I think rather than argue about what we can disagree on let's talk about what we can agree on. The clearest reason why I believe Ahmadis were treated with such mallice and why Ismailis were not was due to a number of matters.
1) Ismailis were in a position where their donations were pinnacle in helping the establishment of Pakistan. One does not bite the hand that feeds it.
2) Ismailis were already praying/associated to different religious establishments and did not intermingle or try to be part of the mainstream groups. The Ahmadis on the other hand started off in this manner.
3) The outward behaviour of the Ismailis is alien to the mainstream groups, but on conversation with them their beliefs are not too far from what established (Shi'a) sects already believe. However, in the case of the Ahmadi sect it may have been considered important to make a distinction from them because they resembled the mainstream in outward behaviour so much but it was their beliefs that were very different.
Good points.
First off --- Thank you, Thank you to the mods for correcting the subject line.
I agree that Ismailis are a branch off of the "mainstream" Shias.
They have been around for MUCH MUCH longer compared to Ahmadis.
Remember that the evolutionary steps and time frame for any new religion / aqeeda / mazhab
---- First 100 years are difficult for any Aqeeda. Lots of persecution happens.
---- Then the next 100 years are "becoming mainstream".
---- In year 200+ the aqeeda becomes accepted in this world.
---- In the "formative 200 years", the aqeeda goes through a lot of changes in order to become "mainstream".
So Ahmadis are on well on their way to becoming a full fledged religion / aqeeda by 2100.
No one can predict how will the Ahmadiya aqeeda may look like by 2100+. they may move away from using the word "nabi" for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Or it may go in the opposite direction.
Ismailis win for another important reason. They are NOT "Convertors", they do not go out and openly ask people to come join their faith via direct conversion or through marriages.
Why should Pakistan make such a step? In an even more religious society, incorporating state discrimination against all Shias, Saudi Arabia, Ismailis are still legally classified as Shia Muslims; they have always been allowed to enter Mecca with other Muslims, and indeed in June the Saudi government even handed over 1200 squared kilometers of land to its Ismaili community.
Declaring someone non-Muslim is such as major issue (I believe that hadith state that labelling a muslim as a non-muslim is as serious as killing him) that the many Ulema don't want to do it. This is why you don't see Pakistan's religious parties trying to rally people against any sect anymore.
In the case of Ahmadis, their open preaching to Sunni Muslims and attempts to convert them in the decades leading up to the 70s turned sunni ulema against them as they were visibly, actively using the similarities to sunni belief to try and turn people away from Sunni Isam. In that, ulema were forced to act and rally the people against Ahmadis.
In the case of Ismailis, they generally leave other Muslims alone and don't try to spread their beliefs to other Muslims, so I think most ulema have no motivation to step in and give a declaration which, if they get it wrong, would have serious consequences for themselves. I've seen a number of fatwas where relatively prominent sheikhs are directly asked if ismailis as Muslim, and respond with evasive answers which basically give the characteristics of Muslims and in effect tell the person to go check for themselves if ismailis have these characteristics.
Will you please specify which Ayat No is this in Sura Yaseen?????
this is in the quran...i dont remember the specific verses.. teh arabic words are "wa kula shaiyin ah-saina hu -fi imam-um-mubin".. sunnis translate imam as kitab to reject the aqidah of imamat...
Privately, I still think that by saying the outward of Ismailis being different yet the beliefs being similar is a statement of fact and should not be attached to any emotion. You can say it other way round if you like, that Sunnis are alien to Ismaili but that sounds odd because Ismailis are not the recognised standard of Islam because they are a break away sect of a break away sect. Again this is fact and no emotion should be attached to this. I am not making any claim here that a break away sect is wrong for simply being a break away sect.
again, thats just your view n it may or may not be correct.. for u, shias r a breakaway sect.. for us ismailis, sunnis r a breakaway sect.. just because sunnis r in a majority n believe they r right doesnt make them the "standard" sect.. u can make billions of second-hand chinese sony electronics n only a few real sony eloctronics from japan.. that's still gonna leave the japanese sony electronics as the standard and original ones... that's just a comparison n i'm not saying that i'm right n u r wrong.. we don't call others wrong but rather say that their aqeedah is different than ours..
SIR, have you read my previous posts?? i dont think so coz if u had, then u wouldnt be presenting this IDIOTIC analysis.. i have already mentioned that the ISMAILI CONSTITUTION IS WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN WHICH STATES OUR FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS.. IF THEY HAD TO, THEY WOULD HAVE DECLARED US NON- MUSLIMS LOOOOOOONG AGO... BUT WHAT CAN THE FIND THAT WILL DECLARE US NON-MUSLIM?? NOTHING.. n btw, how stupid would i sound TO YOU when i would say " WAHABIS HAVENT BEEN DECLARED NON-MUSLIMS IN PAKISTAN BECAUSE WE GET FUNDS FROM SAUDI ARABIA N WHICH IN TURN IS BACKED BY THE U.S. N THEY R ALSO STRONG IN PAKSITANI POLITICS..." i hope you get my point..
I have few questions, if you dont mind answering
1) Is this "ISMAILI CONSTITUTION" available online. ?
2) and which govt department you handed over to, to study?
3) Did the govt personal/committee really studied it or they dont have enough understanding to understand what you wrote? I dont believe in people like Zardari - they might even dont know what is his Kalima.
4) who wrote your "ISMAILI CONSTITUTION". Your Imam or some forum?
5) There are different sects in Ismalis? which specific sect you are talking about?
I have few concerns about Qadiyanis but i will ask in appropriate thread.
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In the case of Ahmadis, their open preaching to Sunni Muslims and attempts to convert them in the decades leading up to the 70s turned sunni ulema against them as they were visibly, actively using the similarities to sunni belief to try and turn people away from Sunni Isam. In that, ulema were forced to act and rally the people against Ahmadis....
Oh Bhai meray. even though agree with the part of conversion effort by Ahmadis.
It is wrong to say the conversion was the MAIN motivating factor of Mullah-led-anarchy of 1950-1970.
Whatever conversions Ahmadis were doing were NOt successful. IN the time of 50-70 years of preaching, Ahmadis still were a TINY TINY minority.
Thus it was WRONG for the Mullahs to attack, loot, and kill a minority group. Pakistanis must understand that we have to draw a line to control our anarchist behaviors.
We should never allow beating, burning, beheading etc. in the name of Islam. PERIOD.
Isn't it ironic that the same Ulima forget that they can go to other countries and other religions and convert people to Islam.
Then why do they create violence and terror against others doing the SAME thing. This is called Munafiqana behavior at best.
I think neither Ahmedi, nor Ismaili Pakistani need to defend their beliefs here.
Especially Ahmedi Pakistani were never even part of the discussion from beginning but just jumped in to it because perhaps they were at the receiving end of this fiasco.
The fundamental question was why Ismailies were not declared non-muslims?
I say without prejudice, favor, or reservation,
Why not declare those so called 'muslims', **non-muslims or even not-muslims altogether, ***who engage in non-islamic activities day in and day out ?*
First settle this issue befor even discussing this baseless question further.
Someone in Mods team is very brilliant and sensible. I did not like the first change either with a question in it and it did not convey the real message.
I just noticed the second change in the title which is so neutral and great........... Great job.
1) Is this "ISMAILI CONSTITUTION" available online. ?
2) and which govt department you handed over to, to study?
3) Did the govt personal/committee really studied it or they dont have enough understanding to understand what you wrote? I dont believe in people like Zardari - they might even dont know what is his Kalima.
4) who wrote your "ISMAILI CONSTITUTION". Your Imam or some forum?
5) There are different sects in Ismalis? which specific sect you are talking about?
I have few concerns about Qadiyanis but i will ask in appropriate thread.
ok my answers now:
1) i don't think the ismaili constitution is available online... u can ask abt ismaili beliefs from ismailis themselves..
2) i'm not sure but most probably department of religious affairs.. i know one thing for sure that it has not been given to the state to study.. coz they cant tell us what changes to make... its just been given for the record...
3) i'm sure its been given to the the ministry of religious affairs.. n again we havent given it to the government so that they can make changes.. its just been given as the general information of the govt... if they dont like it, not my problem..
4) the ismaili constitution comes from imam's approval..
ok my answers now:
1) i don't think the ismaili constitution is available online... u can ask abt ismaili beliefs from ismailis themselves..
2) i'm not sure but most probably department of religious affairs.. i know one thing for sure that it has not been given to the state to study.. coz they cant tell us what changes to make... its just been given for the record...
3) i'm sure its been given to the the ministry of religious affairs.. n again we havent given it to the government so that they can make changes.. its just been given as the general information of the govt... if they dont like it, not my problem..
4) the ismaili constitution comes from imam's approval..
5) ismailis are just one sect....
I dont want the govt or anybody else to "MAKE CHANGES" in Ismaili Constitution. How did you feel that i meant that?
As per my understanding there are be different sect in Ismailies, in past and in present time also.
Daudi Bohra are also Ismailis
daudi bohras are a part of the larger ismaili sect, its just that most ppl call them bohra rather than ismaili.. just likewe r mostly called ismailis rather than shias.. druze r also a part of the ismaili sect.. bohras n druze make up 10 percent of ismailis. we make up the rest..
daudi bohras are a part of the larger ismaili sect, its just that most ppl call them bohra rather than ismaili.. just likewe r mostly called ismailis rather than shias.. druze r also a part of the ismaili sect.. bohras n druze make up 10 percent of ismailis. we make up the rest..
And what is the total population of Ismailis in the world? And in individual countries? Like e,g say Pakistan, Iran, Lebanon etc.
And what is the total population of Ismailis in the world? And in individual countries? Like e,g say Pakistan, Iran, Lebanon etc.
i think including bohras n druze, its about 12 to 13 million around the world.. the ismailis (aga khanis) i belong to are around 10 to 11 million.. meaning 1-1.3 crores.. i could be wrong.. it could even be around 15 million (1.5 crore).. i think pakistan has the largest ismaili population.. ismailis mostly are found in northern areas, chitral and karachi.. ismailis in syria are mostly found in salamiya city.. ismailis in india are spread all over the country but i think the majority lives in and around gujurat.. in tajikistan, the badakshan province has ismaili majority.. around 2 lakhs.. in afghanistan, mostly hazaras r ismailis.. in china, ethnic tajiks r ismailis (around 50 thousands to 1 lakh).. there r many ismailis in the U.S, Canada n Europe (around 3 lakhs combined, im not sure) in africa, ismailis r mostly in east africa (kenya, tanzania, uganda etc..) the african ismailis r indian n pakistani (all of gujarati heritage) migrants.. many iranian ismails hav migrated to other countries due to persecution.. ALL THE ABOVE FIGURES R AN ESTIMATE.. I COULD BE WRONG.. BUT MORE OR LESS, THEY R TRUE..
u contradict earlier u said ; "ismailis are just one sect" now u are saying that there 2 more sects "bohras n druze".
it means there are 3 sects in Ismailis at present (1) ismailis-bohras (2) ismailis-druze and (3) ismailis-Agha khanis
and only ismailis-Agha khanis gave there constitution to govt. they r not responsible for other 2 sects.
just like aga khani-ismailis r commonly called only ismailis n NOT SHIA ISMAILIS, in the same way bohras n druze r called with their names rather than ismaili bohra or ismaili druze.....
n ismaili agakhanis r not responsible for the other two sects coz their beliefs r different from ours.. they dont believe in the same imam as we do..
whenever there will be a political requirement they will be. Mullahs are only a pressure group, whenever somebody like buttho wants to use it. it will be used. otherwise it will be kept aside.
if we were allowed to use curse words on GS, i'd have cursed u out rite now... n u, my friend, r a LOSER... n for your information, land for aga khan hospital was given by zia-ul-haq.. FOR FREE... yes, zia-ul-haq.. the most conservative of all presidents...only ignorants lik u think that ismailis r on your mercy... wake up.. they're not..