sis... i know your love for muslim umah and its betterment and i appreciate that but we should not see the matter from one eye only..as in quran is that in justice matters...you sould not go to one party of yours lking that you should start doing un-justice to others...no doubt about that USA and Israel are the present day Dajjals of world...the way they used the WMD's to kill...655,000 people n iraq...history will never ever spare these terrorists no. 1 ....but we should also look upon our weakness...
just reminder...in your own city...what happened on 7-7-2006 ......who killed 60 innocent people...thier photographs...movig to tube train film...all is there ...3 are linkages directly o Pakistan....is that all false.....is killing these innocent bus-passengers is halal is islam... many muslims died in it...what kind of islam is this....??????????
Where did I say that Killing innocent people is halaal? You are twisting and making it all up.
All I said was that I don't believe muslims were involved in 9 11..........and many non muslims also believe the same then don't I have a right to believe it?
Same with the 7/ 7.......no muslim was involved in it. And there are proves for that, that it wasn't done by those muslim youths.
People who made documentries like Loose Change are non muslims. And they tried to prove the reality.
Don't Ever try to convince me that some muslims did the bombings 0n 9/11 or 7/7.
aray bahna..uun ki poori video bani hai jub wo bag peechai latkai tube train kai passage kai pass kharai hai...
if not who did this....???? can a christin or jew is so "brave" to low himself....not at all....who is blowing people in iraq daily..is not Al-Qaeda....so is it strange that Al-Qaeda cannot do it in london ???
all bombimgs in pakistan...suicide in quetta court killing 19 innocent...who did this...who is blowing imam bargahs...in pakistan...police officers....who is blowing army jawans....are they not the same mislead 19 19 20 20 years boys.....who are given the chit of "jannah" when they push the button...in the written form that when push button ..jannah automatic door will open for you....who poisoned thier minds with such malicious thing...which islam they are following...where is in quran and hadees it is written...you cannot even kill a single innocent human being....
and all these boys are students of Taliban in North and South Wazirstan ...Wana ...etc....they are blowing the schools of girls...that in islam ...it is haram...now tell me...which version of islam they are following...even a girl of 10 in those area take complete burqa...only eyes...still they are blowing the schools....is this islam...sister tell me with your heart...is this islam....??? they are threatning to keep beard...is it here any verse and hadees on the "compultion" of beard...its sunnah...but who the hell those talibans to threat ..beat and blowt he shops of barberers...who shave....are they living in caves....they think keeping beard...blowing girls schools...and keeping shalwar above ankle ...is only islam...irrsepective of Huqqoq-ul-Ibad...how the hell they turning the whole society .....do they think that people will follow these jahils pre-historic times mullahs...who connsider thier rulings "authentic" on every matters....
all theses talibans are supported by al-Qaeda...who attempted 3 attacks on Musharraf...one on Shaukat aziz...many on Imam Bargahs...innoceets peoples....do you think ISI and MI are just fools....do they not know the connections between talibans and Al-Qaeda...do they not know from where all mislead sui-cide bombers are coming...from the same tribal area....in most of the world...sui-cides attacks ..the links ultimately come to this tribal area...believeit or not...they want to turn it into Jihadistan....what is this kind of jihad...kidnapping children...the smugglers of heroin and hishees ...is this islamic attitude to smoke and sell drugs...our pakistan youth has shattered due to these filthy afghans who spreaded drugs and Kalisankof into paksitan...the Karachi burnt for 10 years due to this....
why CNN and BBC are shouting that tribal areas are nw the paradise of Al-Qaeda...why they not go thier own countries.....go to saudia...egypt...tunis...yemen..uzbukistan...all thugs and terrorists accumulated here to do "jihad" against USA....leaving Jihad Bi nafs....looting banks...selling drugs...what is thsi kind of jihad sister......
ISI and Pakistn Army fully know these talibans...thats why our 700+ sodiers have been martyred....they should atleast leave Pakistan...go to own countreis..do jihads in UK and USA ...not in Pakistan...leave our country...
sister...this is not islam which these hardcores are spreading...they are terrorists...and Pak Army is crushing them...they just wnt to escape from thier countries as they are involved in various crimes and now living in Pakistan under the "cover" of jihad....
Sister...i know ..the above reality is harsh..but we should accept that...there is not a 1% error that the above information is wrong......we are not aginst jihad...nor we are in support of USA ...but this ...what they are doing...can be considered as anything...except "Jihad"......
and they call it that we are "implementing" shariah in tribal area..everyday ..the papers are distributed in bazars of tribal...even in kohat and banu that ...close all shops of barberers ...what a kind of shariah theyare implementing...who the hell given them the right to impose thier so-called fatwas in the name of shariah....isshariah told them to blow girl school..s shariah told them to beat the boy wearing nikker...is shariah told them to throw acid over the women not taking parda....wht this sahriah they are implementing.....they should leave Pakistan and implement shariat in tier own countries...from where they ran....not in Pakistan...we want shariat but not with these jahils mullahs..who have not even heard the name of "ijma" and "qiyaas" and "ijtihaad" etc...who not even know the what 4 great fiqahs and schools of thought opinions about matters..why they not go to UK and implement this shariah..why not in Egypt...waha to in ko jutai partai hai...yahan Pakistan mai yai shariat kai "thaikaidar" banantai hai ......
I have cut the post down a little bit so it is more manageable and we don't go off on tangent discussions. Additionally not all of it is relevant to the questions I had asked, another reason for me cutting it down, so we don't forget what I asked and discuss other things.
From historical information from Umayyad times, it seems a kind of ritual was performed a day before "Shabot Shalom" (i.e. on a Friday, which is now considered Jum'ah/congregation) and after this ritual, a certain "Ali" was cursed for many years. Umar bin Abdul Aziz is said to have put an end to this tradition of cursing this certain "Ali". This seems to be the starting point of the ritual we perform today.
My original question was how come such a drastic change in prayer went unnoticed. This reply is about cursing Ali RA, and if Umar bin Abdul Aziz put an end to the cursing then how is this the starting point of this ritual. It couldn 't have been put to an end if it was already there. Thye context of my question was based on your points, there was no ritualistic prayer at the time of the Prophet SAW but it was introduced with the ahadith. Umar bin Abdul Aziz ruled at a time when the ahadith were not even composed (your arugment, they came some 200 years after the demise of the Prophet SAW) whereas Umar ruled in the early 700's. So this would prove that prayer existed before the introduction of hadith based on your statement.
O you who AAMNU (who will to tread the siraat-im mustqeem), when called-upon/Invited to the SALAAT, haste unto remembrance of Allah and leave THE BAEE' (not your BAEE'). That is better for you if ye did but know.
The translation for this ayat you have posted has ignored the translation for the Arabic words "Yaum Al-Jumuah", which in arabic would have meant day of the congregation or Friday.
فَإِذَا قُضِيَتْ الصَّلَوةُ فَانتَشِرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَابْتَغُوا مِنْ فَضْلِ اللَّهِ وَاذْكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ
*And when THE SALAAT is COMPLETED/ATTAINED/SATISFIED, disperse in the land??? (not back to business/BAEE') and seek FROM (min) Allah's grace/superiority, and remember Allah much, that ye may be successful. *
وَإِذَا رَأَوْا تِجَرَةً أَوْ لَهْوًا انفَضُّوا إِلَيْهَا وَتَرَكُوكَ قَائِمًا قُلْ مَا عِنْدَ اللَّهِ خَيْرٌ مِنْ اللَّهْوِ وَمِنْ التِّجَرَةِ وَاللَّهُ خَيْرُ الرَّزِقِينَ
But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it (the BAEE'??), and leave thee standing. Say: "The (blessing) from the Presence of God is better than any amusement or bargain! and God is the Best to provide (for all needs)."
So BAEE' is not everyday business in the context of these verses, and as such points back to SALAAT as something that is to be ESTABLISHED not performed.
These are irrelevant to the discussion so I will comment on them no further.
According to traditional Muslim belief, the exalted prophet ascended to the heavens on a mystical horse-like creature accompanied by Gabriel. He was taken to the seventh heaven where he met Allah (The God) and it was there that the 5-time daily prayer was prescribed by The God. This 'event' was called the Me'raaj or Ascension.
Can the Quran shed some light on the matter? I am of the opinion that it can and it does:
50:16 Now indeed, it is We Who have created man and We know the whispering that goes on within his mind for, We are nearer to him than his Vena cava.
i.e: One does not have to travel to the far corners of the universe to meet Allah
And
3:133 Move forward eagerly to the tranquil security that comes from your Lord, and to the Paradise that transcends spatial boundaries, encompassing the Heavens and the Earth. It has already been prepared for those who live upright.
i.e Paradise is not confined to the Heavens. Like Hell, it begins right here in this worldly life
Infact, there is no mention of Me'raaj in the Quran (Israa' is not Me'raaj and al Masjid il Aqsaa was a structure constructed by the Umayyads after the prophet's death), yet the traditionalists claim Me'raaj actually happened. And then is the steed
*Burraq *
Burrak or Burraq is the name of a horse-like heavenly winged steed that bore Prophet Muhammad from Earth to Heaven. After the transformation of the exalted prophet's body for ascent, a conveyance named Burraq was presented before him. Burraq resembled a horse-like animal but its very name indicates that it also possessed a lightning body. The word Burraq is derived from the root Barq meaning 'electricity' or 'Thunderbolt' in Arabic. Burraq signifies that he had to be taken with the velocity of Barq that is electricity or light, which is 300,000 km per second.
If you read Arabic you will see "Masjid ul Haraam" and "Masjid ul Aqsa" in arabic, which renders the whole argument void and needs no further discussion or comparison to myths and Masjid Al Aqsa being non-existent.
Salam :) very good analysis! I had already stated that these answers are not doing justice with your question and will take a lot more than a few posts.
I have cut the post down a little bit so it is more manageable and we don't go off on tangent discussions. Additionally not all of it is relevant to the questions I had asked, another reason for me cutting it down, so we don't forget what I asked and discuss other things.
Yes, and this is a fair point. I apologize if you feel that I have wasted your time.
My original question was how come such a drastic change in prayer went unnoticed. This reply is about cursing Ali RA, and if Umar bin Abdul Aziz put an end to the cursing then how is this the starting point of this ritual. It couldn 't have been put to an end if it was already there. Thye context of my question was based on your points, there was no ritualistic prayer at the time of the Prophet SAW but it was introduced with the ahadith. Umar bin Abdul Aziz ruled at a time when the ahadith were not even composed (your arugment, they came some 200 years after the demise of the Prophet SAW) whereas Umar ruled in the early 700's. So this would prove that prayer existed before the introduction of hadith based on your statement.
I said there was a ritual on a "Friday" that was for a certain gathering... and not 5-times a day. There is a difference...
The translation for this ayat you have posted has ignored the translation for the Arabic words "Yaum Al-Jumuah", which in arabic would have meant day of the congregation or Friday.
Correct, and that is my mistake since I did not cut and past but was translating word for word. Let me try again (and this time I am giving you all possible meanings of these words - you be the judge):
يَايُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءامَنُوا إِذَا نُودِي لِلصَّلَوةِ مِنْ يَوْمِ الْجُمُعَةِ فَاسْعَوْا إِلَى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ وَذَرُوا الْبَيْعَ ذَلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ
O you who AAMNU (who will to tread the siraat-im mustqeem), when called-upon/Invited to the SALAAT from (min???) MOMENT/EVENT/TIME/DAY/STAGE of THE CONGREGATION/ASSEMBLY/COMING-TOGETHER (notice there is no definite artical "AL" for yaum, but is rather for jum'ah), haste unto remembrance of Allah and leave THE BAEE' (not your BAEE'). That is better for you if ye did but know.
Yaum means day, and it ALSO means time/event or even a certain stage ... so you take it literally that God created the universe in 6 days? Why not 6 micro-seconds or 6 STAGES?
... did you make a note of the fact that there is no indication as to when is this certain Yaum and that too for a repeated event?
These are irrelevant to the discussion so I will comment on them no further.
To me they seem every bit relevant... or maybe I am not sure how to communicate it.
Here is the first verse from Surha Isra
سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَى بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلاً مِّنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الأَقْصَى الَّذِي بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ آيَاتِنَا إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ البَصِيرُ
If you read Arabic you will see "Masjid ul Haraam" and "Masjid ul Aqsa" in arabic, which renders the whole argument void and needs no further discussion or comparison to myths and Masjid Al Aqsa being non-existent.
Excellent point! But asraa' has nothing to do with Me'raaj since there was no Masjid il Aqsaa in Jerusalem at the time of the prophet (it was constructed after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslims). Doesn't it sound odd to you? So then we have to re-evaluate the meaning of the words al Masjid il Haraam and al Masjid il Aqsaa and actually TRANSLATE them rather than using them as proper nouns. Did it occur to you that the next aayah (and subsequent ones) talk of Moses and bani Israel?
sis hareem ...we should not be emotionals..we have done many mistakes...and we should have courage to accept them...thats what we can move forward taking morals from our weaknesses ....because it always take two make a quarrel... i know you want to see ummah excel ... i respect your views and opinions....but believe me by just jihad ...we cannot do that...jihad is the last resort.....prophet(pbuh) never did it until he came to madina having full political power as a state...moreover shariah gives more importance to give dawah and conversion of islam ..rather that we take sword in hands and start shouting jihad jihad.....prophet(pbuh) did at best not to fight with makkans in all battles...every time...they did it....and the most muslims conversion was in two years of peace treaty after "Sulha Hudaibia" ......hundreds of muslim conversions...even not in 13years of makki life...even not first 6 years of madni life...this only because in peace and love...you can understand others best rather than hatred and anger.....
Salam :) very good analysis! I had already stated that these answers are not doing justice with your question and will take a lot more than a few posts.
Wsalam.
Thank you.
Yes, and this is a fair point. I apologize if you feel that I have wasted your time.
We all get carried away when discussing and I do it quite a lot myself.
I said there was a ritual on a "Friday" that was for a certain gathering... and not 5-times a day. There is a difference...
Prayer in general is the same, times and names are different. There are differences in Rakahs but the overall form of prayer is the same whether Jumuah or regular prayer you perform 5 times a day. I think we are discussing prayer in general not Friday in specific. But my point still proves prayer existed from the earliest days and did not come as a ritual later on.
Yaum means day, and it ALSO means time/event... did you make a note of the fact that there is no indication as to when is this certain Yaum and that too for a repeated event?
If you read through to 62:11 verse it becomes quite evident it is a repetitive event or congregation. It even mentions "Qaaiman", which means standing in general, which means here that the Khatib is left standing when people ignore the call to prayer for their worldy business.
To me they seem every bit relevant... or maybe I am not sure how to communicate it.
Might be, however it didn't get through my thick skull at least.
Excellent point! But asraa' has nothing to do with Me'raaj since there was no Masjid il Aqsaa in Jerusalem at the time of the prophet (it was constructed after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslims). Doesn't it sound odd to you? So then we have to re-evaluate the meaning of the words al Masjid il Haraam and al Masjid il Aqsaa and actually TRANSLATE them rather than using them as proper nouns. Did it occur to you that the next aayah (and subsequent ones) talk of Moses and bani Israel?
Isra and Meraj are two different journeys happening during the same event. Isra is what we call the journey from Haram to Al-Aqsa and ascension from Al-Aqsa to the heavens is what we term meraj. The journey occured in two parts nothing wrong in naming them so they remain in two distinct parts. Now I agree we learn this from the ahadith.
Actually it has become a proper noun while refereing it just like your name might be however your name does have a meaning. Like some called Asad is a proper noun when taken to identify something with i.e. the human form of that person, however translated Asad would mean Lion. However even if you want to take it for its translated meaning them its remote masjid, which means there was another masjid, care to specify which one is being refered here?
As for the context of the verse, it is not trying to describe the Isra here but refering to the incident to exemplify the power and glory of Allah SWT, this is more clear if you read the next verse about Moses PBUH as you mentioned. Most of the verses are trying to point out the power and glory of Allah SWT by citing examples and Isra is one of them.
Prayer in general is the same, times and names are different. There are differences in Rakahs but the overall form of prayer is the same whether Jumuah or regular prayer you perform 5 times a day. I think we are discussing prayer in general not Friday in specific. But my point still proves prayer existed from the earliest days and did not come as a ritual later on.
Oh for sure, prayer predates the Quran, whether it be in the Pagan religion of the Arabs, or Judaism and Christianity...
If you read through to 62:11 verse it becomes quite evident it is a repetitive event or congregation. It even mentions "Qaaiman", which means standing in general, which means here that the Khatib is left standing when people ignore the call to prayer for their worldy business.
Dear bro, Qaa'iman does not mean prayer, it means standing and the context is, everytime they see an opportunity, they abandon you where you are Qaa'iman where Qaa'ima is to stand for something or establish something, including a principle... it does not necessarily mean literally/physically standing.
And the next part of the verse is interesting too:
قُلْ مَا عِنْدَ اللَّهِ خَيْرٌ مِنْ اللَّهْوِ وَمِنْ التِّجَرَةِ وَاللَّهُ خَيْرُ الرَّزِقِينَ
Say: "What is with Allah/The (blessing) from the Presence of Allah is better than any amusement or bargain! and God is the Best to provide (for all needs)."
wait a minute!! God is everywhere (closer to you than your jugular vein)! What does it mean by "presence of Allah" or "with Allah" then? Correlate this concept with the word "masjid" and then tell me if it is something physical, which brings us to the Israa'.
Isra and Meraj are two different journeys happening during the same event. Isra is what we call the journey from Haram to Al-Aqsa and ascension from Al-Aqsa to the heavens is what we term meraj. The journey occured in two parts nothing wrong in naming them so they remain in two distinct parts. Now I agree we learn this from the ahadith.
Actually it has become a proper noun while refereing it just like your name might be however your name does have a meaning. Like some called Asad is a proper noun when taken to identify something with i.e. the human form of that person, however translated Asad would mean Lion. However even if you want to take it for its translated meaning them its remote masjid, which means there was another masjid, care to specify which one is being refered here?
As for the context of the verse, it is not trying to describe the Isra here but refering to the incident to exemplify the power and glory of Allah SWT, this is more clear if you read the next verse about Moses PBUH as you mentioned. Most of the verses are trying to point out the power and glory of Allah SWT by citing examples and Isra is one of them.
Aqsa does not mean remote, it means Firm/Solid/Concrete/Unfaltering... Haraam means restriction. Translate them now... a hypothetical arabic word "maZDiM" where "ZDM" is the arabic root, translates to place/time/institution of ZDM. SJD means submission in adoration, so the word maSJiD comes out to "place/time/institution of submission in adoration".
But, isn't a masjid for salaat (from the root SLW) according to traditionalists? Hmm...
And then you also ignored the part about there being no masjid il aqsaa in Jerusalem at the time of the prophet. Why?
Oh for sure, prayer predates the Quran, whether it be in the Pagan religion of the Arabs, or Judaism and Christianity...
Our point of discussion is that the prayer performed by muslims today was non-existent in the Prophet SAW time and later introduced with the ahadith. This still hasn't been proved.
Dear bro, Qaa'iman does not mean prayer, it means standing and the context is, everytime they see an opportunity, they abandon you where you are Qaa'iman where Qaa'ima is to stand for something or establish something, including a principle... it does not necessarily mean literally/physically standing.
I don't think I ever said prayer. "Establish a principle", can you give me an example of establishing a principle by making a call to prayer. The verses are all connected to one another:
1 - Call for prayer.
2- Leave your businesses or affairs when the call is proclaimed.
3 - After finshing the prayer or congregation, disperse and resume what you were doing.
4 - Those who do not do this leave out their bounty with Allah SWT.
Given your explanation can you tell me what the stand is being made for in the verse?
I must emphasize though we are derailed what we the original topic of our discussion.
And the next part of the verse is interesting too:
قُلْ مَا عِنْدَ اللَّهِ خَيْرٌ مِنْ اللَّهْوِ وَمِنْ التِّجَرَةِ وَاللَّهُ خَيْرُ الرَّزِقِينَ
Say: "The (blessing) from the Presence of God is better than any amusement or bargain! and God is the Best to provide (for all needs)."
wait a minute!! God is everywhere (closer to you than your jugular vein)! What does it mean by presence of God then? Correlate this concept with the word "masjid" and then tell me if it is something physical, which brings us to the Israa'.
Br. "Ainda Allah" does not translate to "Presence of God", your totally out of context here. What is being said is that which is with Allah SWT i.e. the belssing or rewards is much better than the rewards of this life after which you are running. The verses we are discussing have nothing to do with Isra, no correlation at all. The words in your sentences are no longer correlating among themselves.
Aqsa does not mean remote, it means Firm/Solid/Concrete/Unfaltering... Haraam means restriction. Translate them now... a hypothetical arabic word "maZDiM" where "ZDM" is the arabic root, translates to place/time/institution of ZDM. SJD means submission in adoration, so the word maSJiD comes out to "place/time/institution of submission in adoration".
But, isn't a masjid for salaat (from the root SLW) according to traditionalists? Hmm...
And then you also ignored the part about there being no masjid il aqsaa in Jerusalem at the time of the prophet. Why?
Could you please translate the verse based on your substitutions? I did not ignore it but asked you a question, the verse says he SAW went from one place to another, I asked what was that other Place? I think you ignored what I asked. The thing is if you answer the existence of another place then it becomes probable that the place could have been Al-Aqsa, and this would then run contrary to your arguments.
All this is still not addressing that the ahadith introduced Salah in the ritualistic way it is now.
What I need is evidence that such a shift in prayer occured with the introduction of ahadith. This is what we set out to discuss.
I already mentioned that the "ordinence of the 5-time daily prayer" was done in the Me'raaj and I have given you references of Pegasus and Arta Viraf Namak. The Me'raaj story is based on earlier legends that have nothign to do with Islam (they are from Greek mythology and Zoroastrianism). This seems to be contrived after the Abbasid Empire took hold. If a story like this is invented, what else are you going to argue with me about in terms of the "authenticity" of "hadith"?
Before the Abbasids, the Umayyads (decendants of the Quraysh themselves) used to hold a congregation (Jum'ah) on a Friday, the day that is dedicated to Ephrodite (Hellenized/Greek Allaat,) the Goddess their ancestors (possibly them too) are alleged to have worshipped as per the Quran.
Perhaps this is where the confusion is. I did not say that "prayer" was non-existant (have we ever been told in the alleged sayings/tradition how the kuffar used to pray to Allat, Uzza and Manaat? How do we know the way they used to pray to these godesses has had no impact on way we Muslims pray today, especially based on the information in my earlier paragraph?). Rather, I meant that Islam did not prescribe to prayer but to implement the Quranic message in daily life and FOLLOW it: tSalaat.
If your point is to take a mistake/misarrangement in my presentation and then say that my argument is baseless, then that is not my idea of a discussion. Sorry if this sounds rude.
Word for word translation of Asraa:1 is as follows:
سُبْحَنَ الَّذِي أَسْرَى بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِنْ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَا الَّذِي بَرَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ ءايَتِنَا إِنَّه هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ
Exalted (is) | the Being | (who) took/caused-to-tread | His Servant | by night (of ignorance?) | from | Institution of Submitting-to/Obeying The Restriction | towards | The Institution of The Most-Firm/Concrete Submission | that | We have blessed | surroundings/state of which | to show him | from | Our signs | Indeed | He is | The Hearer | The Knower
maSJiD is a institution/place/time of SJD (submission in adoration) and not of tSLW (following closely) ... The Quran has differenciated the two.
And what is the result of this state of mind called al Masjid il Aqsaa?
وَءاتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَبَ وَجَعَلْنَهُ هُدًى لِبَنِي إِسْرَءيلَ أَلَّا تَتَّخِذُوا مِنْ دُونِي وَكِيلًا
And | We bestowed upon | Moses | The Law | and We Turned it into | guidance | for Children of | he-who-journeyed-to-El (Ya-cob) | that you take not | from | other than Me | a disposer
Our point of discussion is that the prayer performed by muslims today was non-existent in the Prophet SAW time and later introduced with the ahadith. This still hasn't been proved.
...
All this is still not addressing that the ahadith introduced Salah in the ritualistic way it is now.
What I need is evidence that such a shift in prayer occured with the introduction of ahadith. This is what we set out to discuss.
I already mentioned that the "ordinence of the 5-time daily prayer" was done in the Me'raaj and I have given you references of Pegasus and Arta Viraf Namak. The Me'raaj story is based on earlier legends that have nothign to do with Islam (they are from Greek mythology and Zoroastrianism). If a story like this is invented, what else are you going to argue with me about in terms of the "authenticity" of "hadith"?
Umayyads (decendants of the Quraysh themselves) used to hold a congregation (Jum'ah) on a Friday, the day that is dedicated to Ephrodite/Allaat, the Goddess their ancestors (possibly them too) are alleged to have worshipped as per the quran itself.
Let us discredit the Meraj indcident here for the sake of argument. Your argument is that the basis for establishing 5 daily prayers are the ahadith related to Isra o Meraj. is that correct?
If your point is to take a mistake/misarrangement in my presentation and then say that my argument is baseless is not my idea of a discussion. Sorry if this sounds rude.
Word for word translation of Asraa:1 is as follows:
سُبْحَنَ الَّذِي أَسْرَى بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِنْ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَا الَّذِي بَرَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ ءايَتِنَا إِنَّه هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ
Exalted (is) | the Being | (who) took/caused-to-tread | His Servant | by night (of ignorance?) | from | Institution of Submitting-to/Obeying The Restriction | towards | The Institution of The Most-Firm/Concrete Submission | that | We have blessed | surroundings/state of which | to show him | from | Our signs | Indeed | He is | The Hearer | The Knower
And what is the result of this state of mind called al Masjid il Aqsaa?
وَءاتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَبَ وَجَعَلْنَهُ هُدًى لِبَنِي إِسْرَءيلَ أَلَّا تَتَّخِذُوا مِنْ دُونِي وَكِيلًا
And | We bestowed upon | Moses | The Law | and We Turned it into | guidance | for Children of | he-who-journeyed-to-El (Ya-cob) | that you take not | from | other than Me | a disposer
I do not agree with these translations however I want to focus on the first question I asked in this posted reply. I think I don't even need to discuss Al-Aqsa masjid because I have proposed to discredit it for the sake of argument related to me first question.
Let us discredit the Meraj indcident here for the sake of argument. Your argument is that the basis for establishing 5 daily prayers are the ahadith related to Isra o Meraj. is that correct?
Then please go ahead and discredit me... I will not post a counter argument since your mind seems to be made up to begin with.
Then please go ahead and discredit me... I will not post a counter argument since your mind seems to be made up to begin with.
My mind is not made up for anything. All I said was I will agree that the Meraj is the basis for establishing 5 prayers, and let us take that out of the equation because it is narrated in the ahadith. So that means I have to prove without the support of ahadith related to Meraj that 5 daily prayers were to be established and it should be tracible through some other means. That is all I am saying, please don't deduce wrong things.
You don't need to post a counter argument, because I am just requesting to take out the parameter from the argument, which according to you is the basis for 5 ritualistic prayers. If we take it out than I should fall flat on my face because I have no other evidence per your say. Can we proceed?
Let us discredit the Meraj indcident here for the sake of argument. Your argument is that the basis for establishing 5 daily prayers are the ahadith related to Isra o Meraj. is that correct?
And I know where you are going with this...
You don't need to post a counter argument, because I am just requesting to take out the parameter from the argument, which according to you is the basis for 5 ritualistic prayers. If we take it out than I should fall flat on my face because I have no other evidence per your say. Can we proceed?
I am not sure what you mean. But bro, why would you fall flat on your face? But anyhow, proceed bro.