Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
I think its mainly christian influence. As more and more christians entered islam, they brought with them their old beliefs and when they saw an ayah saying Jesus was elevated, they must've thought this is in accordance to their belief that he was raised up(physically).
I think this is so because this whole story of a thief resembling jesus and being put on the cross has no basis wotsoever in Qura'an or hadith.
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
Our Holy Prophet (pbuh) said that this ummat(muslims) will resemble jews like the shoes of both feet resemble each other. Now one can easily see how truthful a person he(pbuh) was.
Jews in their holy book were told of the coming of the Messiah and they were given signs to luk for in order to recognize him. One of the signs given was that before the Messiah appeared, Prophet Elijah would reappear from the sky. They were told Messiah will not appear until Elijah desended from heaven.
Now when Jesus came and claimed to be Messiah, jews asked him how could he be the messiah when elijah hasn't come down from the heaven? In reply Jesus said elijah had already come. Now we all know that no such person descended from heaven. So could it not be that the prophesies about jesus coming down from the heaven be metaphorical?
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
^
ThoRi der maiN mirza saahib tukk baat poNhhcha chaahati hai :-)
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
very insightful and enlightening.
instead of talking about wot i said, take the topic to ur favourite subject where you can start name calling.
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
instead of talking about wot i said, take the topic to ur favourite subject where you can start name calling.
I never did name calling :-)) did I?
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
you are funny dude.
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
There is complete unanimity of the Mufassireen and Authorities of Islam regarding the meaning of this aayat. They all state wi t h- out any difference that Nabi Isaa (alayhis salaam) was lifted alive and physically into the Heaven. The Authorities of Islam unanimously aver that Allah ?will cause Hadhrat Isaa to die? before Qiyaamah after his descent to earth.
khanbabax.. no offence to you personally, but based on my earlier discussion (on divorce) with you its clear to me that you have this habit of saying "complete unanimity" of view by muslim scholars; whereas complete unanimity of views may not exist. You probably prefer to live in a unipolar world, where what you believe is "ijmaa" and all differences of opinions, regardless of how valid, are just irrelevant. You should try to read all sides of a POV to gain a fuller understanding of a topic before issuing declarations of "uninimity of views".
In any case, Quran is explicitly clear that Isaa (AS) did not die on the cross (someone else was) and that he was "lifted up" or "raised". This part we all believe in as part of our faith. Now whether Allah took him up in his physical body or just raised up his soul is something I don't know. May be He did. But for me to say "oh there is complete unanimity of views on this", will be incorrect. I am sure there are many learned scholars who believe this to mean one thing, and some others who think its something else. And lets not even start on that whole "he went to live in Kashmir" angle.
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
As far as Talak issues, anything on which 4 schools of Sunni Islam agree, thats Ijma.
If you dont agree with this def, thats fine.
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
Also can you show me any Sunni scholars who say that Nabi Isa a.h was not raised physically.
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
Its amazing how so many people have different theories and interpretations on Islamic matters. I'm so confused by this thread, and how the heck I have been hearing that muslims believe Jesus was raised up in body just as the Christians believe.
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
^ Its even more interesting that some muslims think that Jesus was NOT crucified, came back, stayed for three days and then was raised up. Seems to me they have mixed up Christian Good Friday-Easter Sunday story with Islamic beliefs and came up with a nice hodge podge of hybrid concepts.
Personally to me, any time you start talking about miracles of God and things which are beyond the limited capacity of human mind, that I take a step back and say "its up to you what you want to believe in". In any case, this is not part of my core beliefs. Tawheed and Risalat of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are core beliefs and then there is a whole guide on how to live life (including salah, sawm, hajj, dealing with others and matters of life etc). Whether Christ was physically raised up or in spirit or whether Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) physically went for Meraaj or was that a more spiritual journey, these are the kind of questions, where you can have a spirited discussion but at the end of the day are just matters of faith with no proof required, whatsoever.
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
^Yes, the concept of miracles has always been used to “dazzle” human senses at the expense of human intellect. Imagine Jesus saying “beam me up Scotty”… same thing with Me’raaj which in my opinion was not a physical event as I have portrayed through “Wa Rafa’na Laka Zikrak”. The Quran says:
10:20 And they say, “Why was not a miracle sent down upon him from his Lord?” Then answer (O Prophet), “The Unseen is known to Allah alone. Wait for the results of my Program. Indeed, I shall be waiting with you.” (That will be the best sign for all of us to behold). [So the prophet did not come with “Miracles and Eye Candy”]
13:7 The rejecters of the Truth keep complaining, “Why has no miracle ever been bestowed upon him from his Lord?” You (O Prophet) are but a Warner for every nation there is and ever will be. (The Perfect Divine Guidance through the Prophet shall be preserved in the form of the Qur’an for all times and all peoples 6:34, 6:91, 6:116, 10:64, 15:9 18:27, 41:53, 75:16-19. And his prime duty is to counsel mankind that false individual or collective systems of life only end up in disaster). [Again, a straight forward message… no eye candy]
11:53 They said, "O Hud! You have not shown us any miracle. We will not forsake our idols just because you say so. We are not going to believe you.” [So Hud did not come with “Miracles and Eye Candy”]
14:11 Without exception their Messengers said to them, "Yes, we are human beings like you. Allah gives His grace of Revelation to whom He chooses among His servants. We work within the Laws of Allah that preclude the performance of supernatural miracles.” (The right way to attain firm belief is reflecting at the Universe, within our own selves, at the accounts of history, and upon these verses. That is the general approach of the Book). “Then you can attain the belief whence you can firmly put your trust in the never changing Laws of Allah.” [Again, no beaming up, walking on water, turning water into wine or any indication of “levitation”]
2:118 Only those who fail to explore the realm of knowledge say, “Why does Allah not speak unto us directly, nor is a miracle shown to us?” Even thus, as they now speak, spoke those who lived before their times. Their ways of thinking, their hearts and minds are all alike (untouched by the passage of time.) Indeed, We have made all the Signs clear for people who wish to attain conviction by exploring the intrinsic Truth in these Revelations and in the Universe. [So asking for and believing in “miracles” is a sure sign of “something”]
20:133 And they say, “Why does he not bring us a miracle from his Lord?” But has there not come to them a clear evidence of all the truth that was in the former Scriptures? (All Divine Scriptures have been miracles in their own right). (5:48). [Sorry, no eye candy again, just a message]
29:50 And yet they say, “Why are not miracles bestowed upon him from his Lord?” Say, “These Verses are in themselves miraculous Signs concerning Allah and with Him are the miracles (you behold in the Universe). And as for me, I am but a plain Warner (drawing your attention to His Signs and to the consequences of your actions).” [The Miracle of Allah is this universe, me, you, this world, the space, planets, stars and so on … again, no hocus pocus]
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
huh? who are those?
I only know of two variations..
Traditional belief. Crucifiction happened. Jesus was physically "raised upto Allah" (where exactly is Allah?.. well they seem to avoid answering that part).. and to fool the onlookers Allah performed a switcheroo with a similar guy. (where they get this part.. i don't know.. but hey.. u need a story, they can pull one out of the thousands floating around through history).
Qur'anic Belief. (It so happens that it's also the Qadiani belief which is why it fails to get any currency with tradional Muslims). Jesus survived the crucifiction and was thus exalted by Allah (didn't suffer a criminal's death). Escaped and died a normal death later elsewhere. (How, Where and when .. they don't seem to know or say cuz the Qur'an is silent on that).
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
I only know of two variations..
Traditional belief. Crucifiction happened. Jesus was physically "raised upto Allah" (where exactly is Allah?.. well they seem to avoid answering that part).. and to fool the onlookers Allah performed a switcheroo with a similar guy. (where they get this part.. i don't know.. but hey.. u need a story, they can pull one out of the thousands floating around through history).
Qur'anic Belief. (It so happens that it's also the Qadiani belief which is why it fails to get any currency with tradional Muslims). Jesus survived the crucifiction and was thus exalted by Allah (didn't suffer a criminal's death). Escaped and died a normal death later elsewhere. (How, Where and when .. they don't seem to know or say cuz the Qur'an is silent on that).
Quran clearly mentions he was not crucified - respectfully I have to disagree with both the variations you mentioned. According to the Quran Isa(pbuh) was never on the cross and his second return will be sign of the day of Judgement . I don't for know many days he came back for- three is what I have heard the most but Quran dosen't mention it anywhere.
Who was then crucified? Nobody knows.
Isa(pbuh) second return : verses 56-61 Surah 43 (Az-Zukhruf)
Isa(pbuh) alleged crucifixion : verse 157 Surah 4 (An-Nisa)
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
^
**4:157 And for claiming, “We killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s Messenger.” They never killed him and never crucified him. But it appeared so to them and the matter remained dubious to them. Those who hold conflicting views on this issue are indeed confused. They have no real knowledge but they are following mere conjecture. Very certainly, they never killed him.
4:166 Allah bears witness concerning what He has revealed to you. With His Own Knowledge He has revealed it. If you reflect on the Order in the Universe, you shall find that His angels, the Universal Laws, bear witness. And Allah is Sufficient Witness.
4:167 Those who deny such obvious Reality and try to hinder from the Way of Allah, have wandered far astray.
AND
43:56 And so We made them history and an example for later generations.
43:57 When the son of Mary is mentioned as an example (O Prophet), behold, your people raise an outcry about it.
43:58 And they say, "Which is better, our gods or he?” They raise this objection as a vain argument. Nay! But they are a contentious folk.
43:59 He was nothing but a servant whom We had graced (with Revelation) and whom We made an example for the Children of Israel.
43:60 And had We so willed We could have made you humans into angels succeeding one another on earth.
[Verses 43:57-60: The idolaters in this instance are referring to angels being their gods, claiming that angels are better than Jesus, a mortal human being according to the Qur’an. Furthermore, angels being devoid of free will are obviously sinless, while the humans have been endowed with free will, and, therefore, are accountable for their actions. These verses are refuting divinity of angels by stating that they succeed one another. Also being refuted is the Doctrine of Atonement whereby mere acceptance of Jesus as the ‘Savior’ is believed to render humans sinless like angels. Allah willed the earth to be inhabited by the imperfect humans though crowned with the capacity to make their own choices]
43:61 And, behold, this (Qur’an) indeed gives knowledge of the oncoming Revolution. Hence, bear no doubt about it and follow Me. This alone is the Straight Path.
[Many commentators regard ‘Innahu’ in this verse as relating to Jesus and then postulate that Jesus is the sign of the Resurrection Day. In my opinion, this fallacy is the result of:
- Missing the context of free will in the last few verses.
- Taking the Hour only to mean the Resurrection Day. But 'The Hour' is frequently mentioned in the Qur'an to indicate Revolution, the ultimate outcome, and the culmination of the Law of Requital.
- Losing sight of the capital M in ‘follow Me’, that is Allah. There is no ‘Qul’, say to them, or tell them O Prophet, in this verse. 'Follow Me' would then clearly signify 'Follow the Qur'an'.
Here is my humble explanation of the verse:
This Qur’an stresses upon you the inevitability of the Law of Requital. Bear no doubt that you will be held accountable for all your actions, hence; follow My Commands given in this Book of Mine.] **
Where does it say Jesus is coming back? I do not want to get into a debate on this but here is what I think. Crucification does not mean "putting someone on the cross" ... crucification means "death by putting on the cross".
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
I just went through several translations regarding this and indeed there is some confusion. Some of the translationsof 43:61 are as follows:
======================================================
YUSUFALI: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
PICKTHAL:
And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.
SHAKIR:
And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.
Another one:
And he 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) * . Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allâh) (i.e. be obedient to Allâh and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islâmic Monotheism, leading to Allâh and to His Paradise).
==================================================
And undoubtedly, Isa is the news of the Hour, therefore never doubt about the Hour and follow Me. This is the straight path.
===================================================
I'll leave everyone to make their own judgement.*
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
Dear mj1982, one does not need every bit "translated" by someone else to understand what the Quran is saying, the Quran is CLEAR (mubeen).
Go and get a copy of Classical Arabic lexicon (not modern Arabic but Classical) and you will see that you do not need someone else to translate the Quran for you...
Let me demonstrate:
وَلَمَّا ضُرِبَ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ مَثَلًا إِذَا قَوْمُكَ مِنْهُ يَصِدُّونَ
And when son of Mary is presented as an example is when your people disagree
with IT (this Message)
وَقَالُوا ءألِهَتُنَا خَيْرٌ أَمْ هُوَ مَا ضَرَبُوهُ لَكَ إِلَّا جَدَلًا بَلْ هُمْ قَوْمٌ خَصِمُونَ
And they say, "Are our gods better or is he?" They presented this argument not to you except for argument sake. They are but a people prone to mindless argument
إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا عَبْدٌ أَنْعَمْنَا عَلَيْهِ وَجَعَلْنَهُ مَثَلًا لِبَنِي إِسْرَءيلَ
Is not he nothing except a servant upon whom We bestowed favour and whom We turned into an example for the children of he who "journeyed" to El (Allah) i.e. Jacob?
وَلَوْ نَشَاءُ لَجَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ مَلَئِكَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ يَخْلُفُونَ
And if We Willed We Could have turned by force among you in the world those that are in control (of every aspect of their lives) such that they shall succeed it
وَإِنَّهُ لَعِلْمٌ لِلسَّاعَةِ فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُون هَذَا صِرَطٌ مُسْتَقِيمٌ
And indeed, it (the kind of success: refer to the previous verse) will be an intelligent sign of the hour (of revolution when humanity ITSELF realizes its purpose: refer to surah Takweer and Nasr) so be not in doubt of it and follow/be susceptible/submit in peace! This is the straightest path
So again, nothing remotely suggesting that Jesus will ever return... he died, and hence the argument from the Kuffaar and possibly even from Christians! The mention of Israa'eel is of particular interest since the Israa' of Jacob cannot necessarily be considered physical but rather considered psychological/spiritual/allegorical... same with the "ascension" of Jesus: It is allegorical...
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
I have no idea how to translate classical arabic - fews words here and there which are obvious like names etc. but not much else. I can read the Quran but I have to read the translation to know what it means.
Where can I find a translation done authentically from Classic Arabic and not modern arabic?
According to my research Yusuf Ali, Picktall and others are from modern Arabic. I could be wrong.
As far a Jesus return is concerned is there any hadith attesting to it? I have deinitely heard one quite a few times......I'm pretty sure you have too.
How do I know it's authentic?
Given this new knowledge I beginning to suspect about other things as well like the Dajjal saga, Mahdi etc.(events, characters realting to the End Times)
No direct reference in Quran to them anywhere or perhaps I have missed it?
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
what was the age of Jesus when the crucification took place?
Re: James Cameron reveals remains of Jesus and family?
Where can I find a translation done authentically from Classic Arabic and not modern arabic?
According to my research Yusuf Ali, Picktall and others are from modern Arabic. I could be wrong.
As far a Jesus return is concerned is there any hadith attesting to it? I have deinitely heard one quite a few times......I'm pretty sure you have too. How do I know it's authentic?
Given this new knowledge I beginning to suspect about other things as well like the Dajjal saga, Mahdi etc.
No direct reference in Quran to them anywhere or perhaps I have missed it?
that means you should suspect method of salah as well bcoz there is no direct reference for it in the Qur'an.