Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Yaar, calling some thing sahih (right) does not make it right. If some aalim called it sahih it does not mean that Allah has said it sahih.

Does the class of Ahadith called sahih fulfil the criteria laid by Hazrat Umar ( that too on sahabas who were direct rawies not on people later). I think it is mutawatir category which is on the criteria of Hazrat Umar and not Sahih, so you cannot pass religious judgements on sahih hadith only, it has to be mutawatir.

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

I personally believe that all Sahih Hadith should be given the place and status which they really deserve. We should be grateful to our elders who worked so hard to differentiate between correct and incorrect hadith. But with the same token, we can be very optimistic about them but this thing should always be in our minds that this scruitining was done by humans unlike Qur’an and Sunnah, which both were initiated by the prophet Muhammad in his prophetic capacity and came to us through ijma (consensus) of Sahaba and perpetual adherence of whole Ummah.

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

yaar again , you go to the start of the circle
check why some ahadees are sahih , check the criteria for sahih

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

you have posted the criteria and it does not mention any thing about multiple witness. Now you go and check your own posts.

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

^MKF, i suspect that you are falling victim to "Mutwatir" propaganda, which i know a group of people love to brag about.

Do you think if 20 liars describe the same event and each with some variations it will be more reliable than 2 honest persons descriing an event in exactly the same way.

There are many Hadith described by many people with different details and yet each chain of narration contains people described to be liars by Ilm-u-Rijal. Hence just being Mutwatir is NOT enough.

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Regarding this thread, I know that Ghamidi uses Rijal authorities extensively when he comments on hadith and their reliability. I also believe that these Rijal authorities should be taken seriously, unless the content of the hadith has some serious flaw i.e. contradicts Qur'an.

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Hmm, I was actually asking that before giving a religious verdict on a particular Hadith about hurmat like eyebrows plucking we should follow the criteria of hazrat umar who never accepted from even sahabas any riwayat to prophet without a witness. And our ulemas are accepting riwayats from people much later than sahabas without a witness. Why are we so naive?

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

the SOB shud be hanged

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

As far as i know for religious verdict, Khabr-e-Wahid alone is not enough, but i am not sure.

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

The discussion on religious verdict (i.e. eye lashes) is on Sunnah and not on Qur'an. For Sunnah, Ghamidi has written following principles. I hope that this should be enough to give answers to most of the questions:

The First Principle

Only that thing can be a Sunnah which is religious by nature and status. The Qur’an is absolutely clear that the prophets of Allah were sent to deliver His religion. In their prophetic capacity, the ambit of their thoughts and deeds was only that of religion. Everything besides this, was primarily of no concern to them. No doubt besides their prophetic capacity they were also Ibrahim Ibn Azar, Musa Ibn ‘Imran. ‘Isa Ibn Maryam and Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdullah in their human capacity; however, in this human capacity, they never asked obedience from their followers. All their demands were confined to their prophetic capacity, and what was given to them in this capacity was religion, and thus it was only religion whose propagation they were liable to:

شَرَعَ لَكُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحًا وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَمَا وَصَّيْنَا بِهِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى وَعِيسَى أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ (13:42)

He has enjoined on you the same religion which He enjoined on Noah, and which We have now revealed to you, which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, with the assertion: “Adhere to this religion [in your lives] and do not create any divisions in it.” (42:13)

Consequently, it is known history that the Prophet (sws) used weapons like swords and arrows in wars, traveled on camels, constructed a mosque whose roof was made of palm trees, ate some foods which were customary in the Arab society and showed his like or dislike for them, wore a certain dress which was in vogue in Arabia and whose selection also had much to do with his personal taste – however, none of these things can be termed Sunnah and neither can any man of learning regard them to be Sunnah. At one instance, the Prophet (sws) himself is reported to have said:

إنما أنا بشر إذا أمرتكم بشيء من دينكم فخذوا به وإذا أمرتكم بشيء من رأي فإنما أنا بشر …إنما ظننت ظنا فلا تؤاخذوني بالظن ولكن إذا حدثتكم عن الله شيئا فخذوا به فإني لن اكذب على الله … أنتم أعلم بأمر دنياكم ( مسلم رقم 2263 2361 3262)

I am also a human being. When I direct you about something which relates to your religion, take it from me and when I express my own opinion [about something which is outside this sphere] then my status in this regard is nothing more than that of a human being … I had conjectured about something.1 Do not hold me accountable for such things which are based on opinion and conjecture. However, if I say something on behalf of God, take it because I will never forge a lie on God … You very well know about your worldly affairs. (Muslim, Nos: 2263, 2361, 3262)

The Second Principle

The Sunnah entirely relates to practical affairs of life. Belief, ideology, history, occasions of revelation (sha’n al-nuzul) and other similar things do not fall in its sphere. In the Arabic language, Sunnah means “trodden path”. The way the Almighty dealt with peoples to whom messengers were sent by rewarding or punishing these people is called Sunnatullah by the Qur’an. Consequently, the word Sunnah cannot be applied to things such as faith, and nothing which relates to knowledge can be regarded as Sunnah. Its ambit is practical things and everything that does not fall in this ambit cannot be called Sunnah.

The Third Principle

The third principle is that even things which belong to the practical sphere cannot be regarded Sunnah if they are initiated by the Qur’an. It is known that the Prophet Muhammad (sws) had amputated the hands of thieves, flogged criminals of adultery, stoned to death people for sexual misconduct, fought with people who deliberately denied the truth – however all these acts cannot be termed Sunnah. All these are directives initiated by the Qur’an, and the Prophet (sws) merely followed them. On the other hand, directives such as the prayer, fasting, zakah, hajj and animal sacrifice are also mentioned in the Qur’an which has also made some corrections in them; however, it becomes evident from the Qur’an itself that these directives were initiated by Muhammad (sws) himself once he had revived them as part of the religion of Abraham (sws) and given them religious sanction. Thus they must be regarded as Sunnah which the Qur’an has ratified.

Thus, if something is originally based on the Qur’an and the Prophet (sws) has merely explained it or followed it in exactly the same way he was directed to, then these words or acts of the Prophet (sws) will not be called Sunnah; they will be termed as the Prophet’s explanation and exemplary manner in which he acted upon them. Only those things will be regarded as Sunnah which are originally based on the words, practices or tacit approvals of the Prophet (sws), and they cannot be regarded as following a directive of the Qur’an or an explanation of a directive mentioned in it.

The Fourth Principle

A new Sunnah is not constituted by merely observing some Sunnah in an optional manner. We know that the Prophet (sws) while complying the directive: وَمَن تَطَوَّعَ خَيْرًا فَإِنَّ اللّهَ شَاكِرٌ عَلِيمٌ (He that does a virtue of his own will, (2:158)) of the Almighty offered optional prayers besides the obligatory ones, he fasted optionally besides the obligatory fasts of Ramadan, offered animal sacrifice at instances in which it was not obligatory; however, none of these optional acts of worship constitute a new Sunnah. The way the Prophet (sws) showed diligence in worshipping over and above what was required of him can definitely be termed as a good example that he set for his followers; however, it cannot be regarded as independent Sunan (plural of Sunnah).

Similar is the case of doing some deed of religion is its most ultimate and perfect form. The wudu (ablution) and ghusl (bathing) of the Prophet (sws) are two very good examples that can be presented in this regard. The way the Prophet (sws) went about doing these does not constitute any independent or original deed that they may be regarded as another Sunnah. He has in fact tried to obey an original Sunnah in its most complete and perfect form. Hence they shall be regarded as the exemplary form in which he acted upon a Sunnah, and not regarded as independent Sunnah.

The Fifth Principle

Things which merely state some aspect of human nature cannot be regarded as Sunnah. Beasts having canine teeth, wild birds having claws and tamed donkeys have been prohibited by the Prophet (sws); however, this prohibition is only a delineation of human nature, which is averse to eating such things. Hence this prohibition cannot be termed as Sunnah. The prohibition of certain food items mentioned in the Qur’an (6:146 and 2:173) is a mere delineation of human nature. Man inherently knows that lions, tigers, elephants, eagles, crows, vultures, kites, scorpions and human flesh itself are not meant to be eaten. He is also well aware of the fact that horses and mules are a means of transportation and have no role in satisfying one’s hunger. There are some other similar things also which have been mentioned in various narratives and should be understood thus, and not as independent Sunan.

The Sixth Principle

Those guidelines of the Prophet (sws) cannot be regarded as Sunnah the nature of which is fully sufficient to show that the Prophet (sws) never wanted to constitute them as Sunnah. One example of this are the utterances and supplications which are said in the qa‘dah. It is evident from various narratives that the Prophet (sws) taught the tashahhud and the darud to be recited in the qa‘dah; however, it is also very clear from these narratives that neither did the Prophet (sws) initiate these supplications nor did he deem them as an essential part of the prayer. He in fact wanted to give people the option to either read these supplications which he taught them or read some others to invoke the Almighty. Thus the only thing that is Sunnah in this regard is that one must sit in the qa‘dah position in the second and last rak‘at of a prayer; other than this, no other thing is Sunnah in this sphere.

The Seventh Principle

Just as the Qur’an is not validated through khabr-i wahid, the Sunnah is also not validated through it. The Sunnah is an independent source of religion. The Prophet Muhammad (sws) was liable to communicate it with great care and diligence in its original form and in a manner that would render it certain. It was not left to a person’s choice to communicate it further as is the case of a khabr-i wahid. Consequently, the source of Sunnah is the consensus of the ummah, just as the source of the Qur’an is the consensus of the ummah. Just as the Qur’an has been transmitted to the ummah by the consensus and verbal perpetuation of the Companions (rta) of the Prophet (sws), the Sunnah is transmitted to the ummah by the their consensus and their practical perpetuation. Less than this extent of validation, the Qur’an and Sunnah cannot be accepted; only the Hadith, which depict the exemplary personality of the Prophet (sws) or which contain his explication are transmitted through lesser means of validation.

These are the seven principles of determining the Sunnah. If what has been transmitted to the ummah by the Prophet (sws) other than the Qur’an is deliberated upon in the light of these principles, the Sunnah, like the Qur’an, can be determined with absolute certainty.

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Than i think it is logical. However if you have seen the thread of plucking of eyebrows; you see that to prove that it is haraam, only one recollection of a sahabee reported by some reliable chain has been brought forward. Now an issue as important as Halaal and Haraam, can some one think that Hazoor would have told it to only one person and that too on asking about it (you will have to open the thread and read the hadith to understand this comment). Where is the original commandment? He must have declared it Haraam publicly.

But our ulemas are quite eager to declare almost every thing under the sun as haraam basing on some extrapolations by using the science of logic. Should we then use the logic in matters of faith? There they say no. Where should we go?

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Thanx landaleav, for posting such a good material on this forum

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

I think in the discussion on beard, I wasted my time. No one understood the basic guidelines to make something religion. As per first principle of Ghamidi, it has to be religious in nature and status. It should result in purification of body, diet, soul, wealth (the ultimate goal set by the Qur’an for salvation) or it should be religious by its nature.

Just to explain it, take the example of the event when the prophet cursed that person who was wearing clothes which were touching ground. As it was a way of walking arrogantly and also it brings filth with the clothes, prophet forbade clothes for men which are below ankle. Now people think that it is a separate Sunnah, but actually it is nothing but not to have attire which should be arrogant and causes someone’s body or clothes to be dirty.

Similar case is with eye lashes. It is not a separate Sunnah. According to my knowledge, people in those days used to tamper with their bodies. Making tatoos and taking off eye lashes was one of these things. The prophet made a simple principle and that is “anything that results in beauty is allowed, and anything that looks bad to human nature is prohibited”.

It is not the negation of the hadith, but actually every hadith should be seen in the broader context of the religion.

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

welcome to the thread. Whom you are talking about?

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

My pleasure!

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Has there ever been some one before who has tried to interpret the Deen like Ghamadi is trying to do now?

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

you surely havn't read the thread on classification of ahadees , otherwise you havn't said that

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Thank you MKF for raising a very valid argument. In traditional understanding of religion (i.e. Sunni and Shia doctorine), it is generally believed that those matters which are already decided by Fiqh experts of the past, they cannot be touched upon again. The only difference is that Ghamidi doesn’t believe in this. Actually, this concept of stagnation of Islamic Jurisprudence started after roughly third century Hijra, when this process was not continued. However, if you read the books of early Islamic Jurists, they have differed alot on different issue in the religion. This trend is discouraged, rather in Sunnism, it is even said that whoever doesn’t follow the infallible Sunni Ijma, he/she cannot be called Sunni.

This is the basic difference which Ghamidi has, but because Ghamidi bases his opinions on Qur’an and Sunnah (established religious practices in Islamic societies), I don’t find it heretic to listen to another point of view that is internally more coherent. However, I’d love to listen to a more scholarly criticism of Ghamidi.

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Has there ever been some one before who has tried to interpret the Deen like Ghamadi is trying to do now?
* *
Welll Ghamdi is mostly follow the path of Aimaan islahi aur Farhi sahaab.Jahaan taak ghamdi ke scholar hoonay k baat hai he is a very knowledgeable man and very good speaker.jaahaan taak tumhari oper wali baat ka talooq hai ke s se pahlay kisi nay kisi aur nay is tanha deen ko paish kia mere bhai Ghamdi sahaab jaisay 1000 se zada main Mufir e quran k list day sakta hoo.Lakin baat yea hai k yea saaab mafoom ul quran hi bayaan kar sakty hai in k baat 100% correct nahi hoo sakty.Ghamdi sahaab ka ek programm Aaj tv se ayaa tha qurbani k mutaliq os main sirf aur sirf wohi mafoom paish kia gaya jo ke qurani haqeeq k khilaaf tha.yahaan in hoonay dual policy ikhtiyaaar ke pahlay qurbani per shih rooshni dali phir is rooshni ko yahoodiyaat aur israiliyaat k zariye paish kar ghalaat tariqay se izhar kia yea haal sirf ghamdi sahaab ka nahi humhary woh mufakir e quran jin hoonay quran ko imami nazaroo se paak rakha phir bhi ghair danishta toor per is ka shikaar hoo gaye.tum nay aksar soona hoo ga ke main pervaizi hoo.yea mujjh per ek tanha ka buhtaan hai Pervaiz sahaab bhi is se na bach sakay in ka mafoom ul quran aur matalib e quran main bhi is k jhalaak nazar aty hai.
Yea hi haal Abdullah chakarwali sahaab ka bhi raha woh bhi Ahle quran hoonay k bawajood apany app ko in riwayatoon se na bacha sakay.baat yea hai ke quran per ijtami toor per hi ghoor hoo sakta hai infaradi toor per nahi aur kisi bhi language main arabhi ka tarjoma hoo hi nahi sakta sirf is ka maffoom bayaan hoo sakta ha kion k araab mahsoosaat se apnay alfaz k buniyaad rakhtay thai is liye arabhi ko lafazi toor per urdu main Fashih kahtay hai..Barhaal chahay woh ghamdi shaab hoo Sir syed Ahmed khan yea Abdullah chakar wali yea Ghulam ahmed pervaiz yea Allama jairaaj puri yea Tamana emadi sahaab yea saab insaan hi thai ghalty in se bhi hoo jaty hai.
i want to mention some name here jo k baray waseeh thai mafoom ul quran main
Sir syed Ahmed Khan
Chirag Ali
Allama jairajpuri *
*Abdullah chakarwali

Tamana emadi
Ghulam ahmed pervaiz
Dr abdul Wadood
Aiman islahi sahaab
Farhi sahaab
Amir Ali
Altaf hussain Hali
Imamul hind Abu kalaam azaad
Allama mashriqi
Aslam Jairaj puri
Ahmed ameen
haasnul bina
Rahmat ullah tariq
sana Ullah amitsari
Abulah Amadi
Abuidh ulllah sindhi
Inaat ullah aasari
rashid raza
syed amir ali
hafiz depti nazir ahmed
mohsin ul malik
muhammad abddah
Agar in main se kisi k bhi book chiye hoo mujhe se con kar laina i will update it for u

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Ghulam ahmed pervaiz
Isn't he the Kadiani who you have stated as scholar of Islam.