Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

[usmanshahid]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Assalam U Aalaikum

I would like to say that this is just a graoundwork that is being prepared for further refutation of Islamic Laws. To understand this, i would request those who have time should visit the GEO TV website which is the main player in creating a mess. The site contains all details in english and urdu about the program and its objectives and also complete program transcripts in urdu and english. The link is

http://www.geo.tv/zs/

Geo itself summarizes as follows and i quote

Quote:
In the interest of breaking through the apathy which prevents us from thinking about how certain aspects of our country’s laws and regulations may need to change, we encourage all of you reading this feature to engage in this thinking campaign with Geo. Let’s really think about what it is that we are allowing as a nation by not thinking and doing anything about controversial laws such as the Hudood Ordinance.
For a brief report on GEO’s activities kindly visit

http://www.thesaturdaypost.com/spotl…asochieye.html

From the above one can very easily see the stance of GEO.

What is surprising is that had it been such an issue of immense importance the government would have taken it up itself and conducted discussions on it. But like every sane person the government has much bigger issues to attend to. People dont have electricity, water, food and are living badly. People are coming out in the streets against electricity breakdowns and we are talking about Hudood Ordinance being Non Islamic.

Let us say that there are laws that need to be ammeded. But arent there any other laws that need to be ammended or Hudood is the only one left for ammendment.

Why is a private TV chanel (that has substantial links with the jewish lobby and american goverment) playing this game and un expectedly the majority of the media men that i have met personally or the reports that i have read clearly indicate that this is a hoax and a conspiracy in disguise.

Before i summarize i would like to request the readers to take a look at the following link

http://www.hrcp-web.org/report_ncsw.cfm

To summarize the findings there are two main opinions.

One - The most influential opinion led by Ghamidi is to remove Hudood Ordinance completely (this is what was decided by Ghamidi, Farooq Haider Maududi, Asma Jahangir, IA Rehman (qadiyani) etc. and repeal all laws relating to religion in the consitution of Pakistan. Furthermore they enlightened scholars of the likes of Ghamidi had a meeting with qadiyanis in which it was decided to tackle the issue with another bearing. This was to project the Hudood laws and the Blasphemy laws to the public in such a way that it creates an impression that the Ulemas and Maulvis are using it as a tool to persecute innocent minorities and degradation of women. Therefore Mr. Ghamidi and Asma Jahangir are not against Islam they are against the Misuse of islam, therefore according to them the laws should be repealed and abolished and repealed. Same is the case with blasphemy law, the proceedings of which are as under

http://www.hrcp-web.org/hrdoc.cfm#

Second - The least countable opinion is that of Ulemas and Maulvis that have appeared on the Geo Tv program. They cant say anything except that it needs a change.

As regards Mufti Taqi Uthmani, his detailed opinion can be read in an Urdu Weekly called Zarb e Momin in which he has exposed the reality of such conspiracies andvery realisitically analyzed the hudood ordinance. those who live in pakistan can get the old copies since his opinion has been published over a number of weekly issues.

If you all note closely that whenever Ghamidi says that Hudood Ordinance is not from Quran and Sunnah, by Sunnah he DOESNOT mean Hadith. He means something else. And if you go on the almawrid.org website you will find no entry against the Hadith link, why? Only ghamdi can answer this…

Cases have ben filed in the Supreme Court by the HRCP (supported by Ghamdi and Qadiyanis) against the

1. Repealing of Hudood Laws
2. Repealing of Blasphemy Law (295-C PPC)
3. Women should have the right to marry four men just like a man has the right to marry four man, or man’s right for four marriage should be reduced to one.
4. The concept of Apostacy and Murtad (according to Ghamdi) and the subsequent Had of Qatl (death penalty) became Mauqoof at the time of Holy Prophet Salal Lahu Aalaihi Wassalam. Right now, no one should be killed if he changes from Islam to any other religion. In fact the word Murtad means to change from Islam to Hinduism, Buddhism etc. and not to Christianity and Judaism becase according to Quran they are people of the book. (ahlul Kitab). Therefore a muslim has the right to change from Islam to christianity and judaism whenever he she wants to without any hadd as it is NOT covered by Quran and Sunnah.
5. The Shahadat of one man should be equal to one woman and no less than that as it is against women rights.

Asma Jahangir is a self proclaimed secularists and an apostate who says that those who follow the bigotry of quran and islam can follow it while others should not be forced to do so. Her husband is an industrialist who owns textile mills in Lahore and is a staunch Qadiyani. The head of HRCP I A REHMAN is one of the biggest qadiyani influencer in Pakistan. He is a qadiyani. The two ISLAMIC aides of Asma Jahangir and her drive against islam are JAved Ghamidi and Farooq Haider Maududi (son of Maududi), and Dr. Farooq Khan (another secular humanist).

They are supported by

1. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy (Qadiyani) Quaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad. Hoodbhoy has met Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Edward Said etc. and conducts seminars on free thinking and rationalism against islam.
2. Eqbal Ahmed, Dr. (Secular Apostate), who used to write in dawn and died the death of a bigot through colon cancer. He used to mock at islam.
3. Irfan Hussain (Secular Apostate) reitred CSS officer who writes in the Daily Dawn (MAzdak Section) against Islam.
4. MS Hasan (another name of Irfan hussain, i presume) with newsposts in the daily The News. He writes from three places Islamabad, Karachi and Lahore.

Wassalam

[MKF]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@usmanshahid

People are coming out in the streets against electricity breakdowns and we are talking about Hudood Ordinance being Non Islamic.

Can't we talk about both?

@usmanshahid

Let us say that there are laws that need to be ammeded. But arent there any other laws that need to be ammended or Hudood is the only one left for ammendment.

Because thousands of women are languishing in jails because of these laws while they are innocent. Now you will deny that the lists published by human rights organization are wrong and there is no one in jail.

@usmanshahid

Why is a private TV chanel (that has substantial links with the jewish lobby and american goverment) playing this game

Substantiate your charge. Just saying something does not prove it.

@usmanshahid

This was to project the Hudood laws and the Blasphemy laws to the public in such a way that it creates an impression that the Ulemas and Maulvis are using it as a tool to persecute innocent minorities and degradation of women.

Aren't they?

Therefore Mr. Ghamidi and Asma Jahangir are not against Islam they are against the Misuse of islam, therefore according to them the laws should be repealed and abolished and repealed. Same is the case with blasphemy law, the proceedings of which are as under
[/quote]

I am not sure about the motives of Asma Jehangir but Ghamadi is a scholar par excellence. Far better than these psuedo scholars like Taqi Usmani whom i proved to be a liar in another link.

@usmanshahid

As regards Mufti Taqi Uthmani, his detailed opinion can be read in an Urdu Weekly called Zarb e Momin in which he has exposed the reality of such conspiracies andvery realisitically analyzed the hudood ordinance. those who live in pakistan can get the old copies since his opinion has been published over a number of weekly issues.

I had shown his knowledge in another link.

@usmanshahid

If you all note closely that whenever Ghamidi says that Hudood Ordinance is not from Quran and Sunnah, by Sunnah he DOESNOT mean Hadith. He means something else. And if you go on the almawrid.org website you will find no entry against the Hadith link, why? Only ghamdi can answer this....

Sunnah was common practice of the people of Nabi's time reported again and again. Not the recollection of someone 100 years after. Would sunnah be known to only one person out of whole madena.

@usmanshahid

The concept of Apostacy and Murtad (according to Ghamdi) and the subsequent Had of Qatl (death penalty) became Mauqoof at the time of Holy Prophet Salal Lahu Aalaihi Wassalam. Right now, no one should be killed if he changes from Islam to any other religion. In fact the word Murtad means to change from Islam to Hinduism, Buddhism etc. and not to Christianity and Judaism becase according to Quran they are people of the book. (ahlul Kitab). Therefore a muslim has the right to change from Islam to christianity and judaism whenever he she wants to without any hadd as it is NOT covered by Quran and Sunnah.

He is right. Bring any ayat on apostacy killing. You are trying to take lives without authority.

@usmanshahid

Asma Jahangir is a self proclaimed secularists and an apostate who says that those who follow the bigotry of quran and islam can follow it while others should not be forced to do so. Her husband is an industrialist who owns textile mills in Lahore and is a staunch Qadiyani. The head of HRCP I A REHMAN is one of the biggest qadiyani influencer in Pakistan. He is a qadiyani. The two ISLAMIC aides of Asma Jahangir and her drive against islam are JAved Ghamidi and Farooq Haider Maududi (son of Maududi), and Dr. Farooq Khan (another secular humanist).

I am not sure about her and definitely do not like her.

@usmanshahid

They are supported by

1. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy (Qadiyani) Quaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad. Hoodbhoy has met Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Edward Said etc. and conducts seminars on free thinking and rationalism against islam.

Your knowledge is indeed superb. He is an atheist not a Qadyani. Not every one in this world is a Qadyani.

@usmanshahid

1. Eqbal Ahmed, Dr. (Secular Apostate), who used to write in dawn and died the death of a bigot through colon cancer. He used to mock at islam.

So any one dying of colon cancer dies a death of bigot?

@usmanshahid

1. Irfan Hussain (Secular Apostate) reitred CSS officer who writes in the Daily Dawn (MAzdak Section) against Islam.

I am not sure i have ever heard about him to be an apostate. By the way what is a secular apostate?

@usmanshahid

1. MS Hasan (another name of Irfan hussain, i presume) with newsposts in the daily The News. He writes from three places Islamabad, Karachi and Lahore.

Wassalam

HaHaHa! Your knowledge is superb. He is Masood Hasan and he writes only from Lahore and i have never read him talking about religion but he talks about the apathy in culture etc.

[khanbabax]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

^^
Ghamdi is like a shaitaan like Asma Jhangir.

[usmanshahid]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@MKF

Can't we talk about both?

who have talked about them
do you ?

[quote]

Because thousands of women are languishing in jails because of these laws while they are innocent. Now you will deny that the lists published by human rights organization are wrong and there is no one in jail.

[/quote]

lame excuse
only based on imagination

and by these new laws wants to make womens of muslim prostitutes
because in your terms zana bil raza is not a crime
isn't that giving way for prostitution

[quote]

Substantiate your charge. Just saying something does not prove it.

[/quote]

you don't believe sahaba then how do you believe me
and again i will say these sentences to you as well
you said that many womens are in jails due to these laws
but you havn't proved that
do you have proved ?

[quote]

I am not sure about the motives of Asma Jehangir but Ghamadi is a scholar par excellence. Far better than these psuedo scholars like Taqi Usmani whom i proved to be a liar in another link.

[/quote]

this shows your knowledge
muslim are lier according to you because your masters w.r.t mind GORAS have said that.
what they will say, you say , yes sir "Typical Army style and slave style"

for example
Goras says that probability of getting the result of DNA is 100% correct you say , yes sir. however you havn't met any one whose DNA test had been carried out , even in million or billions you will find hardly a single person
and correctness of test is not more then 50% persents
what as the GORAS have said , you say yes sir DNA is 100% correct
and GORAS said that AHADEES are not correct , you say "YES SIR"

so the GORAS said the muslim including Taqi Usman is lier , you said "YES SIR"
they said GHAMDI is scholar of islam ( although as scolar of ****an )
you say "YES SIR"

plz come out of the state of slavery , you are free now
look at things with open mind , not with the mind of slave

[quote]

Sunnah was common practice of the people of Nabi's time reported again and again. Not the recollection of someone 100 years after. Would sunnah be known to only one person out of whole madena.

[/quote]

where does the sunnah come from.
do they have started on their own

or first Hazoor PBUH have told the order of Allah and then tought them how to act
or you say that everyone started to act on their own will
Sunnah also come from ahadees not from their own

again your knowledge regarding ahadees is depicted from the sentence that ahadees are recollected after 100 years
for the sake of the argument we take your way of authenticity
then my brother Quran was also recollected after wisal of Hazoor PBUH. you will not be able to find the real saheefays where sahaba write orignially when wahi was being revealed. Quran was not written at that time in the form of one book.

if your athenticity only lies at the fact that when they were written down
then according to you Quran is also wrong

[quote]

I am not sure about her and definitely do not like her.

Your knowledge is indeed superb. He is an atheist not a Qadyani. Not every one in this world is a Qadyani.

[/quote]

sorry , my mistake

[quote]

HaHaHa! Your knowledge is superb. He is Masood Hasan and he writes only from Lahore and i have never read him talking about religion but he talks about the apathy in culture etc.
[/quote]

i don't know him personally
but their way of writing seems similar

*AT the end , still you didn't answer my challenge to prove that Ahadees are not revelations , why are you running from that, i know why *
*because you have no prove *

[MKF]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Look! Imam Malik removed some riwayats from his collection "Mawa'ta" because it did not tally with the general practice from people of Medina. However it was Imam Sha'afee who declared that the source to find sunnah is Hadith and not the practice of people of Medina only. Here started the discipline called "collection of Hadith".

I do not say that hadith are not revelations, they are if they are hadith of prophet. If some person fabricates a chain of narrators, than it is not Hadith-e-Nabawi but some one else's Hadith. Precisely for this reason Hazrat Umar would never accept any riwayat attributed to Prophet if a witness was not brought forward and here we are accepting riwayats without witness and ammending Islamic orders.

I do not agree to Imran Jaffar's theory of not taking Ahadith as source of authority (actually Pervaiz's theory) but i think before passing any verdict we have to make it absolutely sure that the prophet did say that. How we do that? Follow Hazrat Umar. Bring a witness or multiple reporters of same event and done. However saying that Hazoor did say that while the riwayat has beeb attributed by only one sahabee tantamounts to labelling Nauz billah Prophet as irresponsible.

I hope i have answered your doubts.

[MKF]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@usmanshahid

and by these new laws wants to make womens of muslim prostitutes because in your terms zana bil raza is not a crime isn't that giving way for prostitution

I think you never read the posts and just comment. If zina bil raza (as you call it) is commited in front of less than four witness than it is not a crime liable to be punished by the state but by Allah only (In after life, after all not all crimes are to be punished in this world). In case the witness are more than three than it is liable to be punished by the state.

[imranjaff]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

[quote=usmanshahid]
who have talked about them
do you ?

you don't believe sahaba then how do you believe me
Do u belive in sahaba or ur imam also belive in tht?See the Ahdees book which u consider aunthenticated as Quran.

this shows your knowledge
muslim are lier according to you because your masters w.r.t mind GORAS have and GORAS said that AHADEES are not correct , you say "YES SIR"

so the GORAS said the muslim including Taqi Usman is lier , you said "YES SIR"
Taqi usman is big liar and All Mullah and Mufti also liars.

plz come out of the state of slavery , you are free now
look at things with open mind , not with the mind of slave

where does the sunnah come from.
do they have started on their own

Quran was not written at that time in the form of one book.
Quran was in Kitab form before Muhammad PBUH death.i know u will not accept it because ur Imam(Jin ko tum Allah aur Allah k kalaam se zada importance daytay hoo)had accept the challenge of Allah ke is jaisay ek ayaat bana loo ayaat tu nahi banaiye Lakin Muslims ko dhookha day kar quran in se choorwa diya.
*(29:48). (As for the proof that this book has been revealed to you from *Allah and not devised by you, everyone knows that) Before the revelation of this Quran, you did not know how to read or write with your own hand. **

(1.1) Allah, the Wise and the Knowing has said: “The guidance you long for (1/5), is preserved in this Book (15/9) wherein there is no uncertainty, ambiguity or psychological perplexity. This Book shows to the Muttaqeen the path leading to the ultimate destination prescribed for humanity. The Muttaqeen are those who wish to avoid pitfalls of the wrong path, who believe in the unseen (which becomes comprehensible through reflection on the Quran), and are confident that the right path will lead to the destination even though the former may be obscured initially.

(6:19) Ask them: “Whose testimony is the strongest to validate what I say?” Tell them: “Allah’s testimony is the best to decide between you and me. This testimony has been revealed to me and is now included in the Quran so that through it I should forewarn you as well as those whom it may reach after you.” Ask them: “Do you still affirm that there are deities other than Allah? If you affirm this I certainly cannot endorse this. I affirm that Allah alone is the sovereign and I abhor what you associate with Him.”

my challenge to prove that Ahadees are not revelations , why are you running from that, i know why **
**because you have no prove

how many times we hve to prove tht Ahdees r not revealation?Kabhi kahtay hai yea hadees zaif hai kabhi is ka rawi jhootha tumharay imamoo nay tu sahaba ke shaan main aisi gustakhi ke hai k Daar hi laagta hai sooch kar.
Allah in se razi hoo gaya aur woh Allah se lakin Apnay imamoo ko daikhoo jo khud sakhta nabi hai kia gul khilay hai in hoonay.Quran hoorfaan wohi hai jo Allah nay nazil kia tha aur Muhammad pbuh is ko likh lia karty thai.(Lakin tumharay Khud Sakhta Rasool aur Paighamber nay kah dia tu tum is ko kaisay qabool karoo gaye wase bhi yea baat har Ahle elim maanta hai k quran main koi tahreef nahi hoye aur Hazoor pbuh Ummi nahi thai).

[usmanshahid]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@imranjaff

Quran was in Kitab form before Muhammad PBUH death.i know u will not accept it because ur Imam(Jin ko tum Allah aur Allah k kalaam se zada importance daytay hoo)

who said this
do i, do any of us ??

do you stand by your claim or will you run away ?
bring any of my quote from any of the thread
where i have said that Imams are equal to Allah and even better then Allah nazobaillah ?

you are abusing me of shirk , bring out any evidence other wise you will be responsible for this claim in the life afterward ?

by the way this shows how educated, how well mannered are you and how much do you have knowledge and how much do you based on your imagination
go and bring the evidence before giving the claim.

[quote]

had accept the challenge of Allah ke is jaisay ek ayaat bana loo ayaat tu nahi banaiye Lakin Muslims ko dhookha day kar quran in se choorwa diya.

[/quote]

qo and read do any one of them have said any thing about this
do they have challenge Allah
again you are just quoting through your imagination

yaar pehlay socho pir bolo
bring evidence if you thing you are right

[quote]

*(29:48). (As for the proof that this book has been revealed to you from *Allah and not devised by you, everyone knows that) Before the revelation of this Quran, you did not know how to read or write with your own hand. **

(1.1) Allah, the Wise and the Knowing has said: “The guidance you long for (1/5), is preserved in this Book (15/9) wherein there is no uncertainty, ambiguity or psychological perplexity. This Book shows to the Muttaqeen the path leading to the ultimate destination prescribed for humanity. The Muttaqeen are those who wish to avoid pitfalls of the wrong path, who believe in the unseen (which becomes comprehensible through reflection on the Quran), and are confident that the right path will lead to the destination even though the former may be obscured initially.

(6:19) Ask them: “Whose testimony is the strongest to validate what I say?” Tell them: “Allah’s testimony is the best to decide between you and me. This testimony has been revealed to me and is now included in the Quran so that through it I should forewarn you as well as those whom it may reach after you.” Ask them: “Do you still affirm that there are deities other than Allah? If you affirm this I certainly cannot endorse this. I affirm that Allah alone is the sovereign and I abhor what you associate with Him.”

[/quote]

quoting these ayat do you want to tell us that Quran was thrown from up in the form of book , All muslim agreed that Quran was saved in heaven in form of book but revealed ayat by ayat in 23 years and thoes ayat were out of this order and Allah at the same time advice Hazoor PBUH to place which ayat at what place
so
this again showing your ignorance
tell me again did Quran revealed ayat by ayat
or just drop from heaven in the form of book at once.

at that time when Ayat were reveled , some sahaba use to write and many other memorieze them.
only written is if your athenticity then brings out thoes saheefay on which ayat were written during the time of revelation

[quote]

how many times we hve to prove tht Ahdees r not revealation?Kabhi kahtay hai yea hadees zaif hai kabhi is ka rawi jhootha tumharay imamoo nay tu sahaba ke shaan main aisi gustakhi ke hai k Daar hi laagta hai sooch kar.

[/quote]

you are wrong you havn't prove that Ahadees r not revelation
again read my challenge
002.143
YUSUFALI: Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.

in this ayat Allah have mentioned the changing of the Qibla to which we face while praying ie from our first Qibla , bait ul muqadas to Khana kaba
and Allah is describing that before this Allah had made that Qibla and now changing to new one only to verify muslims

the words of ayat that **we have **refer that it was Allah's decision and revelation to face towards first Qibla and Hazoor PBUH havn't made that on his own. if that would have been the Hazoor PBUH decision then Allah wouldn't have said that

now to check that is there any other revelations to Hazoor PBUH other then Quran , we have to check that order to muslim to face towards first Qibla during nimaz is in Quran or not. but that is not present
only only telling about changing then where is that revelation to face towards the first qibla
this surely says that there are other revelations to Hazoor PBUH other then the Quran

where in the whole Quran , Allah appointed the first Qibla, but in this verse he SWT is refering that he appointed that qiblah

where is that verse , if only Quran is the revelation and hadees is not , then find out that verse

the Above verse surely describes that there are other revelations to Hazoor PBUH along with Quran , so Quran is not the only revelation and hadees are also the revelations of Allah SWT
Hazoor PBUH have never said anything from his own , he was always guided by Allah SWT
so now if any one says that Ahadees are not revelations , then he is surely on wrong path
Allah have saved Ahadees along with Quran
so now lets all of us do astaghfar and pray to Allah to always show us the straight path and keep us on that
because in Quran
002.160YUSUFALI: Except those who repent and make amends and openly declare (the Truth): To them I turn; for I am Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth). These it is toward whom I relent. I am the Relenting, the Merciful.

[quote]

Allah in se razi hoo gaya aur woh Allah se lakin Apnay imamoo ko daikhoo jo khud sakhta nabi hai kia gul khilay hai in hoonay

[/quote]

batayeh kia kia gul khilay haan
sab imam or ulmah ka mutafiqah fatwa hay , app individually sab key dehk saktey haan key sab ney kaha hoa hay key ager un ka koi bi fatwa
Quran o Hadees key khilaf ho jaey to us ko dewar sey dey maro
you don't have to blindly believe imam for each fatwa of them ,you have to verify with Quran o Hadees , if that matches then ok , if not throw them to wall
by this one follow them fully , otherwise partially following them , ie by not checking their fatwas with Quran o Hadees , is wrong even they have told this

[quote]

.Quran hoorfaan wohi hai jo Allah nay nazil kia tha aur Muhammad pbuh is ko likh lia karty thai.

[/quote]

agreed , likh lia ker they , likha llia kertay they , yaad kerwa dia kertay they etc etc etc
100% agreed with you
but you have to see how Allah have saved this book
don't you think that eniemies of islam would have tried to make changes in Quran and why they had not suceeded
wouldn't they have tried to make little wrong copies and spread in world
why they failed
with what procedure Allah have saved Quran

my humble advice to you brother to look in to this matter as well
i know all what you are saying on this forum is with all your sincerity
i also use the contradictory approach in every matter to try to understand that thing
my humble advice to you will be not stick at the thinking that only you are the genious in the world history, don't try to be egocentric or egomaniac
study and study more and always put why before every thing.
don't try to make mind before something is clear.

inshallah Allah will help you and we will see you as the best scholar of islam in the near future , inshallah
my best wishes are with you

[quote]

(Lakin tumharay Khud Sakhta Rasool aur Paighamber nay kah dia tu tum

[/quote]

sorry i didn't pick you , to whom you are referring
are you refering to Hazoor PBUH or someone else

do you think that Hazoor PBUH was nauzbillah khud sakhta Rasool and peghambar they

[quote]

is ko kaisay qabool karoo gaye wase bhi yea baat har Ahle elim maanta hai k quran main koi tahreef nahi hoye aur Hazoor pbuh Ummi nahi thai).
[/quote]

plz explain Ummi
if you say ummi to one from Ummat
which means followers
so Hazoor PBUH can't be followers of himself. he just shows us the path , tell us that what is right and wrong . Gave the practical demonstration that to become good in front of Allah how one have to act
and we are just followers or Ummi, we try to copy him, he gave us the book of Allah and explain to us. and we try to act on his advices.
Allah had made him the practical demonstration of Quran and shows us that Quran is not just a book of good ayat but are not implementable in world
it can be implemented and Hazoor PBUH is the practical proof.

[MKF]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Usman! You have not replied to my questions? I tried to give you my viewpoint in the most gentlemanly manner as possible.

[usmanshahid]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@MKF

Look! Imam Malik removed some riwayats from his collection "Mawa'ta" because it did not tally with the general practice from people of Medina. However it was Imam Sha'afee who declared that the source to find sunnah is Hadith and not the practice of people of Medina only. Here started the discipline called "collection of Hadith".

I do not say that hadith are not revelations, they are if they are hadith of prophet. If some person fabricates a chain of narrators, than it is not Hadith-e-Nabawi but some one else's Hadith. Precisely for this reason Hazrat Umar would never accept any riwayat attributed to Prophet if a witness was not brought forward and here we are accepting riwayats without witness and ammending Islamic orders.

I do not agree to Imran Jaffar's theory of not taking Ahadith as source of authority (actually Pervaiz's theory) but i think before passing any verdict we have to make it absolutely sure that the prophet did say that. How we do that? Follow Hazrat Umar. Bring a witness or multiple reporters of same event and done. However saying that Hazoor did say that while the riwayat has beeb attributed by only one sahabee tantamounts to labelling Nauz billah Prophet as irresponsible.

I hope i have answered your doubts.

agreed but still the problem stays there
when you start making mind against some hadees do you have ever check the chain, do it lie in Ghareeb or saheeh

no one is saying to follow Ghareeb ahadees , listen to scholars they evertime refere to Sahih Hadees why?
we donot reject Ghareeb and other ahadees which are low in level then sahih

Work had been done thousand time on these classification
but most of the time what we say that it doesn't look good to us so we donot follow , it is not the correct way of judging the ahadees

thoes who don't have to follow ahadees , never follow , no matter how much you try to convince them
let see if you say beared is a sunnah , many and many people had at that time but do these ahadees rejector follow that , although that is from sahih ahadees. look at the ghamdi after so much critisim he now still have a little line not a beared

first saying that we will accept only thoes ahadees where multiple chain of narrators available , judge yourself , on how many do you have acted upon

i hope you not mind
take care

[landaleav]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@usmanshahid

agreed but still the problem stays there
when you start making mind against some hadees do you have ever check the chain, do it lie in Ghareeb or saheeh

no one is saying to follow Ghareeb ahadees , listen to scholars they evertime refere to Sahih Hadees why?
we donot reject Ghareeb and other ahadees which are low in level then sahih
Work had been done thousand time on these classification
but most of the time what we say that it doesn’t look good to us so we donot follow , it is not the correct way of judging the ahadees

thoes who don’t have to follow ahadees , never follow , no matter how much you try to convince them
let see if you say beared is a sunnah , many and many people had at that time but do these ahadees rejector follow that , although that is from sahih ahadees. look at the ghamdi after so much critisim he now still have a little line not a beared

first saying that we will accept only thoes ahadees where multiple chain of narrators available , judge yourself , on how many do you have acted upon

i hope you not mind
take care

Let’s get back to the original topic of the thread, which is about Ghamidi and not about people like Pervezi, who don’t accept any hadith. One must read Ghamidi’s books to see if he denies hadith that doesn’t follow his conclusion or does he have a good rational to do so. I had already given an example a few posts ago of “Seven Ahruf” of Qur’an and their authenticity. Regarding beard, Ghamidi never rejected any of related Sahih hadith, rather explained those hadith in the light of estabilished Sunnah and Qur’an. One of Ghamidi’s student has answered this question using all the Sahih hadith at: www.renaissance.com.pk/mayq204.htm and www.renaissance.com.pk/mayq205.htm Hope that this will remove any discrepancy.

[landaleav]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Secondly, the most important thing is that not every thing which was done 1400 years is Sunnah, otherwise travelling on horse, sitting on camel, sleeping under a roof made from date tree leaves would also constitute Sunnah. The definition of Sunnah is a practice which the prophet (sws) did himself and asked his followers to do so as part of their religious obligation. Similarly prophet (sws) also told his followers very clearly in many many sahih Hadith that “Do not hold me accountable for such things which are based on my opinion and conjecture”. (Sahih Muslim: 2263 2361 3262).

I seem to repeat things now. The thing is that why don’t someone reads atleast Ghamidi’s Mizan book on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizan website and then discuss it here, so that discussion would be a lot more fruitful.

[usmanshahid]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@landaleav

Secondly, the most important thing is that not every thing which was done 1400 years is Sunnah, otherwise travelling on horse, sitting on camel, sleeping under a roof made from date tree leaves would also constitute Sunnah. The definition of Sunnah is a practice which the prophet (sws) did himself and asked his followers to do so as part of their religious obligation. Similarly prophet (sws) also told his followers very clearly in many many sahih Hadith that “Do not hold me accountable for such things which are based on my opinion and conjecture”. (Sahih Muslim: 2263 2361 3262).

I seem to repeat things now. The thing is that why don’t someone reads atleast Ghamidi’s Mizan book on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizan website and then discuss it here, so that discussion would be a lot more fruitful.

I have read the book Mizan many time and nothing found anything special
and do you have read the book fanon of him
do you know why he had now removed that from his site

do you know why ?
i think and hope you know

some time before he was totally rejecting ahadees and after so much criticism he had changed line and now saying he accept ahadees but what he is telling the criteria in simple word is that which looks good to me is real and which not is not real
isn’t that amazing

you are saying everything is not sunnah. only in which Hazoor PBUH had ordered is the sunnah.

for the sake of argument i say okey
still you and ghamdi are rejecting beared but you can find many sahih hadees in which Hazoor PBUH ordered muslim to have beared
like you see in
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 72, Number 780 ,781 etc
where direct order of Hazoor PBUH is given
but he still don’t want to obey Hazoor PBUH because he thinks himself scholar and do not obey

last night i was seeing his tv program, when one person from audience call him to prove that pictures and music is not haram when there are authentic ahadees to prove them haram, he wasn’t able to answer
when some one says prove ahadees are not wahi
he wasn’t able to answer and become angry

any one can judge him by just listening that how much he have eager to be called as scholar with so little knowledge .
he started almost fighting when he had no answer to prove

[landaleav]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@usmanshahid

I have read the book Mizan many time and nothing found anything special
and do you have read the book fanon of him
do you know why he had now removed that from his site

do you know why ?
i think and hope you know

some time before he was totally rejecting ahadees and after so much criticism he had changed line and now saying he accept ahadees but what he is telling the criteria in simple word is that which looks good to me is real and which not is not real
isn’t that amazing

you are saying everything is not sunnah. only in which Hazoor PBUH had ordered is the sunnah.

for the sake of argument i say okey
still you and ghamdi are rejecting beared but you can find many sahih hadees in which Hazoor PBUH ordered muslim to have beared
like you see in
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 72, Number 780 ,781 etc
where direct order of Hazoor PBUH is given
but he still don’t want to obey Hazoor PBUH because he thinks himself scholar and do not obey

last night i was seeing his tv program, when one person from audience call him to prove that pictures and music is not haram when there are authentic ahadees to prove them haram, he wasn’t able to answer
when some one says prove ahadees are not wahi
he wasn’t able to answer and become angry

any one can judge him by just listening that how much he have eager to be called as scholar with so little knowledge .
he started almost fighting when he had no answer to prove

I think that you haven’t read the response of one of his students regarding beard who have answered the question at http://www.renaissance.com.pk/mayq205.htm where he has quoted all the Sahih hadith, including the one which you referred. I don’t see any discrepancy. Do you? if yes, please discuss it here.

Secondly, Availability of a book from a site is irrelevant to our discussion. The book can still be bought from Al-Mawrid in paper. I’ve also seen Ghamidi’s program on Fanoon-e-latifa, in which people have asked all sorts of question a person can ask, and I couldn’t find a single question which Ghamidi didn’t answer satisfactorily. See for yourself at: http://ghamidi.org/Audio_Video/Video/Lectures/Fanoon-e-latifa.wmv and http://ghamidi.org/Audio_Video/Video/FAQ/Fanoon-e-latifa%20Q&A.wmv

[usmanshahid]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@landaleav

I think that you haven’t read the response of one of his students regarding beard who have answered the question at http://www.renaissance.com.pk/mayq205.htm where he has quoted all the Sahih hadith, including the one which you referred. I don’t see any discrepancy. Do you? if yes, please discuss it here.

Secondly, Availability of a book from a site is irrelevant to our discussion. The book can still be bought from Al-Mawrid in paper. I’ve also seen Ghamidi’s program on Fanoon-e-latifa, in which people have asked all sorts of question a person can ask, and I couldn’t find a single question which Ghamidi didn’t answer satisfactorily. See for yourself at: http://ghamidi.org/Audio_Video/Video/Lectures/Fanoon-e-latifa.wmv and http://ghamidi.org/Audio_Video/Video/FAQ/Fanoon-e-latifa%20Q&A.wmv

i will say to read his article fully and slowly
you will come to know , he had played with words and nothing more , to give support for not having beared

let see sahih Ahadees he also mentioned

Sahih Muslim
*Book 002, Number 0502: *
'A’isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be npon him) said: Ten are the acts according to fitra: clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one’s private parts with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth.

but he purposely not mentioned other ahadees like
Sahih Muslim
*Book 002, Number 0498: *
[INDENT]Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and let the beard grow.
*Book 002, Number 0499: *
Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered us to trim the moustache closely and spare the beard.

[/INDENT]**it is clear now what the motive behind , mentioning one hadees and neglecting other , just to show that Hazoor PBUH had not ordered, it is just human fitrat **

now move forward
now he brings other ahadees where Hazoor ordered not to follow fire worshipper and paghans etc like
a. Ibn ‘Umar narrates that the Prophet (sws) has reported to have said: ‘Do not follow these idolaters: Clip your moustaches and lengthen your beards’. (Bukhari, Kitabu’l-Libas)
b. Abu Hurayrah reports from the Prophet: ‘Clip your moustaches and lengthen your beards and do not follow these Majus’. (Muslim, Kitabu’l-Taharah)
c. Abu ‘Umamah reports from the Prophet: ‘Clip your moustaches and lengthen your beards and do not follow these People of the Book’. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hambal, vol. 5 p. 264 )

here he tries to show that only here Hazoor PBUH wants to differe from non muslim , doesn’t give stree to grow beard
see yourself

The note shows that there is something wrong in some sections of the society in which it is being uttered and that the addressees of this note should desist from following them

by this he wants to mislead people that , growing of beard is only for that time not now
do you accept this

lets see how he plays with words

growing a beard occurs in tandem with the directive of clipping the moustache. This paired mention adds a certain stress to the whole directive. It has not been said: ‘Grow a beard’, in which case the directive would mean that as against the followers of these religious denominations, (who do not have beards) Muslims must grow beards; on the contrary, the addition of the second clause ‘clip the moustache’ adds the stress that if something is to be clipped it is the moustache and not the beard and if something is to be lengthened it is the beard and not the moustache.

firstly making people confuse then .. lets see next

In other words, the Ahadith are not directing Muslims to grow beards and moustaches; what they are saying is that if they want to grow both, then the proper way is to lengthen the beard instead of the moustache and clip the moustache instead of the beard

trying to lead people to other directions

However, in my opinion, it does not belong to the class of obligatory directives. Rather it is a desirable thing, which will not hold a person liable if he does not follow it

now jump to conclusion directly and gave the fatwa

he forgot

1. many ahadees relating direct order to grow beard
2. havn’t see that Hazoor PBUH have never shaved in his life
3. Describe sunnah as what Hazoor PBUH told and acted but deny it here

by just playing with words, gave his own fatwa without looking at the whole life of Hazoor PBUH
seeing many ahadees , keep on denying them , and getting his own thinking and giving fatwas on them
denying clear cut ahadees

if he says that it is not obligatory to keep beard
then there should be some time when Hazoor PBUH would have shaved
go and find out that Ahadees

[landaleav]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

@usmanshahid

i will say to read his article fully and slowly
you will come to know , he had played with words and nothing more , to give support for not having beared

let see sahih Ahadees he also mentioned

Sahih Muslim
*Book 002, Number 0502: *
'A’isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be npon him) said: Ten are the acts according to fitra: clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one’s private parts with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth.

but he purposely not mentioned other ahadees like
Sahih Muslim
*Book 002, Number 0498: *
[INDENT]Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and let the beard grow.
*Book 002, Number 0499: *
Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered us to trim the moustache closely and spare the beard.

[/INDENT]**it is clear now what the motive behind , mentioning one hadees and neglecting other , just to show that Hazoor PBUH had not ordered, it is just human fitrat **

now move forward
now he brings other ahadees where Hazoor ordered not to follow fire worshipper and paghans etc like
a. Ibn ‘Umar narrates that the Prophet (sws) has reported to have said: ‘Do not follow these idolaters: Clip your moustaches and lengthen your beards’. (Bukhari, Kitabu’l-Libas)
b. Abu Hurayrah reports from the Prophet: ‘Clip your moustaches and lengthen your beards and do not follow these Majus’. (Muslim, Kitabu’l-Taharah)
c. Abu ‘Umamah reports from the Prophet: ‘Clip your moustaches and lengthen your beards and do not follow these People of the Book’. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hambal, vol. 5 p. 264 )

here he tries to show that only here Hazoor PBUH wants to differe from non muslim , doesn’t give stree to grow beard
see yourself

by this he wants to mislead people that , growing of beard is only for that time not now
do you accept this

lets see how he plays with words

firstly making people confuse then .. lets see next

trying to lead people to other directions

now jump to conclusion directly and gave the fatwa

he forgot

1. many ahadees relating direct order to grow beard
2. havn’t see that Hazoor PBUH have never shaved in his life
3. Describe sunnah as what Hazoor PBUH told and acted but deny it here

by just playing with words, gave his own fatwa without looking at the whole life of Hazoor PBUH
seeing many ahadees , keep on denying them , and getting his own thinking and giving fatwas on them
denying clear cut ahadees

if he says that it is not obligatory to keep beard
then there should be some time when Hazoor PBUH would have shaved
go and find out that Ahadees

Thank you Usman for your analysis. Now! Just as you see that this student of Ghamidi has played with words, I believe that those who are enforcing hadith are also ignoring the information in this hadith and imposing what they really want people to do.

I’ll start with principle argument of Ghamidi. Ghamidi believes that authenticity and authority of Sunnah is equal to Qur’an. Hence, to declare something Sunnah is as big as adding a new verse in Qur’an. A Sunnah has to transmit to us through perpetual adherence of whole ummah and not merely by scholars just like Qur’an has come to us through Huffaz all in the Ummah. The prevailing practice is Muslim culture (Arab, African and then in south and far-east asia) is that they circumcize male offsprings, they say Assalam-o-Alaikum, they teach their childrent to eat with right hand etc. but enforcing of beard is not part of Muslim culture except in religious circle. More details can be seen at Principles of Determining the Sunnah

Secondly, you are accusing Ghamidi of not following the hadith. With the same token I’d accuse you of not putting attention to the details in the hadith.

Thirdly, you said that prophet never shaved in his life. This is no reason whatsoever to be a religion. This is just like saying that prophet (sws) never sat on an airoplane. Some thing which the prophet never did is not a reason not to do it.

And then you accused the author of jumping directly onto the conclusion. Rather author gave some possible explanations with an extra hadith:

Abu ‘Umamah reports: The Prophet (sws) once came to some old men of the tribe of Ansar. These men had extremely white beards. Seeing them, the Prophet remarked: ‘O People of Ansar dye your beards in red or golden colours and do not follow these People of the Book’. They declared: ‘O Prophet these People of the Book do not wear shalwars and loin cloths’. At this, the Prophet said: ‘Wear shalwars and loin cloths and do not follow these People of the Book’. They declared: ‘O Prophet these People of the Book neither wear shoes nor socks [while praying]2’. At this, the Prophet said: ‘Wear shoes and socks and do not follow these People of the Book’. They said: ‘O Prophet these People of the Book lengthen their moustaches and shave their beards’. At this, the Prophet said: ‘Clip your moustaches and lengthen your beards and do not follow these People of the Book’. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hambal, vol. 5 p. 264 )

If you take this hadith without its detail in mind, you are going to make shoe and socks obligatory for all Muslims during prayer, Shalwar and loins cloth for all Muslims, and dying beard to red color., and definitely beard along with all these things.

Forthly, you also said that student of Ghamidi didn’t mention the hadith which you referred. The simple reason is that when you look out for some Hukum, you try to find out those hadith which have more information. Because sometimes, as hadith are mostly ahad (isolated) reports, only half of the information is transmitted. For that reason you need to see all the other related rivayat which have much more information. Actually, if you look at all the hadith, you’ll find that the emphasis is on distinguishing one’s self from Kuffar of that time rather than making that practice part of religion.

And lastly, Ghamidi considers his opinions to be fully fallible. Hence, being a student of Ghamidi (although only through internet), I dont’ find a reason to agree with Ghamidi on every issue. If I find someone else’s analysis of Qur’an and Sunnah better, I must follow him rather than Ghamidi, otherwise I’ll be a hypocrate and just like every one else, I am also answerable to God for my actions and beliefs.

[landaleav]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Just to explain my statement in my previous post, you mentioned that following hadith is not mentioned in the given article:

Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and let the beard grow. Sahih Muslim Book 002, Number 0498:

But the author mentioned following hadith:

Ibn ‘Umar narrates that the Prophet (sws) has reported to have said: ‘Do not follow these idolaters: Clip your moustaches and lengthen your beards’. (Bukhari, Kitabu’l-Libas)

Both hadith are reported from the same person. And you are accusing the author of that article to manipulate the information for his own benefit. I'd strongly accuse the other person who would only consider the first hadith and will not consider the second hadith. It is very clear from both hadith that one is with half information and the next one is with more information. And other ahadith which are mentioned in the given article, gives even much more information. I hope that this will remove the confusion.

[landaleav]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Some who really wants to know this issue in much more detail, he can listen to a discussion of Ghamidi with other people at: http://www.ghamidi.org/Audio_Video/Audio/Lectures/Dari%20ka%20masla%2001-11-2002.wma

[landaleav]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

In the above audio, Ghamidi stressed on the fact that the first principle to suggest something Sunnah is that it must be either related to cleanliness (tadhkiya) of body, food, inner-self, or the act must be religious in its nature. As cutting your nails, shaving armpit hairs etc. are cleanliness in body, abstention from certain foods (alcohol, pork, a few more) is cleanliness in food, and having good Character is cleanliness of innerself. Similarly prayer, pilgrimage are religious in its nature. Beard doesn’t fit into any of these categories. It is just like saying that there is ijma that prophet wore “tehmet” all his life and most of his companions also did so, hence it is Sunnah.

To make beard part of the religion, the biggest question, which is even more important than ijma is that, “Is this practice religion?” Does having beard result in cleanliness of body? Or having beard is religious in nature? If you agree with above statements, then beard is part of religion.

But the matter of the fact is that beard doesn’t result in any cleanliness nor does make any thing religious. For example, if a christian will look at us while praying, he will know that we are doing something which is religious in nature, but when we have beard, the question will come up that how this is religion. Those who call this part of the nature, they have a partial comment, because not everything that happens naturally is catered by the religion. For example, hair grows on head, but shaving them or not to shave them is not of any interest to religion.

It is quite amazing to see in the debate that no one could answer Ghamidi’s basic question. Basic principles which Ghamidi laid down to determine Sunnah (on which no one could even point a finger rather they were using these arguments to base their debate) can be read at: http://www.renaissance.com.pk/JulSunn2y6.htm

[MKF]

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

That was a good debate and i liked it.

I have seen in Arabs many beardless imams and i asked one and he said to me that beard is a choice issue in Islam. I think it is a choice issue. Please do not make it a compulsory by creating a new shade between Kufar and Haq as Fisq to which shave belongs as per fiqah.