re: Are Ismaili declared as non-muslim in pakistan?
The time you spend on thinking who shoudl be delcared non-muslim would be better spent on behaving like a better human being..
Sari duniya ka theka leke baithe hain kuchh log
This is OFF topic perhaps but i'll go ahead with it.
I don't know when our Prophet (P.B.U.H) authorized such Imams! Can u shed some light on that please.
Also... according to ur statement, if the so called imams had the final authority... this means that the last available imam can interpret Quran Al Kareem according to his mood, then what about the interpretations of Hazrat Ali (RA)? If he has the final authority then he has the authority to ammend any interpretation according to his thinking stream. Isn't that a bit rude to your first Imam Hazrat Ali (RA)?
i think its been quoted athousand times... Holy Prophet S.A.W said "whoever's i am maula Ali is his maula too." and for your information, imam doesn't interpret the quran according to his own "mood"... he does what is right because he is the rightful successor of the previous imams.. n the interpretations do not go against the interpretations of any of the previous imams... THE MAIN THING IS THE INTERPRETATION OF HOLY QURAN ACCORDING TO THE TIME WE LIVE IN!!!
re: Are Ismaili declared as non-muslim in pakistan?
FOR ALL WHO ARE WONDERING WHY ISMAILIS HAVEN'T BEEN DECLARED NON-MUSLIMS IN ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS BECAUSE WE HAVE OUR ISMAILI CONSTITUTION GIVEN TO THE GOVERNMENTS OF THE COUNTRIES WE LIVE IN... IT EXPLAINS ALL OUR FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS. THERES ONE WITH THE PAKISTANI GOVERNMENT TOO. SO, THEY THINK WE ARE AS MUSLIMS AS ANY OTHER SECT.. GUD ENOUGH ANSWER??? AND ANYONE WHO WANTS TO KNOW ABOUT OUR FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS CAN ASK ME OR IF I AM NOT GUD ENOUGH THEN GO TALK TO OUR RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES..
re: Are Ismaili declared as non-muslim in pakistan?
i wonder why many ppl r so immature.. i mean even I, a 17 year old boy am more mature than than many who come up wid silly questions on the forums here...
i wonder why many ppl r so immature.. i mean even I, a 17 year old boy am more mature than than many who come up wid silly questions on the forums here...
Yes. Age and maturity are two completely different things.
Yes diwana Sahib............the renaissance...........it happened while back
Chal way Bullia outhay chaliya
jithay saray Uhnnay
na koi kissay de Zaat pehchanay
Na kisay nu Mannay!
let's go O' Bulleh Shah to the place
where all are blind to differences
**they do not care about peoples Cast **
an niether adhere to anyone
Nice poetry.
Nothing practical though.
Its funny and a bit amusing to see Non-Muslims jig into discussions when the discussions targets Muslim Fraternity. How delightful.
Funny and amusing to see people who are not even half muslims judging others to be muslims or not! How delightful.
What is muslim fraternity by the way? A new name for sectarian division and basis of hatred?
One wonders why our "trigger happy" mods have not corrected the subject line?
.........
But for Allah's sake, correct the heading.
Thank you.
Yes, title is completely misleading and needs editing.
i think its been quoted athousand times... Holy Prophet S.A.W said "whoever's i am maula Ali is his maula too." and for your information, imam doesn't interpret the quran according to his own "mood"... he does what is right because he is the rightful successor of the previous imams.. n the interpretations do not go against the interpretations of any of the previous imams... THE MAIN THING IS THE INTERPRETATION OF HOLY QURAN ACCORDING TO THE TIME WE LIVE IN!!!
Why? When did Allah SWT said that it should be a necessary approach?
Funny and amusing to see people who are not even half muslims judging others to be muslims or not! How delightful.
What is muslim fraternity by the way? A new name for sectarian division and basis of hatred?
So u are considering urself as the Complete package or that 'half Muslim' ...
Because even a half Muslim is better than a Non... don't u agree?
In a non-secular state where Head of the State & the Head of the Government can only be muslims it is a fundamental responsibilityof the state to define who is a muslim strictly from a legal perspective
Well the state has not defined who a muslim is. The reason being those esteemed knowledgeable "scholars" that you guys give so much authority can't agree on a definition. The heads of state and government only being muslims goes against the constitution but then again who gives a dime about the constitution.
To the thread opened: How about the government with its army of mullahs focus on some of the more urgent problems facing the nation. I mean a child trafficar, a murderer, one who takes the property of orphans are all muslims by virtue of the fact that they were born in ahl-e-sunnah wal jamaa but those who are law abiding citizens and have contributed a lot towards the country are non-muslims just because they hold certain beliefs (and before people start jumping all over the place about ahmadis, i'm referring to ismailies :p). Come on man. There is very little, if any, islam left in pakistani society so lets start focusing on bringing islam into pakistanis, instead of kicking people out of islam.
So u are considering urself as the Complete package or that 'half Muslim' ... Because even a half Muslim is better than a Non... don't u agree?
Glad that you agree half or less muslim is a reality. These are muslims who have left the essentials and are clinging to rituals only.
There is nothing that can be said good about half muslims.
Quran urges people to enter in to islam completely. Both Huqooqullah and huqooqul-ibad need to be followed.
Like I mentioned, robbery, murder, theft, unhealthy and unclean environment, greed etc. need attention more than passing fatwas.
When was the last time you heard a scholar or group of scholars emphasizing these or using political platform to rid the society from these weaknesses?
Many of them are in power, parliment and eating off the tax money.
BUT
They are no where to be found when people are protesting for lack of electricity or basic services. ** Yes.** They want to be busy passing fatwas!!!
Well the state has not defined who a muslim is. The reason being those esteemed knowledgeable "scholars" that you guys give so much authority can't agree on a definition. The heads of state and government only being muslims goes against the constitution but then again who gives a dime about the constitution.
Exactly!. Right on.
Re: Are Ismaili declared as non-muslim in pakistan?
Peace All
I think rather than argue about what we can disagree on let's talk about what we can agree on. The clearest reason why I believe Ahmadis were treated with such mallice and why Ismailis were not was due to a number of matters.
1) Ismailis were in a position where their donations were pinnacle in helping the establishment of Pakistan. One does not bite the hand that feeds it.
2) Ismailis were already praying/associated to different religious establishments and did not intermingle or try to be part of the mainstream groups. The Ahmadis on the other hand started off in this manner.
3) The outward behaviour of the Ismailis is alien to the mainstream groups, but on conversation with them their beliefs are not too far from what established (Shi'a) sects already believe. However, in the case of the Ahmadi sect it may have been considered important to make a distinction from them because they resembled the mainstream in outward behaviour so much but it was their beliefs that were very different.
Why? When did Allah SWT said that it should be a necessary approach?
Allah SWT has said in surah yaseen (heart of quran) : "hum ney tamam cheezen imam-i-zahir main samo dee hain"... that is the most clear cut need for an imam.. there r other things that we did n Allah SWT never mentioned their necessity n we still did them... like the compilation of the Holy Quran in abook form.. im not sayin its bad but Allah SWT never said its a necessary approach.. if the need for an imam was unnecassary to interpret the holy quran, then we can see what can happen.. remember the kharijites.. n not to forget the present day taliban..
Peace All
I think rather than argue about what we can disagree on let's talk about what we can agree on. The clearest reason why I believe Ahmadis were treated with such mallice and why Ismailis were not was due to a number of matters.
1) Ismailis were in a position where their donations were pinnacle in helping the establishment of Pakistan. One does not bite the hand that feeds it.
2) Ismailis were already praying/associated to different religious establishments and did not intermingle or try to be part of the mainstream groups. The Ahmadis on the other hand started off in this manner.
3) The outward behaviour of the Ismailis is alien to the mainstream groups, but on conversation with them their beliefs are not too far from what established (Shi'a) sects already believe. However, in the case of the Ahmadi sect it may have been considered important to make a distinction from them because they resembled the mainstream in outward behaviour so much but it was their beliefs that were very different.
SIR, have you read my previous posts?? i dont think so coz if u had, then u wouldnt be presenting this IDIOTIC analysis.. i have already mentioned that the ISMAILI CONSTITUTION IS WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN WHICH STATES OUR FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS.. IF THEY HAD TO, THEY WOULD HAVE DECLARED US NON- MUSLIMS LOOOOOOONG AGO... BUT WHAT CAN THE FIND THAT WILL DECLARE US NON-MUSLIM?? NOTHING.. n btw, how stupid would i sound TO YOU when i would say " WAHABIS HAVENT BEEN DECLARED NON-MUSLIMS IN PAKISTAN BECAUSE WE GET FUNDS FROM SAUDI ARABIA N WHICH IN TURN IS BACKED BY THE U.S. N THEY R ALSO STRONG IN PAKSITANI POLITICS..." i hope you get my point..
SIR, have you read my previous posts?? i dont think so coz if u had, then u wouldnt be presenting this IDIOTIC analysis.. i have already mentioned that the ISMAILI CONSTITUTION IS WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN WHICH STATES OUR FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS.. IF THEY HAD TO, THEY WOULD HAVE DECLARED US NON- MUSLIMS LOOOOOOONG AGO... BUT WHAT CAN THE FIND THAT WILL DECLARE US NON-MUSLIM?? NOTHING.. n btw, how stupid would i sound TO YOU when i would say " WAHABIS HAVENT BEEN DECLARED NON-MUSLIMS IN PAKISTAN BECAUSE WE GET FUNDS FROM SAUDI ARABIA N WHICH IN TURN IS BACKED BY THE U.S. N THEY R ALSO STRONG IN PAKSITANI POLITICS..." i hope you get my point..
Peace a-town boy
No I don't understand your point really, please explain it further. You can also take off your caps lock key, or it can be perceived as though you are shouting at me. Please read my point number 3 above again ... I hope you will find it in your favour.
Peace a-town boy
No I don't understand your point really, please explain it further. You can also take off your caps lock key, or it can be perceived as though you are shouting at me. Please read my point number 3 above again ... I hope you will find it in your favour.
peace psyah,
first of all, i apologize :) coz u got offended by me using caps lock.. i in no way intend to shout at u or anyone else.. i use caps lock so that one pays more attention to my posts while reading..
sir i couldnt find post number 3 in the favor of ismailis.. u have said that the outward behavior of ismailis is alien to the mainstream n so on...this, even if not intended, directs the point to the way that ismailis r wrong n the mainstream is right.. well, the outward behavior n beliefs of sunnis is alien to us.. but their beliefs r not too far from other muslims.. how about that?? does that sound like its in your favor??
n what i mentioned earlier in my post(s) was that the pakistani government has the ismaili constution (as hav all other countries in which ismailis live) which contains our beliefs.. if there was anthin wrong wid our beliefs, then we should hav been declared as non-muslims like jamaat-i-ahmadiyya.. n btw i'm not in favor of ahmadis or any other sect being declared as non-muslims.. we should leave it upon Allah SWT to punish the false ones upon their judgement.. PERIOD. if we think they r wrong, thats arite. we should keep it to ourselves rather than trying to become the "final verdict" on religion.. what did we get by declaring our own pakistani brothers as non-muslims???
peace psyah, first of all, i apologize :) coz u got offended by me using caps lock.. i in no way intend to shout at u or anyone else.. i use caps lock so that one pays more attention to my posts while reading..
sir i couldnt find post number 3 in the favor of ismailis.. u have said that the outward behavior of ismailis is alien to the mainstream n so on...this, even if not intended, directs the point to the way that ismailis r wrong n the mainstream is right.. well, the outward behavior n beliefs of sunnis is alien to us.. but their beliefs r not too far from other muslims.. how about that?? does that sound like its in your favor??
n what i mentioned earlier in my post(s) was that the pakistani government has the ismaili constution (as hav all other countries in which ismailis live) which contains our beliefs.. if there was anthin wrong wid our beliefs, then we should hav been declared as non-muslims like jamaat-i-ahmadiyya.. n btw i'm not in favor of ahmadis or any other sect being declared as non-muslims.. we should leave it upon Allah SWT to punish the false ones upon their judgement.. PERIOD. if we think they r wrong, thats arite. we should keep it to ourselves rather than trying to become the "final verdict" on religion.. what did we get by declaring our own pakistani brothers as non-muslims???
Peace again a-town boy
I am humbled by your apology and I too offer the likes, but insist you do not need to make this gesture I have been tactless with my words.
I hear what you say and typically agree with it not having changed my opinion. I was speaking initially to answer the question "why the Pak gov did such and such ..." whether they were right to do so or not the reasons I gave I believe are accurate. I also believe that it is up to Allah (SWT) to decide, but it is up to us to preserve Islam as vicegerents on Earth.
Privately, I still think that by saying the outward of Ismailis being different yet the beliefs being similar is a statement of fact and should not be attached to any emotion. You can say it other way round if you like, that Sunnis are alien to Ismaili but that sounds odd because Ismailis are not the recognised standard of Islam because they are a break away sect of a break away sect. Again this is fact and no emotion should be attached to this. I am not making any claim here that a break away sect is wrong for simply being a break away sect.
The way this has been done in the past was by the formulation of 'aqidah which is definitive principles that Muslims must adhere to any variation from those principles need careful thought and justification. As far as I am concerned a person who believes in One God and acknowledges that Muhammad (SAW) is the final messenger upon whom direct revelation (The Word of God) was sealed, is a Muslim.
Other forms of Guidance, such as dreams and Islamic sciences to arrive at truth is current today at the disposal of pious and learned people. The interpretation of the Sahabah takes priority over our own, and the adhesion to tradition is better than the guess work of technology. This is the specific strain of Islam that I believe is correct, but not such that it makes other forms obsolete or so incorrect that they fall outside Islam.
Allah SWT has said in surah yaseen (heart of quran) : "hum ney tamam cheezen imam-i-zahir main samo dee hain"... .
Will you please specify which Ayat No is this in Sura Yaseen?????