Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
Hadith here means just speech and not speech of Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
precisely, and this includes sayings of ALL PEOPLE/MORTALS
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
Br. Hypnotix About the Salah, here is something for you to ponder upon. Let us assume that the Salah (as you have refered to ritual Salah), is a tainted form of the original Salah that the Prophet SAW performed. Now this innovation was injected into Islam as per your thoughts through the introduction of ahadith. In this very thread you had stated that ahadith were written some 200 years after the Prophert SAW demise.
So during that interval how did the muslims pray? Ofcourse the hadith collections cannot be widely spread in times like those, they were more like research projects of certain individuals. It is pretty unreasonable to think that the ahadith collected became widespread like a jungle fire and everyone changed the way they used to pray.
The first civil war among muslims was for the murder of Uthman RA, I can't imagine someone came along and changed the way in which the Arabs prayed and there is no recorded event in history that shows us it was not rebelled against. A fundamental change like this could not have gone un-noticed in this history of muslims. Take a parallel from Christian history, the Nicea council, marks the doctrinal change in the teachings of Jesus PBUH, and that is much older history.
Bro, beautiful questions! These are the kind of questions we need to be asking. I will reply to these in a bit if you would allow me to?
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
precisely, and this includes sayings of ALL PEOPLE/MORTALS
So?
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
Bro, beautiful questions! These are the kind of questions we need to be asking. I will reply to these in a bit if you would allow me to?
Sure no problem. Do your research.
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
So?
:) so, إن في ذلك لءايت لقوم يتفكرون
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
Sure no problem. Do your research.
It is not that I have to research... I had asked these questions too but it took a long time to digest and to condense it in one reply is quite a chellenge.
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
It is not that I have to research... I had asked these questions too but it took a long time to digest and to condense it in one reply is quite a chellenge.
Oh Ok. Well go ahead and gather your thoughts together.
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
:) so, إن في ذلك لءايت لقوم يتفكرون
Am i rejecting the ayahs of Allah(swt). (Audhubillah)?
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
Am i rejecting the ayahs of Allah(swt). (Audhubillah)?
oh my...
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
I can .....And I am denying it.
Which makes your other opinons and judgments suspect at best.
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
Oh Ok. Well go ahead and gather your thoughts together.
ok Here goes... but for the record, this is no way doing justice with the question you asked... it will take much more than a few posts to answer this question:
From historical information from Umayyad times, it seems a kind of ritual was performed a day before "Shabot Shalom" (i.e. on a Friday, which is now considered Jum'ah/congregation) and after this ritual, a certain "Ali" was cursed for many years. Umar bin Abdul Aziz is said to have put an end to this tradition of cursing this certain "Ali". This seems to be the starting point of the ritual we perform today.
It would be interesting to note that Friday is actually Frigga-day (dedicated to this Goddess). Frigga is another name of Ephrodite/Venus who was worshipped as Allat/Uzza in the pagan Arab world. There is no indication from the Quran (which clearly explains when and how Fasting/Saum is to be done) that Jum'ah/congregation is to be done on a Friday (or a day before Shabot). The frequency has been left to the state on a AS NEEDED basis (correlate with Saum) and the Umayyads just happened to have put on on Fridays, unless it means something else.
يَايُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءامَنُوا إِذَا نُودِي لِلصَّلَوةِ مِنْ يَوْمِ الْجُمُعَةِ فَاسْعَوْا إِلَى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ وَذَرُوا الْبَيْعَ ذَلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ
O you who AAMNU (who will to tread the siraat-im mustqeem), when called-upon/Invited to the SALAAT, haste unto remembrance of Allah and leave THE BAEE' (not your BAEE'). That is better for you if ye did but know.
It would be interesting to note that BAEE' not only means business, it also means "Gaining mastery over someone, superceding or occupying their place also by superior power or force"... so it is asking for humility.
فَإِذَا قُضِيَتْ الصَّلَوةُ فَانتَشِرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَابْتَغُوا مِنْ فَضْلِ اللَّهِ وَاذْكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ
*And when THE SALAAT is COMPLETED/ATTAINED/SATISFIED, disperse in the land??? (not back to business/BAEE') and seek FROM (min) Allah's grace/superiority, and remember Allah much, that ye may be successful. *
وَإِذَا رَأَوْا تِجَرَةً أَوْ لَهْوًا انفَضُّوا إِلَيْهَا وَتَرَكُوكَ قَائِمًا قُلْ مَا عِنْدَ اللَّهِ خَيْرٌ مِنْ اللَّهْوِ وَمِنْ التِّجَرَةِ وَاللَّهُ خَيْرُ الرَّزِقِينَ
But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it (the BAEE'??), and leave thee standing. Say: "The (blessing) from the Presence of God is better than any amusement or bargain! and God is the Best to provide (for all needs)."
So BAEE' is not everyday business in the context of these verses, and as such points back to SALAAT as something that is to be ESTABLISHED not performed.
The ritual namaaz was "ordained" during Me'raaj correct? Let's see:
According to traditional Muslim belief, the exalted prophet ascended to the heavens on a mystical horse-like creature accompanied by Gabriel. He was taken to the seventh heaven where he met Allah (The God) and it was there that the 5-time daily prayer was prescribed by The God. This 'event' was called the Me'raaj or Ascension.
Can the Quran shed some light on the matter? I am of the opinion that it can and it does:
50:16 Now indeed, it is We Who have created man and We know the whispering that goes on within his mind for, We are nearer to him than his Vena cava.
i.e: One does not have to travel to the far corners of the universe to meet Allah
And
3:133 Move forward eagerly to the tranquil security that comes from your Lord, and to the Paradise that transcends spatial boundaries, encompassing the Heavens and the Earth. It has already been prepared for those who live upright.
i.e Paradise is not confined to the Heavens. Like Hell, it begins right here in this worldly life
Infact, there is no mention of Me'raaj in the Quran (Israa' is not Me'raaj and al Masjid il Aqsaa was a structure constructed by the Umayyads after the prophet's death), yet the traditionalists claim Me'raaj actually happened. And then is the steed
*Burraq *
Burrak or Burraq is the name of a horse-like heavenly winged steed that bore Prophet Muhammad from Earth to Heaven. After the transformation of the exalted prophet's body for ascent, a conveyance named Burraq was presented before him. Burraq resembled a horse-like animal but its very name indicates that it also possessed a lightning body. The word Burraq is derived from the root Barq meaning 'electricity' or 'Thunderbolt' in Arabic. Burraq signifies that he had to be taken with the velocity of Barq that is electricity or light, which is 300,000 km per second.
Now let us examine an older myth:
*Pegasus *
Pegasus is a mighty winged horse of Greek myth. Bellerophon, a great hero of Greek mythology, made the foolish decision to try and fly Pegasus to Olympus (heaven, according Greek mythology) ... Prior to aiding Bellerophon, Pegasus brought thunderbolts from Zeus down to the earth, and following Bellerophon's death he returned to Olympus to aid the gods again ... It also has a steller constellation named after it.
Notice the parallel: Thunderbolts? Barq? This is the smoking gun, but let us not stop here, and look at another mythical account:
Arta Viraf Namak
In that work we are informed that, finding that the Zoroastrian faith had to a great extent lost its hold upon the minds of the people of the Persian Empire, the Magian priests determined to support by fresh proofs the restoration of the faith which the zeal of Ardashir had undertaken to carry out. Therefore they selected a young priest of saintly life, and prepared him by various ceremonial purifications for an ascent into the heavens, in order that he might see what was there and bring back word whether it agreed or not with the account contained in their religions books. It is related that, when this young Arta Viraf was in a trance, his spirit ascended into the heavens under the guidance of an archangel named Sarosh, and passed from one storey to another, gradually ascending until he reached the presence of Ormazd (Ahura Mazda) himself. When Arta Viraf had thus beheld everything in the heavens and seen the happy state of their inhabitants, Ormazd commanded him to return to the earth as His messenger and to tell the Zoroastrians what he had seen.
Do you notice the extent of overlap between these stories? How could this happen? The fact of the matter is that the exalted Messenger never ascended to the heavens. Allah is everywhere.
*Traces of Greek Philosophy in the Me'raaj Story *
Arabs of Hijaz were not knowledgable regarding Greek mythology during the times of the exalted messenger, while christians of that age had already discarded Greek teachings and philosophy. Greek philosophy was reintroduced into Europe by Muslim alchemists and astronomers, who had started taking inspiration from Aristotle, Socrates and Ptolemy after the 9th Century AD. The account of the seven layers of the heaven mentioned in the Me'raaj story are based on the Aristotle's philosophy.
Allah declares in the Quran:
23:17 And, indeed We have created above you seven hevens/celestial-orbits, and We are never unmindful of creation. (35:1).
41:12 And He it is Who ordained that they become seven Heavens in two stages and assigned to each heaven its function. And We decorated the sky of the world with shining lamps, and made them secure (that they clash not in their orbits 41:9). That is the Design of the Almighty, the Knower.
65:12 Allah it is Who has created seven Highs and their seven Lows. Through all of them descends His Command. (This is said) for you to know that Allah is the Powerful Appointer of His Laws. He has gauged everything, and that Allah encompasses all things in His Knowledge.
"Seven" or "sab'a" also means several and does not imply a fixed number for every case... It also implies the kind of celestial bodies that Allah has created, and does not imply that there are seven celestial spheres in the universe. Notice the 7-day week. Each day is attributed to a celestial body: Saturday - Saturn, Sunday - Sun, Monday - Moon, Tuesday-Mars , Wednesday-Mercury , Thursday - Jupiter, Friday - Venus. These celestial bodies were venerated throughout the Arabian regions as well as the rest of the known world at that time. The implication is that it is Allah who created them. They are not Gods but He Who created them.
So in my view, the account of Me'raaj based on the Burraq/Pegasus parallel, seems to be contrived quite likely after the Abbaside Empire took hold. The Pegasus constellation could be the very starting point of inspiration for the group of people who came up with the story to begin with, especially since astronomy was catching interest amongst Muslim scientists of the time.
Why you may ask? Muslims today are not how they were 1300 years ago. Salah (erroneously considered as 5-time daily prayer) actually means a system of life centered around strict monotheism, focussing on how to conduct oneself in society and to grow and expand one's knowledge and understanding of the universe; not to take information at face value and to verify it, ponder and reflect on it. A society that ascribes to such ideals would indeed be very hard to control by monarchy, so it is likely that the sutlans/caliphs initiated projects to slowly bring people away from reason to ritual/tradition. Through canonized imams like Bukhari and Tabari, they concocted volumes of fabricated hadith and history. Anyone who asked questions (something permitted and encouraged in Islam) and opposed this 'traditionalist' approach was immediately flogged or killed (Allama Shibli Nomani, on page 27 of his Seeratun Nabi has given a startling quote of Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal d. 241 AH, "Three kinds of books are absolutely unfounded, Maghazi, Malahem and Tafseer”: The exalted Prophet's Battles, Dreams and Prophecies, and Expositions of the Qur'an - but wasn't Hanbal chastised for something?). So now we have the element of fabrication intermingled with what actually happened and prescribed, and this has given rise to several contradictions in Islamic teachings. All such contraditions can easily be sifted through by examining Quran as stand-alone.
Look again... it took two centuries and two displacements of the Islamic capital... Medina to Damascus and then Damascus to Baghdaad. Usually such displacements in a time of the old days (no/little information flow) can be a "blessing" for people to propagate heresay and word-of-mouth. Over 2 centuries back in those days, this would have had quite an impact.
And what about the instant surge in "Khirajite" uprisings after Mu'aawiyah? Is khirajite another name of "Shi'a il Ali" or was this group a small part of this khirajite movement? If this can be proven by outside documentation such as Anatolian/Byzantian/Chinese texts of that time, then please let me know.
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
ok Here goes... but for the record, this is no way doing justice with the question you asked... it will take much more than a few posts to answer this question: ...
It will take between today and tomorrow to reply. Need to read through everything you wrote. Is that Ok?
Just one request from you, can you provide the references from Quran of the ayat you have quoted.
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
It will take between today and tomorrow to reply. Need to read through everything you wrote. Is that Ok?
go for it... but think.
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
It will take between today and tomorrow to reply. Need to read through everything you wrote. Is that Ok?
Just one request from you, can you provide the references from Quran of the ayat you have quoted.
suratul Jum'ah ... ending verses. you might also consider lane's lexicon or lisaan il arab for meaning look up to translate the verses yourself
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
Which makes your other opinons and judgments suspect at best.
Do you think people on this forum have problem with their eye sight?
You have no idea do ya?
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
hmmm... eyesight? I can't say. But anyone who claims:
[quote]
i don't believe that any muslim was involved in 9 11.
[/quote]
has problems seeing the truth.
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
sis... i know your love for muslim umah and its betterment and i appreciate that but we should not see the matter from one eye only..as in quran is that in justice matters...you sould not go to one party of yours lking that you should start doing un-justice to others...no doubt about that USA and Israel are the present day Dajjals of world...the way they used the WMD's to kill...655,000 people n iraq...history will never ever spare these terrorists no. 1 ....but we should also look upon our weakness...
just reminder...in your own city...what happened on 7-7-2006 ......who killed 60 innocent people...thier photographs...movig to tube train film...all is there ...3 are linkages directly o Pakistan....is that all false.....is killing these innocent bus-passengers is halal is islam... many muslims died in it...what kind of islam is this....??????????
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
i know this is the reacton...but can Shariah justify this reaction...aqs in quran ..killing of 1 innocent person=killing of whole humanity ...and nowhere is written that this one peron should be "muslim" !!!!!!!
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
so what..it was in thier benifit also to break russia...and in our benifit also to preserve Pakistan....did prophet
(pbuh) not taken help from jews in armours against makkans...did prophet(pbuh) not took help from kuffar-e-makkah of swords and camels when the time of battle of Hawazan came in 9 hijri.....
Re: Islamically can you join a national army...
Regarding what arabs countries are doing to support America... thier fault ....not to blame Pakistan or Pak Army......there are almost kingdoms and ancsetoral thrones in arabian countries....after father...son sit on the seat...no democracy...cruel rule in egypt..syria..etc...no freedom of expression...these kings save thier own seat ...under the umbrella of USA...who cares for ummah.....these arabs are happy to spend trillions of dollars on thier luxuries..."ayyashia"...sports...dubai festivals...polo grounds...tennis tournaments...inviting RoJer Feeder and Martina Hinges....having horse races...gambling....shopping malls....sky-scrappers....Las Vegas gambling night clubs are the hunt places for arab princess...thier swiss lockers are filled with billions...
why they do not set up the armour factories...scientific and engineering institutions...hiring foriegn faculties...on high pays..which they can easily afford instead of "Ayyashi"...why not set up millitary and defence sites...why not have a joint venture of sub-marines and plane making...why not have a courage to make ummah dependable on thier own...why not united as EU united despite they fighted for 1000 years to each other...why not have same currency...why not have same banks....why they do not use the potentials of Pakistan...Iran...Malysia and Turkey ...relatively poor but having more potentials....and money of Arabs...join to make ummah ...the leader of the world......why they do not do that......
How Pakistan...having the poor and less economy can do all that...it can provide potential but wy not gulf countries provide money...becase they have no interest in ummah..they have interest in thier seats...still then Pakistan....do its best o unite ummah...but how can one country can do...if 55 others are not even prepare to listen to Pakistan...what else we can do.....!!!!!!!!!!! what else Pak Army do for ummah.....baqi to sarai lassi pee kar baithai huai hai !!!!!!!