Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
I mentioned before that there is doubt about it that Ghamdi is a smart man. It all depends how you implement that intellect that Allah has given you.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Very Funny!! Are you Thekedaar of Islaam.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Its seem tht na Har kisi ko Kafir kahna.HAr sec ke muslim ka haq hai.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
i never said him kafir, i wanted to ask how can he declare someone nonmuslim
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
No body replied to my question, where has Ijma come between Quran, Hadith & Ijtehad? (sequence approved by Hazrat Muhammad sallalah -o- alaihe-wasalm,in conversation with Hazrat Maaz)
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Should i open a new post to ask this question because some of my friends will consider me Pervaizee or Ghamdee's follower to ask question in this thread.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
He rejects 1. Any form of Had (Prescribed Punishment),
hmmm all of them?
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2. Hadith to be direct
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in general yes.. he's right.
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3. Nazool Eesa Alahi Salam and his Life (like Qadiyanis)
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he's correct there too.. Isa died and will be resurrected at the day of resurrection
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4. Had for an Apostate (Murtad)
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yep.. no evidence from Qur'an for death penalty for apostates.. all Mullah made.
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5. Claims the 7 recitations of quran to be wrong (he is a close ally and aide of Daniel Pipes and Robert Spencer)
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what has daniel pipes got to do with this 7 recitation business?
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6. Music and Dancing of all sorts is permissible
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he's right ..
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7. Jihad against oppression is the only jihad allowed
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I thought that was understood by even the sectarians?
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8. The Shahadat of a man and woman are equal
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hmm technically.. yes.
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9. There is no concept of Purdah (Hijab / Veil) in Islam,
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wrong.. there's a concept of 'purdah' .. it's about modesty.. but yes.. headscarves and abayas and veils etc aren't madatory.
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Khalid Zaheer is a professor at LUMS, Lahore (one can expect him to be in places like this).
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one can?? LUMS probably has the most paRhay likhay jahil maulvis per square foot of their campus.. judging by a quick visit to Khalid Zaheer's website.. he'd fit right in..
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
My understanding is that Ghamidi’s opinion is misunderstood by many people. The best source of the understanding are his own books, which anyone can download from ghamidi.org website . Professor John Esposito write about Ghamidi that he is frequently called a “modernist” because of his insistence on contextualization of Muhammad’s reveletation. Ghamidi’s contention is that Qur’an is Saga of prophet Muhammad (sws). Hence, any directive of Qur’an has to be looked into its context. The second thing, which he learned from his mentors, Amin Ahsan Islahi and Hamiduddin Farahi that if Qur’an is correct word by word, why can’t we retrieve its original meaning by having a high-class research into its literature. The questions, which Ghamidi has raised are very valid. People who simply criticize ghamidi should first try to answer these question. Just for example:
- Qur’an only talks about number of witnesses at a contract. The reason is given by Qur’an itself that these things are not suited to the very nature of women (if one forgets other can remind). How does that equate to somone’s testimony’s value. As testimony is dependant on each ease, and sometimes judge can even accept testimony of a child and these days we even accept finger prints *]Qur’an says very clearly that Isa (as) will not know what happened after him on judgement day (in Surah Maidah). If he would have come back, he would say that I came back and this is what I did! Secondly, Imam Malik in Muwatta (first book of hadith) doesn’t even touch this subject. *]All secular scholars agree that Hijab is a custom adapted by Muslim community after conquest of Bezantine and Persian Empire as Qur’an doesn’t even talk about it. The details are more in Fiqh literature. Kindly see renaissance.com.pk/novislaw2y2.html and Hijab - Wikipedia ]Qur’an gives extensive examples from previous nations that how they were destroyed. These stories are not for ammusement but to tell prophet Muhammad’s addressees that if they will deny, they will face the same punishment. This is why after conquest of Mecca, all polytheists of Arabia were persecuted and people of the book were subjugated by dhimmi status and Jizya tax (as per Surah Tuba). How can I or you do the same thing when Qur’an doesn’t give any example of other than Messengers of God and their adversaries. The only jihad left is Jihad against oppression as per Qur’an when it talks about oppressed people and Jihad for them]Even in the times of prophet Muhammad, Christians were worshiping Isa (as), Qur’an calls them Nasrani (Christians) and those who used to call themselves Mushrik (polytheists), Qur’an calls them Mushrik. Hence, one should call the other person by the name which he/she prefers rather than putting your own prejudice first. Qur’an uses word kafir for only those who had denied the message of Prophet Muhammad with their best knowledge (after Itmam al-hujjah). Kindly visit Itmam al-Hujjah - Wikipedia . *]Ghamidi does not believe that all Music is allowed. Just like any thing else, the usage of music will tell that it is allowed or not. There are some Sahih hadith which even talk about girls singing on Eid day and when Abu Bakr (ra) tried to stop them, prophet Muhammad said that every nation has a day of celebration, and this is our celebration day. How can something becomes halal on Eid day but Haram on other days. Similar case is with Omar (ra). He prohibited drums for any other use other than on Nikah. How come something becomes Halal on Nikah day and Haram on other days. Actually it is the usage, not the thing itself. According to Ghamidi, any Music (even without lyrics) that is provocative should be avoided.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
1, don't know.
Question number 2, Allah controls all.
Dude, question number 3 is not a valid question, covering of women is mentioned in the Quran.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Definitely allah controls all! But this concept defies Qur’an itself, which is not possible.
Quran definitely mentions ettiquettes and basic dress code between men and women in Surah Noor, but it has nothing to do with head covering. Head covering is an Islamic social custom and tradition but not part of Sharia. Kindly, see the links which I’ve give above. His quote from Wikipedia is:
Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, an Islamic scholar well-known for historical contextualization of Muhammad’s revelation1, argues that Qur’an mentions khumūr only as a 7th century Arabian dress, but there is no command to wear it in specific. In his interpretation of verse 33:59, he argues that “they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble” and the context of the verse shows that the directive to wear jalābib was not of permanent nature. He also believes that the special restrictions for wives of Muhammad are not applicable to all women at all times. He considers “head-covering” for women a cherished part of Muslim social custom and tradition but not compulsory.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Javed Ghamdi is nothing but a deviant, end of the story.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
you and Ghamdi are totally against Quran
you say that Quran doesn’t talk about hijab
i would say that read
sura NOor verse number 34 and Sura Alahzab verse number 59
there is clear cut mentioned about hijab
but you still say that people misunderstood
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Although this is a debateable issue in islamic world so it is not compulsory but it is mention in the sora AlAzab verse number 59
have you ever read that
Ghamdi is just a fake
he is surely a non believer
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
I do respect your opinion. But I believe that you haven’t read from the URL I gave in my first post. Surah Ahzad has discussed this at two different places. 33:32-34 verses start with “Wives of the Prophet, you are not like other women”, hence these are only for the wives of the prophet. Second one 33:58-61 is regarding taking Jalabib (cloak) in public so that they are not harassed. The verse and its context shows very clearly that these verses were for a specific period of time, when women were being harassed by hypocrates and when they used to be caught, they used to say that they though it was someone’s slave-girl. This directive was to distinguish Muslim women from others and not for any other purpose (this purpose is told by the Qur’an itself).
Encyclopedia of Islam by Macmillan reference (a peer-reviewed source) states:
The term hijab or veil is not used in the Qur’an to refer to an article of clothing for women or men, rather it referes to a spatial curtain that divides or provides privacy. The Qur’an instructs the male believers (Muslims) to talk to wives of Muhammad behind a hijab. This hijab was the responsibility of the men and not the wives of Muhammad. However, in later Muslim societies this instruction specific to the wives of Muhammad was generalized, leading to the segragation of the Muslim men and women. The modesty in Qur’an concerns both men’s and women’s gaze, gait, garments, and genitalia. The clothings for women involves khumūr over the necklines and jilbab (cloaks) in public so that they maybe identified and not harmed. Guidelines for covering of the entire body except for the hands, the feet, and the face, are found in texts of fiqh and hadith that are developed later.
Similarly John Esposito from George town university (Islamic scholar) and Bloom and Blair from Yale University also believe that Hijab was adapted atleast two hundred years after prophet Muhammad.
I don’t believe that either above scholars are infallible and nor is Ghamidi. But he has got a point. And as true seekers of knowledge, we should not close our brains. But I would also strongly recommend to see renaissance.com.pk/novislaw2y2.html and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab . Thank you!
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Very good inputs.
Now we are coming to know who this man ghamadi is. surely he may have his faults and slips but he probably wants to rationalize the society which has gone from "Aql" to "Naql" and the results in form of rise of fundamentalism are in front of us. However no Ghamadi's critic coming forward to quote how Ijma has become a necessary part of Islam between Quran-o-Hadith & Ijtehad.
Any one listening or you want to fight the battle on your favorite grounds i.e. calling every one under the sun less yourself Kufaars
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Ghamidi finds himself binding to Ijma of Umma (Muslim nation) but not to Ijma of scholars. He says that there are two sources of Islam. One is Qur’an, which we received through Umma (not scholars, as even a normal person can be a Hafiz of Qur’an) secondly, we received Sunnah (which every Muslim practices i.e. circumcision, shaving pubic hair, prayer etc. ). Hence, opinion of scholars infront of Ghamidi is just opinion of scholars and not word of God. See sources of Islam section in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizan URL.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
hmm, seems quite logical to me. why opinion of an imam who may be called an aid to understanding islam may become a binding commitment on me.
Still, my question about ijam stays there. anybody wanna explain?
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Maybe you would like to see post of a student of Ghamidi: blog.khalidzaheer.com/posts/6
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
no i believe (from the Hadith where Hazrat Muhammad (P.b.u.h) had discussed with Hazrat Maaz) that Ijma is not a necessary part of Islam between Quran, Hadith & Ijtehad. I need not see Khalid Zaheer's argument. Off course as he does not believe it, he would twist the arguments. i want to see what arguments have been put forth by ulemas who believe it. can any one paste a link or argue about it. If those arguments will be convincing there is no reason we should not believe them.
Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi
Encyclopedia of Islam by Macmillan reference (a peer-reviewed source) states:
The term hijab or veil is not used in the Qur'an to refer to an article of clothing for women or men, rather it referes to a spatial curtain that divides or provides privacy. The Qur'an instructs the male believers (Muslims) to talk to wives of Muhammad behind a hijab. This hijab was the responsibility of the men and not the wives of Muhammad. However, in later Muslim societies this instruction specific to the wives of Muhammad was generalized, leading to the segragation of the Muslim men and women. The modesty in Qur'an concerns both men's and women's gaze, gait, garments, and genitalia. The clothings for women involves khumūr over the necklines and jilbab (cloaks) in public so that they maybe identified and not harmed. Guidelines for covering of the entire body except for the hands, the feet, and the face, are found in texts of fiqh and hadith that are developed later.
Similarly John Esposito from George town university (Islamic scholar) and Bloom and Blair from Yale University also believe that Hijab was adapted atleast two hundred years after prophet Muhammad.
I don't believe that either above scholars are infallible and nor is Ghamidi. But he has got a point. And as true seekers of knowledge, we should not close our brains. But I would also strongly recommend to see renaissance.com.pk/novislaw2y2.html and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab . Thank you!
my dear Brother read this
Sura Al Azab chapter 33 verse number 59
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
see " and the believing women " with open eyes
this verse refer to all believing women not only to Azawajey Mutahirat
your explaination shows that how depealy you trust non muslims and not trust islam , quran and Muslim scholars
i think you never have read Quran other wise you would have read the
word believing women
although the english have left indo pak since almost 60 years but your mind is still a slave of them, how clearly you reject Quranic verse and believe in those non muslims
for you also read this
Suran Al Ahzab verse number 53
O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished-- but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse-- not seeking to listen to talk; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behove you that you should give trouble to the Messenger of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.
a clear cut mention of the perda
but you will still follow the non muslim i know
as it is a mission of Qadianiese to currupt islam and you also want this