     , and a guidance and mercy
                     and good news for those who submit." (16:89) 


                     Again GOD says that HIs book has " CLEAR EXPLANATION of EVERYTHING". GOD is making a claim of COMPLETENESS!!

                     Some other verses on the DETAILEDNESS of the quran:

                     “Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the
                     Book (which is) distinctly detailed” (6:114) 

                     “And certainly We have brought them a Book, which We have detailed with
                     knowledge, a guidance and mercy for a people who believe”
                     (7:52) 

                     “A Book of which the verses are distinctly detailed, an Arabic
                     Qur’an for people who know” (41:3) 

                     “Indeed We have made the verses detailed for a people who take reminder ” (6:126) 

                     GOD is claiming that HIS book is detailed, so why do the masses (including you , ibrahim)not believe what God has said in HIS book revealed
                     to us through his Prophet (saw)??!! Why do people say that they need other books (eq. hadith) to SUPPLEMENT,
                     EXPLAIN GOD's WORD??

                     in other words the book of God is complete, perfect and detailed enough for our salvation!!

                     hopefully this makes my point clear!!!!!!

GOD IS TELLING US THAT HIS BOOK IS PERFECT, COMPLETE AND FULLY-DETAILED, got this one. and you want to tell me that the QURAN contains bits and pieces!!
haa, what a joke!!

if the second coming was such an important fact, then GOD would have mentioned it in the QURAN, but it is not in the QURAN. simple as that!!

ibrahim wrote:
Now let me make this simple for you

             1) All of mankind except Adam (as) and Eesa (as) ) were born having a father and a mother , this is the ONLY natural method
             of procreation for mankind on this planet. 

filhaal:
ohhh, i didnot know that this was the only way for procreation!! i thought that people grew on trees!!
Budy, you do not know who you are talking to, that's why you wrote this out of ignorance and arrogance!!

ibrahim wrote:
2) The reason for Adam (as) for not having a father or mother is because he was the FIRST creation , hence all others will be
born by the union of a male and female.

filhaal:
again you are ignorant and arrogant, what about EVE (as) then?? or are you going to explain to me that she was made out a rib???

ibrahim:
3) The reason for Eesa (as) for not having a Father but only a mother is because he is the FINAL SIGN for mankind, before the
end of this planet as a testing ground for mankind.

filhaal:
think again, the final sign before the end of this planet is the QURAN!! but i am not finished, i will deal with the birth and death of prophet Isa (SAW) in a latter post!!

when i said that the killing of pigs by Prophet Isa (saw) in the future according to the hadith is nonsense, you gave the following ridiculous "prove":

ibrahim wrote:
did you know Christ killed 2000 innocent pigs by sending the demons upon them.

filhaal:
what do you mean by innocent, so are there also crooked pigs. BTW where did you get this "prove"!!
This again shows the ridiculous nature of your defence!!

the second part of that hadith on jizya (tax)!!

ibrahim wrote:
“Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.”

filhaal:
this is complete nonsense-proof!!
this shows your knowledge on economics is next-to-nothing!! TAX itself is not bad or wrong. The thing that needs to be eradicated is the injustice and oppression in the world and not TAX!!Even in a just society tax will be an important issue!!
do you really think that abolishing the TAX (jizya) will stop oppression and injustice!!
and certainly abandance of money is not the way for a just society!! the society that was established by prophet Mohammad (saw) in Medina was a just society, but there was certainly no abandance of money!!

ibrahim wrote:
Hence taxation will be abolished at some future when Christ will return to accomplish his final mission, this simply means Islam
will be reestablished as prophesied and at such times, since Muslims will practice Islam and they will be abundance of wealth ,
they need not impose jizya anymore as prescribed by Allah (swt) .

filhaal:
not a sensible remark!!
you said:".....since muslims will practice Islam......".
in other words 80-90% of the muslims today are not practicing the true ISLAM???

so for the time being i will leave it here, otherwise the post will get very long!!

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Helloooooooo Filhaal ! CAN YOU HEAR ME???? I speaketh simple english

Let me run this past you again for the THIRD TIME

Hey kiddo, under mentioned is what you wrote, so prove it FIRST, failing which stop vomiting about other matters that is beyond your comprehension.

[quote]
Filhaal wrote:

1) the hadith that have been mentioned above again shows the **blasphemous **content of certain hadith.

2) but still these hadith are *not logical. *

3) because you are attributing things to prophet Mohammad(saw), ** which he never could have said. **

Ibrahim wrote EARLIER: hence I am seeking and requesting again and again ** to prove how that hadith was blasphemous, not logical and most of all not conveyed by the Prophet of Islam??**

Up till now you have not given any credible evidence to back your statements but only keep skirting the requests by trying to raise other issues which will divert the issue I am trying to conclude.

Now kindly establish your credibility and deal with the questions raised by me before you try to spin on other issues. I repeat , walk don.t jump or run.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Now, You have already established that you are a deviant in this thread itself, as such it does not matter much what you think about Islam, but since you want to talk about Islam, ** make sure you can back up what you say.**

I hope I won.t have to repeat this again since you keep wandering away from the issue that you raised by your own tongue.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** Allah, the Exalted, says:

"When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad (PBUH)), they say: `We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah.' Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.'' (63:1)**

[sholay]

Filhaal & Co

Do you believe that Imaam Mehdi and the Dajaal will also come.

If so, on what basis! Please give us your reasoning.

Finally, please digest the following ayats and then give your understandings, as you seem to be well versed in the Arabic language:

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL: But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

004.159
YUSUFALI: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
PICKTHAL: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -
SHAKIR: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

Bear in mind that if Jesus is dead as you have claimed, then the above ayats become null and void!

Now you have to determine which stance you take.

I await.

[filhaal]

dear all, salaam,

first of all, ibrahim, DO YOU EVER READ OTHER PEOPLES POSTS, before you start barking!!
before i started posting, i had been following different discussions you had with the likes of PakistaniAbroad, PCG and Nescio, etc.....!!
So, i already knew that you are a hard-learner!!but then again, you have been - since your youth - brainwashed with these hadith, so it takes time before you can adjust to other peoples argumentations!!

i have already exposed the ridiculous nature of that hadith, but i will re-iterate my point:

1.when i said that the killing of pigs by Prophet Isa (saw) in the future according to the hadith is nonsense, you gave
the following ridiculous "prove":

                     ibrahim wrote:
                     did you know Christ killed 2000 innocent pigs by sending the demons upon them.

                     filhaal:
                     what do you mean by innocent, so are there also crooked pigs. BTW where did you get this "prove"!!
                     This again shows the ridiculous nature of your defence!!

1. the second part of that hadith on jizya (tax)!!

                    ibrahim wrote:
                    “Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.” 
   
                    filhaal:
                    this is complete nonsense-proof!!
                    this shows your knowledge on economics is next-to-nothing!! TAX itself is not bad or wrong. The thing that needs to
                    be eradicated is the injustice and oppression in the world and not TAX!!Even in a just society tax will be an important
                    issue!!
                    do you really think that abolishing the TAX (jizya) will stop oppression and injustice!!
                    and certainly abandance of money is not the way for a just society!! the society that was established by prophet
                    Mohammad (saw) in Medina was a just society, but there was certainly no abandance of money!!
   

2. now, we come to the third argument. i did not put this in my earlier post, BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT YOU KNEW AND UNDERSTOOD THE QURAN, but it turns out you were paying lip-service:

ibrahim, did you ever encounter the following verses:

"Say (O Muhammad), 'I do not bring anything new that is different from any other messenger. I have no idea what
may happen to me, or to you. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a manifest warner.'" (46:9)

               "Say (O Muhammad), 'I possess no power to benefit or harm even myself, except in accordance with GOD's will.
               **(Nor do I know the future), had I known the future (unseen), I would have increased my wealth, and no harm
               would have afflicted me.** I am no more than a warner, as well as bearer of good news for those who believe.'" (7:188) 

Dear old chap, GOD is telling the Prophet (saw) to tell people that he does not know the future!! (do you get this........).

still, different hadith including the one on which this discussion started people claim that Prophet (saw) knew the future!!
These quranic ayat completely refute these claims!!

so, in conclusion this hadith is again blasphemuos and certainly not conveyed by the Prophet (saw)!!

the hadith fabricator, who i think was not the smartest of persons, overlooked these ayats from the quran. furthermore, the hadith-doctors, who compilled these hadith were even less smart, even they overlooked these ayats.
AND YOU ARE THE WORST OF THEM ALL, because, after claiming to have read and understood the QURAN, still you overlooked this quranic truth and supported these fabricated whimps and fancies!!

[This message has been edited by filhaal (edited July 29, 2002).]

[NeSCio]

Salaam all,

dear Ibrahim and all other pig-hunters! (=people supporting the hadith on the pig)

I would like to share my points of view:

After reading this thread, I've come to the following conclusions/remarks:

1. Pig-hunting isn't the most enviable of jobs.
2. Suppose Prophet Issa would come back to this earth in order to bring the true message again, wouldn't it be enough for him to just give a speech in which he tells that the cross ad pigs aren't good?? Is it really necessary for him to kills the pig?? I mean, when the end of the erth is near, people will be willing to accept 'everything', so if Prophet Issa can show that he truly IS prophet Issa, his just giving a speech will be enough for people to come back on track!!!! No need for going on a pig-hunt!

3. Even then, suppose that he does kill a pig, how will it be???? will he kill the pig and then traverse the whole planet with the head of the pig on his spear??? or perhaps there will be LIVE tv-coverage of the event?? or wat bout a gladiator fight??? maybe even a boxing match!!! IMAGINE: "In this corner coming from the 5th heaven, weighing ? pounds Prophet Issa!!! *YIPPIIEEEEEEE.......and in this corner coming from Jack's farm, weighing 200 pounds and the reigning world champion (=becaue at that time evil will be governing the world!) the PIG!!! BOOOOOOOHHHHHH*

I rest my case.

[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 29, 2002).]

[PakistaniAbroad]

[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:

[/quote]

welcome back sholay.. your learned arguments were missed, cuz the rest of your pals can't do much except copy pasting off topic and forcefully imposing their point of view using the mods.

[quote]
Do you believe that Imaam Mehdi and the Dajaal will also come.
[/quote]

I dunno if I speak for 'filhal and Co.' but in my reading I do not find anything or any reason for the coming of an Imam Mehdi or Dajjal.

[quote]

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
[/quote]

Put on your lawyer's hat and you'd realize that the above statement only percludes the Jews from killing Jesus; either on the corss or otherwise. It doesn't prevent Jesus falling off a cliff e.g and dying a natural death of his own.

[quote]

004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
[/quote]

The word used is rafiuka and per my previous post, I invite opposing counsel to find it's correct (not just literal) meaning from within the Qur'an. It's talking about a "spiritual assension" and not a bodily assension.

[quote]
004.159
YUSUFALI: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
[/quote]

The 'his death' refers to the 'none of the People of the Book' and not Jesus. Rest is quite clear.

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited July 29, 2002).]

[google]

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
004.159 YUSUFALI: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

The 'his death' refers to the 'none of the People of the Book' and not Jesus. Rest is quite clear.
[/quote]

I am not a scholar or anything like that ...

The tafsir (commentary) says "his death" is referring to death of Isa Al-Masih (as). Implying it as "none of the people" makes the whole verse illogical.

Who in the world believes Isa Al-Masih is prophet of Allah swt? No one except us Muslim. And we are not Ahle Kitab (as referred by that verse). Then to whom or when was that verse ever applicable?

• Regarding Jesus being a witness on the Day of Judgment. How can someone be a witness without witnessing the event?? (*That is if you believe Jesus is dead and will not return).

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Helloooooooo Filhaal ! CAN YOU HEAR ME???? I speaketh simple english

Let me run this past you again for the *FOURTH TIME *

Hey kid, under mentioned is what you wrote, ** so prove it FIRST, failing which stop vomiting about other matters that is beyond your comprehension. **

[quote]
Filhaal wrote:

1) the hadith that have been mentioned above again shows the **blasphemous **content of certain hadith.

2) but still these hadith are *not logical. *

3) because you are attributing things to prophet Mohammad(saw), ** which he never could have said. **

Ibrahim wrote EARLIER: hence I am seeking and requesting again and again ** to prove how that hadith was blasphemous, not logical and most of all not conveyed by the Prophet of Islam??**

Up till now you have not given any credible evidence to back your statements but only keep skirting the requests by trying to raise other issues which will divert the issue I am trying to conclude.

Now kindly establish your credibility and deal with the questions raised by me before you try to spin on other issues. I repeat , walk don.t jump or run.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Now, You have already established that you are a deviant in this thread itself, as such it does not matter much what you think about Islam, but since you want to talk about Islam, ** make sure you can back up what you say.**

I hope I won.t have to repeat this again since you keep wandering away from the issue that you raised by your own tongue.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

Allah, the Exalted, says:

"When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad (PBUH)), they say: `We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah.' Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.'' (63:1)

[filhaal]

ibrahim,

you are now with your back against the wall!!
repeating the same post shows that you are insecure, but you do not want to back of, because the refutation of this hadith will have major implication for your overall belief in these hadiths.
if you scroll a few posts back than you will find your proof!! i have now even included proof from the QURAN, what more do you want??

[filhaal]

salaam all,

now since we have got rid of this bug called ibrahim, we go back to the main issue!!

[quote]

PA wrote: ** I dunno if I speak for 'filhaal ** and Co.' but in my reading I do not find anything or any reason for the coming of an Imam
Mehdi or Dajjal.

[/quote]

i am with you PA!!

wasalaam

[Ibrahim]

[quote]
Originally posted by filhaal:
ibrahim, you are now with your back against the wall!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

Filhaal dear, don.t make fool of yourself, be a man ( I mean a honest kid) and provide the evidence for your statements

[quote]
repeating the same post shows that you are insecure, but you do not want to back of, because the refutation of this hadith will have major implication for your overall belief in these hadiths.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Filhaal see how incompetent your are??? Repeating the same questions means YOU have not provided any sounds answers for them!! And the reason for my response was to establish the veracity of your statements concerning that hadith.

[quote]
if you scroll a few posts back than you will find your proof!! i have now even included proof from the QURAN, what more do you want??
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Oh Please ! you only keep revealing your incompetence, none of the verses you quoted had anything to do with that hadith. So work on it and provide the evidence, failing which stand condemned as the deviant who spreads FALSE teachings about Islam on the net .

Was salaam
Ibrahim

Allah, the Exalted, says:

"When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad (PBUH)), they say: `We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah.' Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.'' (63:1)

[filhaal]

ohhhh, please ibrahim sir
think about the verses before you start talking!!

[Ibrahim]

[quote]
Originally posted by filhaal:
ohhhh, please ibrahim sir think about the verses before you start talking!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Filhaal! why is it so difficult for you to PROVE your conjectures??

[filhaal]

the proof is clear to me,
you seem to have problem uderstanding the verses!!

[Ibrahim]

[quote]
Originally posted by filhaal:
the proof is clear to me, you seem to have problem uderstanding the verses!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

Filhaal dear, seems as though you have little option but to go around in circles in trying to avoid answering the question .

Now let me expose your misconceptions even further since now you are trying to claim the Prophet will not have known such knowledge as to what will come to pass in the end.

Firstly a prophet is known as a prophet because he may have the following qualities

prophet

1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations; specif often cap : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Old Testament

2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; esp : an inspired poet

3 : one who foretells future events : PREDICTOR

4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group

©1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.

Ibrahim says : above is dictionary definition of the word Prophet. but since you claim you are knowledgeable in scripture, why was it too difficult for you to comprehend what Allah (swt) revealed concerning Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ?

Kindly read..

70: 40 ** Muhammad** is not the father of any of your men** but (he is) the Apostle of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets: **and Allah has full knowledge of all things

7:157 "Those who follow the apostle the unlettered prophet whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures); in the law and the Gospel; for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil: he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him honor him help him and follow the light which is sent down with him it is they who will prosper."

158 Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all as the apostle of Allah to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. ** So believe in Allah and His apostle** the unlettered Prophet who believed in Allah and His words:** follow him that (so) ye may be guided."**

Ibrahim says: meaning he was foretold from the beginning and had been guided from birth and all of mankind are to follow his teachings not their own whims and fancies or that of the deviant deceivers.

Now lets look further as to what had been shown to the Prophet which may not be found in the Qur.an but found in his sayings which were kept pure by his followers.

Kindly read..
69: 38 So I do call to witness ** what ye see **

39 ** And what ye see not **

40 That this is verily ** the word of an honored apostle; **

41 It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!

42 Nor is it the word of a soothsayer: little admonition it is ye receive.

43 (This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.

44 ** And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name

45 We should certainly seize him by his right hand

46 And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: **

47 Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath).

48 But verily this is a Message for the Allah-fearing.

Ibrahim says Hence IF the apostle uttered anything false he would have been seized and corrections for his mistakes will be recorded in the Qur.an, as is the case when he forbade honey for himself .

Now since you claim the hadith concerning Christ which is in fact an extension of verses revealed in the Qur.an is false, show us where in the Qur.an had Allah (swt) declared the Christians false in their understanding that Christ had been raised to heaven???

Now if you resort to claiming the prophet said he did not know the future, indeed he did not know what will happen tomorrow on the other hand that hadith is a prophecy of an event that will come to pass before the end which is repeatedly mentioned in the Qur.an ( unknown as to when it will take place) which had been revealed to him because he was a prophet not just a prophet but the seal of prophets.

Ponder over this..

23:93 *Say: *"O my Lord! if Thou wilt show me (in my lifetime) that which they are warned against

94 "Then O my Lord! put me not amongst the people who do wrong!"

95 ** And We are certainly able to show thee (in fulfillment) that against which they are warned. **

Ibrahim says :hence when Allah (swt) had shown him and is certainly able to show the end from the beginning as to what will come to pass, who are you to deny them???

** Now filhaal dear, which means you have yet to answer

1) why you declared that hadith to be blasphemous

2) why that hadith is illogical

3) How you know the Prophet (pbuh) NEVER said it

Now I suggest you come up with a honest and credible answer or apologize for trying to mislead others due to your own incompetence. Failing which you have condemned yourself by your owns words and you have proven that you are deviant and not a Muslim who can recognize his own errors and redirect themselves when proven in error.

I await your reply to my questions for a FIFTH time **

Kindly only provide evidence for your own statements!!!!!

Was salaam
Ibrahim

Allah, the Exalted, says:

"When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad (PBUH)), they say: `We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah.' Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.'' (63:1)

[filhaal]

salaam to all,
salaam to ibrahim,

[quote]

Filhaal dear,

[/quote]

filhaal:
thank you for calling me "dear"...........

[quote]
Firstly a prophet is known as a prophet because he may have the following qualities

                     prophet 

                     1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations; specif often cap : the writer of one of the prophetic books of
                     the Old Testament

                     2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; esp : an inspired poet

                     3 : one who foretells future events : PREDICTOR

                     4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group   

[/quote]

filhaal:
these translation, which you took from the dictionary, are in themselves right. but we have to look at the quranic term "NABI", which is usually translated with the word prophet.

in the quran whenever the word nabi is used it is associated with divinely inspired scriptures!!

"God took a covenant from the ** PROPHETS, saying, "I will give you the SCRIPTURE AND
WISDOM **. Afterwards, a MESSENGER will come to CONFIRM all existing scriptures. You
shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this
covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness
along with you." 3:81

"The people used to be one community when God sent THE PROPHETS as bearers of good
news, as well as warners. HE SENT DOWN WITH THEM THE SCRIPTURE, bearing the
truth, to judge among the people in their disputes" 2:213

so, the definition of NABI according to the quran is: prophets who receive divine revelation, AND NOT PREDICTORS OF FUTURE EVENTS!!

[quote]

70: 40 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but (he is) the Apostle of Allah and the Seal of the
Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things
[/quote]

filhaal:
this ayat is talking about prophet Mohammad (saw) being the last NABI, does not say anything of him (saw) knowing the FUTURE!!
BTW isn't 70:40 a different ayat, than the one you are refering here??

[quote]

                     7:157 "Those who follow the apostle the unlettered prophet whom they find mentioned in their own
                     (Scriptures); in the law and the Gospel; for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil: he
                     allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them
                     from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him honor him help
                     him and follow the light which is sent down with him it is they who will prosper." 

[/quote]

filhaal:
BTW do you agree with the term "unlettered" (?) prophet ? (but this is an other discussion)
again, this ayat does not say anything about prophet Mohammad (saw) knowing the FUTURE!!

[quote]

                     158 Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all as the apostle of Allah to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and
                     the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His apostle the
                     unlettered Prophet who believed in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided." 

[/quote]

for the third time, this ayat again is not saying anything about prophet Mohammad (saw) knowing the FUTURE!!this ayat is asking people to follow the Apostle, in order to be guided!!
so, from where do you conclude that prophet Mohammad (saw) knew the future??!!

[quote]

Now if you resort to claiming the prophet said he did not know the future, *indeed he did not know what will happen
tomorrow * on the other hand that hadith is a prophecy of an event that will come to pass before the end which is
repeatedly mentioned in the Qur.an

[/quote]

filhaal:
the ayat (7:188) which i quoted earlier, is telling us that the Prophet (saw) did not have ANY knowledge about the FUTURE, irrespective if it was to happen tomorrow or on a latter occasion!!
how do you make the distinction based on this verse that the Prophet (saw) did not know what was to happen tomorrow, but still knew events that were to happen after that???

"Say (O Muhammad), 'I possess no power to benefit or harm even myself, except in accordance with GOD's will.
*(Nor do I know the future), had I known the future (unseen) *, I would have increased my wealth, and no
harm
would have afflicted me. I am no more than a warner, as well as bearer of good news for those who believe.'"
(7:188)

[quote]

23:93 Say: "O my Lord! if Thou wilt show me (in my lifetime) that which they are *warned against *

                     94 "Then O my Lord! put me not amongst the people who do wrong!"

                     95 And We are certainly able to show thee (in fulfillment) that against **which they are warned.** 

[/quote]

filhaal:
based on these ayat your conclusion:

[quote]
Ibrahim says :hence when Allah (swt) **had shown him **and is certainly able to show the end from the beginning as to
what will come to pass, who are you to deny them???
[/quote]

filhaal:
again you quoted these verses to support your view. but these ayats have nothing to do with the second coming of Christ or knowledge about the future in general!!
Prophet Mohammad (saw) is asking GOD to show him about something the people are WARNED AGAINST, not about the events of the future!!

[quote]

Now since you claim the hadith concerning Christ which is in fact an extension of verses revealed in the Qur.an is
false, show us where in the Qur.an had Allah (swt) declared the Christians false in their understanding that
Christ had been raised to heaven???
[/quote]

filhaal:

BTW hadith....extension of the verses in the QURAN???

simple answer to the second part of your comment, look at the verses from which this thread started and try to understand the meaning of two essential words:

1. mutawafika

2. raafiuka

[quote]

Now filhaal dear, which means you have yet to answer

                     1) why you declared that hadith to be blasphemous

                     2) why that hadith is illogical


                     3) How you know the Prophet (pbuh) NEVER said it

                     Now I suggest you come up with a honest and credible answer or apologize for trying to mislead others due
                     to your own incompetence. Failing which you have condemned yourself by your owns words and you have
                     proven that you are deviant and not a Muslim who can recognize his own errors and redirect themselves
                     when proven in error.

[/quote]

filhaal:
you again called me "dear".......thank you very much!! i think you are in very good mood!!keep it up!!

still i re-iterate the Prophet (saw) based on all these quranic ayats show that he did not know about the future events in general and specifically related to the Second coming of prophet Isa (saw)!!

so, it is still to be established who has deviated!!
and i again ask you who you are to decide who has deviated or not??!!
You are not the bearer of the TRUTH, you are just trying to defend your own view!!

in conclusion the hadith contradicts the QURAN!!and thus could not have been said by the prophet (SAW).

wasalaam.

[This message has been edited by filhaal (edited July 31, 2002).]

[filhaal]

salaam again,

[quote]

ibrahim wrote:
Now I suggest you come up with a honest and credible answer or ** apologize **

[/quote]

filhaal:
i apologize to all people on this forum for this ibrahim-like very long post above!!

thanx!!