im aga khani... n we believe that quran is NOT a limited scripture.. its for all times.. the one who can interpret the quran best is the imam of the time who is our 49th imam now... u guys know him as aga khan(the fourth). QURAN CANNOT BE AMENDED.. you r wrong, we only believe in him as an imam just like we do in hazrat ali A.S n all his successors... he is the final verdict as hazrat Ali A.S during his imamat was.. Hazrat Muhammad S.A.W called Hazrat Ali A.S as Quran-i-Natiq meaning talking quran.. it doesnt mean that hazrat ali A.S n all following imams r quran (nauzobillah) but it means that they have the final authority to interpret the quran because they r the succsssors of Rasoolullah S.A.W not as prophets but as imams.... DO U GET ALL I WROTE??? IF NOT, THEN ASK MORE..
i get that. thank you.
so Islmaili/Aga Khani is a branch of Shia sect then? Are you similar to twelvers?
btw, why dunt Ismaili pray Namaz - which is one of the main pillar of islam, do sajda to mazaars - ive seen with my own eyes Ismaili do sajda to the mazaar of Imam Hussain in cairo at Imam Hussain Mosque yet As a whole Islamic Ummah belives sajda is only for Allah swt, these two things could anyone clarify for now which are basic and if we go deeep, whats the aqeedah of ismaili on fate, good, bad etc.
Just for you clarification, many Hanafi Muslims do Sajda to Quboor in Pakistan. Just go to any so called URS ( You will find many in Pakistan) and see what our Muslemeen are doing there.
so Islmaili/Aga Khani is a branch of Shia sect then? Are you similar to twelvers?
:) thanx for understanding..well yea.. us and the twelvers believe in the same imams till imam jafar sadiq (A.S).. after that, they believe in musa kazim as the next imam n we believe in imam ismail A.S as the next imam.. both were sons of imam jafar sadiq (A.S)..
I, as an Ahmadi Muslim have no problem whatsoever if someone openly says that He is Muslim. My chest expands with pride when someone says s/he is the firm believer of Islam and love the holiest prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaehe wassalam)...Surely, we will have different opinions and some belief difference within Islam.. but declaring you non-muslim is something i have no right or strength of.
absolutely agreed. i mean i have no strength n harshness or right to call someone a non-muslim except of course the enemies of Huzoor S.A.W and ahl-e-bait (A.S) like yazeed... n calling ahamdis as non-muslims, i think that should be left upon Allah Himself to decide.. if they want to be muslims, what harm does it do to me.. its not lik they r forcing me to be an ahmadi.. the court decision was more of a political one..
Just a clarification, Pakistan is not the only nation to have declared Ahmadiyya Movement and its followers as non-muslims. The same has been done in some african nations which are secular (namely Cape Town), thus making it somewhat of an international verdict because now more than 1 nation has done it.
TO: sorry for going off-topic there, i too don't know the exact details but it would be interesting to learn more.
WIth due apologies, this is utter nonsense.
Firstly, Cape Town is a town which is part of the Western Cape and not an independent country. SA is all about religious, cultural and ethnic tolerance. They have gay rights as well and you are telling us that they will indulge in declaring someone Muslim or non-Muslim.
Firstly, Cape Town is a town which is part of the Western Cape and not an independent country. SA is all about religious, cultural and ethnic tolerance. They have gay rights as well and you are telling us that they will indulge in declaring someone Muslim or non-Muslim.
You are ill informed at best.
Look, i don't wish to derail the thread because the thread starter is interested in something else. But to answer briefly, with all due respect just as well, Pakistani mainstream muslims aren't the only community to have passed such ruling against Qadianis. Cape Town case can be studied, and the outcome is same as that of declaration of Pakistan Supreme court, a similar ruling was passed in Saudi Arabia.
Again, i'm not presenting my own opinion here, just stating the facts that are out there.
PS: You're right Cape Town is not a nation by itself. My mistake, the point i was trying to emphasis is that of a community other than Pakistani.
And the only reason i even say this is because other communities somehow get the pass on this issue, and Pakistan get the grilling every time Qadianis are mentioned in the light of Mainstream Islam. Other communities feel the same way as mainstream Pakistanis, so it looks like a universal verdict if you look at the bigger picture. that's all...
Im all calmed. So, Pakistan is the only country in that regard?..do you agree? if not, please name any other muslim nation.
Do you agree with me when i say that Pakistan has no authority to declare anyone Muslim or non-Muslim?
Dont analyze this scenario strictly from a Qadyani perspective, analyze it from the perpspective of the principled position of the Ummah on the fundamental beliefs belieiving on which remove this creed out of the fold of Islam
As matter of Principle i.e. whether a belief that there will be other prophets after our holy prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH is permissible in islam or not, there has been unanimous consensus amongst the entire muslim Ummah , from the time of Sahabas(the first false prophets emerged during the time of Hazrat Abu Bakar RA) upto this present age that holding such a belief removes one from the fold of Islam, I dont think this is the place to discuss whether this belief is right or wrong or that whether declaring someone non-muslim if he holds such a belief is justified or not.., the important thing is that there is absolute unanimity in Ummah on this principle ... can you quote any mainstream Islamic denomination which considers that it is possible for another human being born after our holy prophet PBUH to be bestowed with the honor of Prophethood ?
Please dont try to prove whether your belief is right or wrong just quote the mainstream denomination across the 1400 year time-space dimensions that allow such a belief.
The reason why the specific declaration was made in Pakistan was that it was a Pakistani Problem..., there have been other false prophets & their believers in other muslim countries at different periods of time & on every occasion they were declared Murtads & dealt with according to the injunctions of Shariat on the subject of false prophets, since Qadyaniat was a fitna that emerged in Qadyan Punjab of British India & most of its believers come from India & Pakistan, Qadyaniat (not the fundamental principles) was strictly a local issue & the government took the action on this matter upon a mass public movement on this topic.
To answer you Das Reich...It is not state's responsibility to pronounce takfir.
In a non-secular state where Head of the State & the Head of the Government can only be muslims it is a fundamental responsibilityof the state to define who is a muslim strictly from a legal perspective
im aga khani... n we believe that quran is NOT a limited scripture.. its for all times.. the one who can interpret the quran best is the imam of the time who is our 49th imam now... u guys know him as aga khan(the fourth). QURAN CANNOT BE AMENDED.. you r wrong, we only believe in him as an imam just like we do in hazrat ali A.S n all his successors... he is the final verdict as hazrat Ali A.S during his imamat was.. Hazrat Muhammad S.A.W called Hazrat Ali A.S as Quran-i-Natiq meaning talking quran.. it doesnt mean that hazrat ali A.S n all following imams r quran (nauzobillah) but it means that they have the final authority to interpret the quran because they r the succsssors of Rasoolullah S.A.W not as prophets but as imams.... DO U GET ALL I WROTE??? IF NOT, THEN ASK MORE..
This is OFF topic perhaps but i'll go ahead with it.
I don't know when our Prophet (P.B.U.H) authorized such Imams! Can u shed some light on that please.
Also... according to ur statement, if the so called imams had the final authority... this means that the last available imam can interpret Quran Al Kareem according to his mood, then what about the interpretations of Hazrat Ali (RA)? If he has the final authority then he has the authority to ammend any interpretation according to his thinking stream. Isn't that a bit rude to your first Imam Hazrat Ali (RA)?
One wonders why our "trigger happy" mods have not corrected the subject line?
Why this prejudiced thread is being allowed to stay even when the subject is utterly misleading?
What if somebody would have mischievously posted something with the subject line
"Wahabis declared non-Muslims in Pakistan"
Then cowardly discussing the subject as "Why Wahabis should not be declared Kafirs"?
What is WRONG with us? Have we lost every ounce of decency in the name of religious zealotry?
Mods, please correct the subject line that truly reflects the discussion. I know this thread will not be closed. Because it is not attacking Saudi Arabian Islam or the Iranian Islam.
absolutely agreed. i mean i have no strength n harshness or right to call someone a non-muslim except of course the enemies of Huzoor S.A.W and ahl-e-bait (A.S) like yazeed... n calling ahamdis as non-muslims, i think that should be left upon Allah Himself to decide.. if they want to be muslims, what harm does it do to me.. its not lik they r forcing me to be an ahmadi.. the court decision was more of a political one..
In the here-after each & every person will be judged based on his own beliefs & his amaal, his association to a particular group or sect will not in itself guarantee anything for him/her, however at the same time it is important to define what set of fundamental beliefs constitute the islamic doctrine or believing in which ideas dispels one from the fold of Islam PURELY in LEGAL parlance, No one can pronounce someone as Janati aur Jahanammi.., thats only for Allah to decide in the hereafter, However since in an 'Islamic State' there is a distinction of jurisdiction on 'Muslims' & 'Non-Muslims' so it is not only permissible but perhaps even required from theologicians to define the concept of Muslim in ambigious terms for in the absence of this the jurispudence of an Ideal Islamic State is incomplete.
The day Pakistan start thinking that these are actually religious steps and responsibilities not really political that that day will be a step towards betterment.
Its Ok to defend Pakistan but what good does it do to anyone in the world to try to inflame people?
I don’t think Pakistan is getting full of good muslims to even start this line of thought.
**The scenario is as follows.
A to B: You are Kaafir.
B to A: Excuse me. I am muslim. YOU are Kaafir.
A to B: Not only you are Kaafir but C is also Kaafir.
C to A: Are you talking about me? Are you sure you are muslim your self?
D to All: I am glad I was not considered Kaafir.
A to D: I will declare you kaafir in a minute. Let me talk to others first.**
Yep This is what we want to see in Pakistan. The God given authority to Pakistani ‘supreme’ court judging everyone.
The day Pakistan start thinking that these are actually religious steps and responsibilities not really political that that day will be a step towards betterment.
Its Ok to defend Pakistan but what good does it do to anyone in the world to try to inflame people?
I don't think Pakistan is getting full of good muslims to even start this line of thought.
The scenario is as follows.
A to B: You are Kaafir.
B to A: Excuse me. I am muslim. YOU are Kaafir.
A to B: Not only you are Kaafir but C is also Kaafir.
C to A: Are you talking about me? Are you sure you are muslim your self?
D to All: I am glad I was not considered Kaafir.
A to D: I will declare you kaafir in a minute. Let me talk to others first.
Yep This is what we want to see in Pakistan. The God given authority to Pakistani 'supreme' court judging everyone.
Is this 'medieval time' for Pakistan or what?
When will be its renaissance?
Yes diwana Sahib............the renaissance...........it happened while back
Chal way Bullia outhay chaliya
jithay saray Uhnnay
na koi kissay de Zaat pehchanay
Na kisay nu Mannay!
let's go O' Bulleh Shah to the place
** where all are blind to differences
** **they do not care about peoples Cast **
** an niether adhere to anyone
re: Are Ismaili declared as non-muslim in pakistan?
i think when the following words when applied to the muslims, for example, Kafir, mushreek and Bidha it is the end of the day. ie youmey Quahmaa. We no longer call kafir a Kafir and mushreek a mushreek. We call our muslim brothers by there titles. To kill a muslim by a muslims and promote this act is the biggest act of terrarism. Because you are defying the teaching of the Qu'ran and Prophet Muhammed (saw). Who can be the most astray person than the one who denies these two authraties. To kill your muslim brother and to use the excuse that we trying to "teach muslim the right brand of Islam" is hypocracy.
please the people of pakistan move away from the agruments of secterianism and remain loyal to Allah and his beloved Prophet Mohammed (was).
Talbeer=Allahu akbar=Lahilaha illalla
Resaalat=Yaa Rasullah=Mohammedur rasullah
This is how we should think and move forward together.
Then why you became angry when I pointed it out in one thread that this may be Qadiani Aqeedah??? when you are in fact a Qadyani.
what i said there had nothing to do with me being an Ahmadi Muslim. I said it was my personal belief.. you still couldnt come up with anything to prove me wrong.
First of all, you are ABSOLUTELY wrong about this being the unanimous decision among all Muslims since the time of Holy Prophet (SAW). On the contrary, there have been a number of Ulema and Aulia who have believed otherwise. I found this clip on YouTube about Maulana Qasim Nanotvi (founder of Deobandi school of thought):
Well, I’d argue that Jamaat Ahmadiyya, for one, was such a mainstream denomination, until you declared them non-Muslims. It’s a great move on your part to first declare everyone who opposes you as non-Muslim, then ask for proof from a Muslim denomination having those beliefs.
The other problem with your argument is if you allow Mullahs to pass verdict on other’s faith, then you have to live with the fact that all the sects of Islam have declared each other as non-Muslim at one point or the other… Shias, Sunnis, Deobandis, Barelvis, etc etc., have all been declared non-Muslim by others. If you are going to believe all such fatwas, then there’s no one left who’s still a Muslim. What makes you so sure you yourself are a Muslim? Whichever sect or school of thought you belong to, you have been declared non-Muslim. So if you follow your own logic, then you yourself are a non-Muslim, and hence have no right to pass judgement whether anyone is a Muslim or not.