Islamically can you join a national army...

Society Religion & Philosophy
181

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Shukran

182

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

These are ayat from the Quran:

[quote]

2:238 Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).

[/quote]

Unless you had 3 or 5 prayers there would be no middle prayer to guard. This is talking about prayer at Asr time.

[quote]

11:114 And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):

[/quote]

Two ends of the day means beginning and ending of the Day i.e. Fajr and Maghrib prayers. Dawn to Dusk.

[quote]

17:78 Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
[/quote]

Again references to maghrib, Isha and Fajr.

[quote]

24:58 O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
[/quote]

Again references to Fajr and Isha.

It doesn't get any clearer than this that routine prayers were prescribed for the muslims, details of which are given in ahadith. If you wish I can present numerous other verses about the actions performed in prayer i.e. bowing, standing and prostration.

As I said I did not leverage the ahadith to show that prayers existed before the compilation of ahadith and the advent of ahadith did not introduce ritualistic prayer as you have stated.

The only thing I expect now is you will propose some new form of translation of these verses and change the meaning. If you want to we can still go ahead and go through that as well.

183

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

USResident, that is what I meant when I said "I know where you're going with this..."

Urdu Grammar
184

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...


Bro, I give you word for word translation and you say it is new form? So you believe I distort meaning right?

185

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Please post translations for the verses I quoted then. I am not here to dis you in anyway. Just good intention. If I am wrong I will accept it and expect the same courtesy from you.

When we discredit the majority opinion there must be very good and strong evidence that is not easily refutable. That is all I ask. I always study both sides of a story and let the most reasonable explanation sink in. Expect the same from you. I took out ahadith references since to you they are disputable. I used only Quran but now it appears the translation is disputable to you. Lets go with the Arabic and both of our translations side by side then. Lets take it one verse at a time for the ones I posted.

186

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

حَفِظُوا عَلَى الصَّلَوَتِ وَالصَّلَوةِ الْوُسْطَى وَقُومُوا لِلَّهِ قَنِتِينَ
And it does not seem the least bit odd to you that the verses arround seem to be structured around family/wife/Divorce/death-Will-for-family and all of a sudden the middle/Dhuhr salat comes in??? Unless the verse is expounding around the leading and trailing ideas? The preceding verses talk of Divorce, and the proceeding ones speak of widowing? What would be central to these concepts? What then is the Salaat il Wustaa? The day prayer, or following Gods commandment to be committed to your family?

I will comment later on the remaining translations of Yousuf Ali you presented. Gotta get home...

187

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Wusta means middle. Can you provide another meaning of wusta that goes along with Salat?

188

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...


Yes what else did I mean when I said "central"...


Exactly the way I translated it ...

189

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Central is quite different than middle. Central implies something of importance in one context and control of something in another. Middle here is refering to something known entity in the middle of the same type of entities i.e. Salat's or Prayer's.

You did not translate but commented on its place of occurance Sir.

190

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Dear bro, your argument is valid, however you are ignoring that Salawaat and Salaat may not be the same. Let me translate it:

حَفِظُوا
Watch/Guard (V/P/M-F)

عَلَى
over/upon

الصَّلَوَتِ
The SALAWAAT(N/P/F)

وَ
and (does not say AND ESPECIALLY)

َالصَّلَوةِ الْوُسْطَى
The Central SALAAT

وَ
and

قُومُوا
Stand/Make-it-Right/Rise-Up

لِلَّه
For Allah

قَنِتِين
(as) Obedient

We can clearly see that "The Central Salaat" is inherently different from "The Salawaat", otherwise the word خُصُوْصًا (especially) would have been used dear brother...

In as such, The Salawaat cannot denote a set of rituals that is repeated... So the correct translation is:

Guard/Watch-over the System and The Central Duty (of staying attached/folowing/staying-commited) and rise-up/stand for The God as (those) obedient

So what system and which central duty? Does this make my earlier comment about "following Gods commandment to be committed to your family" clear?

Pyaaz Kaat Ke.....
191

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Not sure why you did not choose 4:102-104 since those would have strengthened your case.

Several verses in the Quran speak of God's creation doing Iqaamat-is Salaah...

أَلَمْ تَرَى أَنَّ اللَّهَ يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ مَنْ فِي السَّمَوَتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَالطَّيْرُ صَفَّتٍ كُلٌّ قَدْ عَلِمَ صَلَاتَهُ وَتَسْبِيحَهُ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِمَا يَفْعَلُونَ
(as per Yousuf Ali) Seest thou not that it is God Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) SALAAT and TASBEEH. And God knows well all that they do.

I untranslated the two words for a reason. Granted it is their own mode, but is it in any way unnatural or ritualistic (i.e. I am asking you how are they "performing" their SALAAT and doing TASBEEH)?

Shoes! ~ They are wearing them. Would you?
192

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

First please tell what is your reference for translations. It seems you are using Lane's lexicon to just come up with your own translations.

You have it absolutely wrong, Salawaat is the plural is Salaat meaning Protect your prayers especially the middle prayer. If Wusta meant Central then we should start calling "Mushriqi Wusta" Central East instead of Middle East.

Would you like to move on to the next verse however at this point I think its futile because I don't agree with your translations and you don't with mine.

193

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Irrelevant, humans should worry about how they are supposed to pray not birds. The purpose of the verse is to enlighten us that living things that we may not even know even glorify Allah SWT.

194

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...


Then I have nothing to explain to you bro... and I think we know how they Glorify Allah

195

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...


Then bro, please get me an example that says wa Aqeem-us SalaWAata so we proceed.

196

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...


in fact, Central Asia is known as Aasia il Wusta... and like you, I am not making it black and white that WST means something only central or only middle...

197

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

deleted...

198

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Bro, what good would such an example do? Aqeem us Salah would mean you are being called to prayer. I think I did not understand your point here. Please elaborate.

Let me post the next verse now.

199

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

I think it would (maybe) do is tell me that I have to Aqeem us Salah 5 times a day based on the 4 verses you quoted as your initial argument. You do content that Salawaata is to be taken as a plural of Salaat right?


Please.

Advertisment - A Game :D
200

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Next verse:

11:114 And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):

وَأَقِمِ الصَّلاَةَ طَرَفَيِ النَّهَارِ وَزُلَفًا مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَاتِ يُذْهِبْنَ السَّـيِّئَاتِ ذَلِكَ ذِكْرَى لِلذَّاكِرِينَ

So what are your comments on this?