Israeli terrorists kill schoolkids! / 13-year old girl [Merged]

"Palestinian 'government' should be given arms and resources, so they can rein in the violent elements amongst Palestinian groups."

So the next "Fallujah Brigade"?

I have absolutely no doubt that Arafat personally ordered the start of the Intifada II. Can he put the Genie back in the bottle? Doubtful. But he could lead the call for an end to hostilities. I think a lot of Palestinain leaders would follow his call if there were a legitimate peace process restarted. Let's face it, from North Korea to Palestine to Iran everyone is waiting to see if they have to deal with Bush or Kerry. Most think they will get a better deal with Kerry.

The Intifada I was a much kinder gentler fight. It was more civil disobedience, and was probably more effective. The suicide bombers only hardened resolve, and gave the Israeli's an excuse to say, "Do you see what we are dealing with?" The Intifada has gained nothing, absolutely nothing. It is a failure, but lack of accountability has always been a halmark of the PA. It has gone on so long now that the Palestinain people have no recollection of the relative peace after the end of Intifada I. A ceasefire and reconstruction period would help the palestinian people on the ground enormously. This is like self induced sanctions, almost masochistic.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The Intifada has gained nothing, absolutely nothing. It is a failure, but lack of accountability has always been a halmark of the PA. It has gone on so long now that the Palestinain people have no recollection of the relative peace after the end of Intifada I. A ceasefire and reconstruction period would help the palestinian people on the ground enormously. This is like self induced sanctions, almost masochistic.
[/QUOTE]
Ok, so you think it is all Palestinian's fault. Thats understandable because that is what you believe with a lot of conviction, but that doesn't automatically make it right. Atleast I have the intellectual honesty to say that both parties are to blame, but factually Palestinians have suffered a lot more than Israelis, infact so much more that there is actually no real comparison.

In your post where you were trying to suggest that Intifada II is a complete failure (I guess it was more you trying to convince yourself than anyone else) you forgot to mention that between Intifada I and II, Israelis elected a moron, called Sharon. Who single-handedly destroyed the whole peace process. The looming presence of USA as a not-so-honest peace broker but still a calming influence went by the way-side as a result of Bush's election, 9/11 and America's hands-off approach towards Israeli-Palestinian issue. So while blaming Arafat might be a cathartic experience, but if anyone thinks Arafat can stop Intifada (even if he wants to) is living in a paradise populated by some not-so-bright people. The US presidential election has certainly delayed the status quo, and until we have a peace broker there in the region, making a concerted effort to resolve the issue, chances of peace are from slim to none. Intifada or no intifada. Wall or no wall.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
.....but if anyone thinks Arafat can stop Intifada (even if he wants to) ..
[/QUOTE]

Off course Arafat can't stop the madness but at least he can shout at the top of his lungs just 9 words. Just 9.

"peace people! peace!" and then
"stop people! stop" and then
"Bad intifada! bad".

And then repeat them daily, after every prayer: Fajar, Zuhar, Asar, Maghrib, and Isha. Heck I'd repeat after Tahujjad as well.

May be some of the Palestinians would listen. At least he should try. May be these 9 words would save countless lives.

For Pakistanis it is really easy to figure a situation. Just ask yourself: So! What would Jinnah do? Then act accordingly.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
.....until we have a peace broker there in the region, making a concerted effort to resolve the issue, chances of peace are from slim to none. ....
[/QUOTE]

Honest peace broker is only God, Allah or Krishna (pick your favorite). And none of them is willing to come down to solve this hideous war for the last 60 years.

May Allah help us. May Allah accept our Rozay (fasts).

I am by no means saying all or even a majority of the political situation is the fault of the Palestinians. You have over expanded my commentary. Please reference about a zillion other threads where MyVoice and I clearly state that it is the tactics of the Palestinians that we blame, not the cause.

I am old enough to remember the Munich Olympics, the Achille Lauro, aircraft hijackings, all the doings of Palestinians. And who was the father of a great deal of these tactics? Arafat. No right minded country would elect the likes of Sharon if they did not feel that they needed a "strongman" to defend the country. Sharon and his power are the natural outgrowth of decades of Palestinian terrorism. Am I a big fan of Sharon? Frankly I don't know a soul who likes him. But we understand why the Israeli people beleive they need him.

Israel has had much more moderate leaders. Those leaders have been more than willing to negociate peace. The ONLY one who has negociated on the Palestinain side is Arafat. So what is the common thread here? Yet Muslims and Palestinains cling to the image of Arafat as the Original Jihadi (OJ?), instead of viewing him as a completely corrupt failure. To blame the US as a not so honest broker after 20 years of peace efforts is ludicrous. Arafat is a horse that has been led to water a hundred times, but will not drink.

The restart of the Intifada is at Arafats feet and he is not man eough to admit his mistake. Nor are the Palestianians rational enough to think that after 30 years of his leadership that he is responsible in part for their deaths and suffering.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
....A ceasefire and reconstruction period would help the palestinian people on the ground enormously. ...
[/QUOTE]

hahah! That's a good one.

Don't you realize that construction is an obsession of a weak body and an overworked mind? Have you ever seen a tough looking architect?

Strong burly men on the other hand live in tents and herd goats. In fact they prefer caves if one could be found nearby. Ask OBL and Al-zaya-hiri, their cave palace is much better than your wall-to-wall carpeted living room.

I have wood floors. ;)

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
I am by no means saying all or even a majority of the political situation is the fault of the Palestinians. You have over expanded my commentary. Please reference about a zillion other threads where MyVoice and I clearly state that **it is the tactics of the Palestinians that we blame
*, not the cause.
[/QUOTE]
You are still putting the blame on Palestinians. Remind me to respond when you put any part of blame on Israel and its government. And when you are proposing solutions, which you rarely do, also include what the Israeli (and the US) government need to do. Constant cribbing about Arafat, and how bad he is, frankly is getting stale and is not a solution.

first of all, i said i missed the news, so i didnt realize that there was a thread about it...any how,
the soldier was not jailed or more deservingly burned at the stake, and yet somehow we are supposed to believe that IDF provided "justice" for the crime? come on, i think it is useless to argue with people who blame palestinian rockets when they kill children but not condemn IDF when they kill children. and the crap about "intentional" or unintentionaly is bs, collatoral damage was invented by fascists to cover up their desire for unmeasurable death. you must have known about the qoute by your master joseph stalin who said "one death is a tragedy, a million death is a statistic"....bs...a million death is a million tragedies. it is not a stastic, it can only be a number in the mind of blood thristy necrophiles.

it will be my last post on this topic so let me say all i got to.

people who seperate the cause from the action are not just naive but criminals. if you do not oil your car for years, and once the car engine simply ceases, do you call the car company idiots for designing a car that fails with out warning? no, you connect the fact that you have not been putting oil in the car for so long so it is your fault. not the car's or the manufacturers. so same way if people take the cause from the terrorism away, they say, oh its clear, terrorists and their backers are to blame, kill them all. but you must look at who is the one who has not been true to their covenent. the terrorism of palestinians started in 70s. while israel had been in existance since 48....where the hell were those palestinian terrorists during those times? but no one is gonna change their views, only get more radical in their views, any how i m done with discussing palestinian-israeli issue cuz it will not solve it. i can only pray to allah to punish the criminals of israel such a punishment that no one has been punished with since the creation of the worlds. may allah send a punishment on the criminals of israel a punishment that will serve as a testament to all humanity about the crimes that transgress all bounds. ameen

Well, frankly I don’t see a solution. The Saudi’s had a proposal, but not much real pressure behind it. We have had Oslo I, OsloII, Camp David, “The Road Map”, and any number of other minor intitiatives, all of which get blown to smithereens. There are no diplomatic initiatives left.

So Israel will do it unilaterally. They will pull out from Gaza, build a big wall that will exclude the smaller settlements, and include the big ones. Jerusalem? Right to Return? Who cares? This is an intractable conflict, and the only workable solution is to separate the parties. Good fences make good neighbors.

Now, MyVoice and I went to considerable lengths to propose changes to the WAY that the Palestinians fight, if that is what they choose to do. Look it up. We proposed a media driven war, with the would be suicide bombers engaging in acts of self-immolation, sit-ins, economic targets, and corporate headquarters, gas stations, and infrastructure when empty. The Palestinians are not supported in the US for their TACTICS. People tune out their message because they have advanced the cause of terror more than thier own cause. If they want to coopt the US, they must change tactics so that their story can get out.

And frankly, Arafat is the root of this, the tactics began with his leadership. More than any single individual in the world, he is the father of terror tactics.

The Black September Organization

A Palestinian guerrilla group, The Black September Organization (BSO), claimed responsibility for the killing of the eleven Israeli’s in Munich. The Fatah originated in 1957 and boasted an estimated membership of over 11,000 by the late 1980’s. The United States Department of State’s 1988 publication of Terrorist Group Profiles, describes the Fatah as the military arm of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). Fatah is an acronym spelled backwards representing Harakat al-Tahrir al Filistini. The phrase translates as Palestine Liberation Movement. Former Fatah leader Yasir Arafat (Abu Ammar) assumed leadership of the PLO in 1969. The Fatah utilized the name Black September Organization from approximately 1971 to 1974. Some sources speculate that Arafat utilized the name to distance himself and the PLO from the actions of the BSO. Many terrorist experts speculate that Arafat controlled the BSO and utilized it as his primary military force. Arafat attempted to keep the association at arm’s length to provide a factor of plausible deniability. Black September represents the results of the culmination of tensions between the Fatah and the Jordanian government. In September 1970, King Hussein’s military forced the group out of Jordan and into Lebanon.

When I asked you to give what should be Israel's role in getting to peace in the region... and you wrote this
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
So Israel will do it unilaterally. They will pull out from Gaza, build a big wall that will exclude the smaller settlements, and include the big ones. Jerusalem? Right to Return? Who cares?
[/QUOTE]
Ands still you wonder why Palestinians blow themselves up. And still you crib about their 'Tactics". And still you want to write para after para about Arafat.

My dear sir, the problem is right in front of you. You have written the 'problem', not the 'solution'. And if you can't see that high-handed approach by Israel ever since Sharon came to power is the core of the issue, then there is really no one who can help you understand it. You can crib all you want about Arafat, and no one here will even bother argue. But till you propose an equitable solution, with responsibility on both parties (more on Israel because it is in a position of power) expect no kudos either.

And if Arafat were the sole person standing between a great peace deal and terror, then Israel would have eliminated him long ago. They still can. But they won't. Not because they love him. But because he suits them. Behind this facade they can do whatever they want to destroy and demean a whole Palestinian nation, and know that there are people like you around who will put all the blame on Palestinian TACTICS because Arafat is still alive. Clap clap.

The Palestinian society is no more than tribes now. Who do you negociate with that has any credibility? You want to install a Puppet Government? That goes over real well in Muslim countries. My country (and yours) has spent far TOO much time trying to find a solution. Let them fight it out, and when they are all bloody enough they will find peace.

The real "tell" in all of this is that the Arab countries pay lip service to the Palestinians, but really don't give a crap. Gone are the days when Syrian and Egyptian tanks rolled up to Israels borders. Nobody is that stupid anymore. Arabs will moan about the injustice, but the Palestinians are basically second class citizens to them.

There have been volumes of equitable solutions proposed to this affair. There have been more diplomatic discussions than I care to recount. The fact of the matter is that Isreal is an economic powerhouse, and the Palestinians have not been as clever. You can blame the Israeli's all you want, but they have fought three major wars with Arab states and kicked their arses. Frankly I have never seen an "Islamic" solution. It's your turn. Let Mushy show up with a couple of Moderate pals and try to be the honest brokers. Let the Saudi's do it. Let the UN do it. Let the EU do it. If they can get both parties to agree, then more power to them.

But the real facts are that the Palestinians have lost. The territories are in tatters. The people are suffering, and rather than compromise and come back to a negociating table, they chose to fight. And they are getting the snot kicked out of them. One day they will wake up and realize that the fighting is getting them no where and they will talk again. I consider the ball to be in THEIR court.

And what is this?

"Israel would have eliminated him long ago. They still can. But they won't. Not because they love him. But because he suits them. Behind this facade they can do whatever they want to destroy and demean a whole Palestinian nation,"

So now it's ISRAELs job to get rid of bad Palestinian leaders? Or make him a martyr and insure another century of fighting. I have a clue for you. Most Jews that I know are far more interested in pursueing business, making money and being rich than dominating and destroying Palestinians. It is not that fun. Oddly enough, Israeli's just want to be left alone in their own country. Silly jews.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
.....If they [Palestinians] want to coopt the US, they must change tactics so that their story can get out. .....
[/QUOTE]

It is a mistake to assume that Palestinians want to co-opt USA. Instead they want to hammer, threaten, bully, intimidate, bulldoze, ..... the USA to submission.

All the hijackings, all the attacks in the last 60 years and you still think Palestinians are so lowly and meek to co-opt USA. They have superior Arab blood flowing through their veins and they won’t hesitate to spill it. They want to co-opt Allah and Allah only. They don't even want to live in Palestine. They would rather live in Jannat (heaven).

The flaw in American thinking is that they expect Palestinians to behave like Europeans. Well that ain't happenin in the next 1000 years.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
..... And frankly, Arafat is the root of this, .....
[/QUOTE]

Why just Arafat. The whole of Arab world has not produced a single rational thinking leader in the last 70 years. The last one on record was Saad Zaghlol Pasha in 1936 Egypt (even he is suspected to be mostly Turkish and hence an Ajami). After him the only popular leaders were the leftie, commie dictators. Gama-L Nasir is a prime example. Zhogby poll still proves that Gama is the most popular leader of Arab world. And guess what! The second most popular leader is no other than [drum roll] Saddam Hussain.

Arafat is just a tiny underling among the giants like Gamal and Sad-Damn.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Oddly enough, Israeli's just want to be left alone in their own country. Silly jews.
[/QUOTE]
My heart goes out to these silly jews. Really. Too bad you don't care as much about the silly Palestinians who don't even have their 'own country' where they can be left alone.

They will have their own cozy country. No charge for the walls. Gaza will be the first test. When Israel withdraws we will see how the Palestinians will manage on their own. My guess is they will lapse into anarchy.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
They will have their own cozy country. No charge for the walls. Gaza will be the first test. When Israel withdraws we will see how the Palestinians will manage on their own. My guess is they will lapse into anarchy.
[/QUOTE]

I am sure big brother US will more than eager to liberate if the Palesetinians need any help. Right?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
They will have their own cozy country. No charge for the walls. Gaza will be the first test. When Israel withdraws we will see how the Palestinians will manage on their own. My guess is they will lapse into anarchy.
[/QUOTE]
Not much of a guess, IMO. If you were to require a visa to go from one village to another and on top when you have no employment opportunity in your own village anyway, its not really all that cozy after all. We expect another Ohioguy thread lamenting Palestinian TACTICS and bombing of another Pizza parlor very soon.

[QUOTE]
Third, as discussed in the thread which you cannot find, the IDF commander was turned in by his own soldiers, and faces prison. When the PA does that we will talk...
[/QUOTE]

OG once again you are talking without any information. The Pakistan Army does do that when something goes wrong. Its just that our army doesen't aim for and shoot children so the issue of reporting a disciplining officers does not make the world news.

There are many instances where young Captains or Liuetenants have been disciplined for misbehaving with civilians based on reports from thier soldiers. Maybe you want to read the conduct reports, copies of which I am sure are present in the Pentagon Library. I can give you one specific example of a captain from AK regiment serving life imprisonment in Haripur Jail for murder who was turned in by one his driver because he killed someone based on family enmity.

^^

:hehe:

By PA, he meant “Palestinian Authority” :slight_smile:

:D Although there is hardly anything to laugh about, but mufakkar's vigorous defence of Pakistan Army must be applauded.

Muffakar my friend,

In the future I will avoid abbreviations.

A very impassioned defense though......

:)