Islamically can you join a national army...

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...


you should try putting things in perspective bro... ah but I am not getting through on this am I :sigh

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

No, not exactly. There is an Ummah like a headless chicken means without a Leader, an Imam .

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

oh ok.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...


probably this is where I disagree... please describe how do you go about implementing a constitution for such a State (Ummah means community - not nation btw)

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Everytime a Khalifa used to passed away and even after the passing away of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) the ummah were often in the situation of headless State, the methods adopted by these people in enstating leadership should be adopted.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...


First off, the "ummah" became headless due to a reason... If it is so as you describe, then there is something inherently wrong with such an implementation, UNLESS hen kawaakib kuchh nazar aatay hen kuchh.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army…

Sources from Quran & Hadith
For Creating The Islamic State / Ummah

We must give up the idea of nationalism because it is exactly what is dividing us. Quran says not to be divided, and several hadeeth talk against the disease of nationalism. Is the word of Allah and the messenger of Allah not enough for us ? If we take a look at current problems of Ummah, among other problems, it is obvious that we’re divided, and therefore weak

The Quran Says :

Q.3:103
“And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allâh (i.e. this Qur’ân), and be not divided among yourselves, and remember Allâh’s Favour on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, so that, by His Grace, you became brethren (in Islâmic Faith), and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allâh makes His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided.”

Q.3:105
“And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them. It is they for whom there is an awful torment.”

Q.6:159
“Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you (O Muhammad SAW) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allâh, Who then will tell them what they used to do.”

**Q.23:52: **
**“And verily this Ummah of yours IS A SINGLE UMMAH and I am your Lord and Cherisher: Therefore Fear Me (and no other).” **

**Q.23:53: **
“But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: Each party rejoices in that which is with itself.”

**Q.30:32 **
“Those who SPLIT up their religion, and become mere sects each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!”

Q.42:13: "…that ye should remain steadfast in religion and make no DIVISIONS therein… "

**Q.49:13 **
“O Men, We created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may KNOW one another (NOT THAT YOU MAY DESPISE EACH OTHER).”

**Q.30:22 **
“And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge.”

Lets analyze, and see what the Quran’s verses quoted above are all about
**The verses above are ordering and warning us not to be divided, split up, or form sects out of the religion. We’re created into so many different beautiful races, and cultures so that we KNOW each other, NOT get divided into many different countries, etc. **

**Nationalism is also a way of disuniting the UMMAH. As currently seen in the world, we are over FIFTY-FIVE MUSLIM COUNTRIES AND GROWING ! There should only be ONE Muslim country (Khilafah). **

Quran CLEARLY orders us NOT to be Divided

Quran CLEARLY orders us NOT to be divided and separated and yet we have REFUSED to do so and decided to live in over 55 countries.

We are too busy being proud Palestinian, Jordanian, Yemeni, Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi, Saudi Arabian, Syrian, Pakistani, Kashmiri, Chechen, Bosnian, Algerian, Libyan, Egyptian, Moroccan, Lebanese, Bengali, etc. How many more nationalities are we going to see in the UMMAH ? How many more divisions? How many more separations ? The Kaffir are killing us one by one, as seen in the “New World Order” (Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir, etc). Divide-and-conquer is really working on the UMMAH. Lets all work together to put an end to this nonsense called Nationalism, a completely alien, and forbidden ideology in Islam.

The Hadith Says:

**Resources From Messenger of Allah (saw)****Nationalism is HARAM because the Prophet Mohammad (saw) said in the following Hadeeths: ****"Leave it. It is Rotten " [Bukhari & Muslim] refers to all forms of Asabiyah, nationalism, racism, and patriotism. **

Grouping the Muslims on tribalistic lines is clearly forbidden. It is narrated by Abu Daud that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said, “He is not one us who calls for Asabiyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights for Asabiyah or who dies for Asabiyah."****" ...People should give up their pride in nations because this is a coal from the coals of hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than a lowly worm which pushes itself through khur (feces)." [abu Dawd and Tirmidhi].** **In the Hadith recorded in Mishkat al-Masabith, the Messenger of Allah (saw) said, "He who calls for Asabiyyah is as if he bit his father’s genitals” Also, the Messenger of Allah (saw) said, narrated by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud, “There are indeed people who boast of their dead ancestors; but in the sight of Allah they are more contemptible than the black beetle that rolls a piece of dung with its nose. Behold, Allah has removed from you the arrogance of the Time of Jahiliyyah (Ignorance) with its boast of ancestral glories. Man is but an Allah-fearing believer or an unfortunate sinner. All people are the children of Adam, and Adam was created out of dust.” Also, the Messenger of Allah (saw) said, “Undoubtedly Allah has removed from you the pride of arrogance of the age of Jahilliyah (ignorance) and the glorification of ancestors. Now people are of two kinds. Either believers who are aware or transgressors who do wrong. You are all the children of Adam and Adam was made of clay. People should give up their pride in nations because that is a coal from the coals of Hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than the lowly worm which pushes itself through Khara (dung).” [Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi] **When the news reached the Messenger of Allah (saw), he (saw) said, “O Muslims, remember Allah, remember Allah. Will you act as pagans while I am present with you after Allah has guided you to Islam, and honored you thereby and made a clean break with paganism; delivered you thereby from disbelief; and made you friends thereby?” When they heard this they wept, and embraced each other. This incident clearly highlights how the Messenger of Allah (saw) rebuked any forms of tribalism. ****It is narrated by Qatada that Ibnu Abi Hathim said that in the verses quoted above Allah (swt) has ordered the Muslims to hold fast to the book of Allah, His Deen, and to his covenant, and He has forbidden the Muslims to divide amongst themselves and to dispute with each other. In another incident, Jabir ibn Abd Allah al Ansari, narrated what happened at the watering place of al Muraysi which led to the Munafiqun stirring up the traces of Asabiyah and seeking to destroy the unity of the Muslims. He said: "We were on a raid when one of the Muhajirun kicked one of the Ansar. The Ansar said, O Ansar! Help me! (calling his tribe) and the Muhajir said, O Muhajirun! Help me! (calling his tribe). The Messenger of Allah (saw) heard them and said, “Why are you stirring up something which belongs to Jahilliyah?” The Messenger of Allah (saw) did not deal with the situation only by speaking to his men, but he walked with the men all that day until nightfall, and through the night until morning and during the following day until the sun distressed them. Then he halted them, and as soon as they touched the ground, they fell asleep. He did this to distract their minds from what had transpired. ****It is transmitted by at-Tabarani and al-Hakim that in one incident some people spoke very lowly about Salman al-Farsi. They spoke of the inferiority of the Persian in relation to the Arabs, and upon hearing this the Messenger of Allah (saw) declared, “Salman is from us, the ahl al-bayt (the Prophet’s family).” This statement of the Messenger of Allah (saw) disassociates all links based on lineage and tribal considerations. ****It was also transmitted, in two different versions, by Ibn al-Mubarak in his two books, Al-Birr and As-Salah, that some disagreement occurred between Abu Dharr and Bilal and Abu Dharr said to Bilal, “You son of a black woman.” The Messenger of Allah (saw) was extremely upset by Abu Dharr’s comment, so he (saw) rebuked him by saying, “That is too much, Abu Dharr. He who has a white mother has no advantage which makes him better than the son of a black mother.” This rebuke had a profound effect on Abu Dharr, who then put his head on the ground swearing that he would not raise it until Bilal had put his foot over it. These incidents demonstrate that tribal ties have no place in Islam. Muslims are commanded to stick together and not to disassociate themselves from each other just because they come from different tribes. ****The Messenger of Allah (saw) also said, “The believers, in their love, mutual kindness, and close ties, are like one body; when any part complains, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever.” [Muslim], “The faithful are like one man: if his eyes suffers, his whole body suffers.” [Muslim], “An Arab is no better than a non-Arab. In return, a non-Arab is no better than an Arab. A red raced man was not better than a black one except in piety. Mankind are all Adam’s children and Adam was created out of clay.” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of Abu Musa] Meaning that the Muslims, whether they are of Chinese, African, European or Asian origin, are one Ummah and they cannot be separated from each other. ****No tribalistic ties should ever break their unity. The Messenger of Allah (saw) said, “The Faithful are to one another like [parts of] a building - each part strengthening the others” and “Every Muslim is a brother to a Muslim, neither wronging him nor allowing him to be wronged. And if anyone helps his brother in need, Allah will help him in his own need; and if anyone removes a calamity from [another] Muslim, Allah will remove from him some of the calamities of the Day of Resurrection; and if anyone shields [another] Muslim from disgrace, Allah will shield him from the disgrace on the Day of Resurrection.” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of Abd Allah ibn Umar]. ****Some people claim that the Messenger of Allah (saw) approved of nationalism because during the migration to Madinah, he (saw) said about Makkah with tears in his (saw) eyes, “You are the most beloved land of Allah to me.” However, this saying has nothing to do with nationalism, and this can be seen from the full saying which people often do not quote, “You are the most beloved land of Allah to me because you are the most beloved land of Allah to Allah.” The Messenger of Allah’s (saw) love for Makkah was based on the noble status that Allah (swt) has given to Makkah, and not because he (saw) was born there. All Muslims should have this love and affection for Makkah because it is the most beloved land in the sight of Allah (swt). After all, the Muslims pray towards Makkah and go there to perform Hajj there as it houses the Ka’ba. **

**The above saying of the Messenger of Allah (saw) therefore has nothing to do with nationalism. If Rasoolillah (saw) and the Muhajireen amongst the Sahabah (ra) were tied to the homeland (of Makkah), they would have settled in Makkah after it became part of the Islamic State. Not only does Islam forbid people from grouping on nationalistic ties, but it also prohibits the establishment of more than one state, whether these states are based on nationalism or otherwise. The only state that is allowed for the Muslims is the Islamic State, which is a state that is governed exclusively by Islam. Allah (swt) addressed the Messenger (saw), “And rule between them by that which Allah revealed to you, and do not follow their vain desires away from the truth which came to you” [Surah Al-Madinah (5): ayah 48] and, “And rule between them by that which Allah revealed to you and do not follow their whims, and beware (be on the alert) that they may deviate you away from even some part of what Allah revealed to you.” **

[Surah Al-Maidah (5): ayah 49].
http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

And there you go again... There is no disagreement in terms of racism/nationalism as such.

ALL MANKIND IS ONE COMMUNITY - that is our destination.

I asked you a simple question which I will repeat again:

"Everytime a Khalifa used to passed away ... the ummah were often in the situation of headless state"

This means that either there is something inherently wrong this system that it is exibiting such a symptom, or that this is not what might have occured, and needed to be fabricated to justify monarchy/rule-based-on-lineage (eg, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid).

Look into your own heart, think logically, and then answer.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

This is not the time nor the place to talk at length at rectifying the 'head of Ummah' issue. It is far more complicated than that can be written on this thread. However, the basics are this:

1) Study the ills of capitalism.
2) Confront the anti-Islamic polemics and propaganda with what is truth, wisdom and kindness from Islam. Attempting to remove the stigma and false representations of Islam.
3) Make du'a to Allah (SWT) to remove our fitnah.

Iman is the power of the believer. However, we need to realise that distraction and worldliness are our biggest bane.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Pakistan is an Islamic state and Pakistan army is Islamic army in the sense that it is army of an Islamic state.

Else, Pakistan army is paid state army and their duty, loyalty, and responsibility should be for Pakistan. Pakistan employed them according to the need of the state (Pakistan), trains them, gives them money to live, gives them pension to live after retirement, and gives them arms to fulfil their duty. This army has no duty to defend anyone else, but it is Pakistan government (their pay master) that can decide what they in the army can or cannot do.

In any country, be that Islamic state or non-Islamic state, all armies are paid state army. In Islamic history, during the time of Umar (RA), volunteer Muslim army was replaced by paid state army.

*Islamic state is the state where majority of the people are Muslim (like present Pakistan and all other Muslim countries) and/or head of the state is absolute ruler and claims to be Muslim (like King or dictator, as it was in Muslim India or during earlier years, in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc). *

*In such state, as long as State allows Muslims to live peacefully, fulfil their religious rite, and follow Islamic personal laws, it is duty of Muslims to live there peacefully and obey the laws of the state. Islamic state does not demand that people are forced to follow a particular religion, neither it enforce Islamic worship rite on Muslims, but all commands of Allah related to worship is required to be followed by Muslims voluntarily. *

Pakistan** is not unique Islamic state as situation of Islamic state is same since the time of Prophet (SAW). If any doubt, try to find and read the constitution of first Islamic state ‘Madina’, known as Messaq-e-Madina, given by Prophet (SAW).**

Thus, if any Pakistani (Muslim or non-Muslim) decides to join Pakistan army they have all right to join Pakistan army and take army employment as profession.

Since Pakistan is an Islamic state, any Muslim that likes to be professional Muslim soldier can also join Pakistan army (if Pakistan government allows that). If Pakistan goes to war in defence of Pakistan, that war would be Jihad and any Muslim that dies in that war with intention of defending Pakistan, is Shaheed. (This jihad could be defence against any invading army, be that army from non-Muslim state or Islamic state)

We should remember that according to Islam, when a person dies (or get killed) while living within the laws of the land, defending himself, his property, his family, his rights, his community, his legal interest, or his person, is Shaheed. If a person get killed fulfilling his duty and responsibility is Shaheed. If a person gets killed in accident or due to some deceases is also Shaheed.

In other words, as long a person is Muslim, has Imaan, and is not killed by the law enforcement agencies, because that person was law breaker (state law), that person can be considered as Shaheed.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Another major aspect of appointing leadership is that those who are MOST wanting of the authority are the very ones LEAST fit for the responsibility.

Leaders pass away and new leaders need to be appointed. This is not an issue and this is not an inherent flaw as you suggest. It is the way things are done. The biggest calamity for the Ummah is the passing away of the prophet Muhammad (SAW), however, it cannot be said that he should not have passed away. The flaws are in people not in the system. They started to occur when the leaders hearts started to drift towards the dunya. Documented History this is!

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Sa1eem just to clarify Islamic state is not where most people are Muslim, rather it is where Islam is implemented. You are talking about a Muslim State.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

I think there is agreement that there are no "Islamic Sate of ...." today - in spite of their official country name. A majority Muslims nation does not make a country "An Islamic State".

So it isn't correct to say that any war fought by a majority Muslim state makes it a jihad or its dying soldiers shaheed.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Sister! What you mean by Islam is implemented?

I believe that Islam is implemented if people are free to fulfil all Islamic rite and rituals peacefully and can live according to Islam in their day to day life. What I know, what I mentioned is same what it was during Prophet (SAW) time too in Medina. So, what is the problem? In this sense, Pakistan is certainly a Islamic state.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

If we had one single Islamic state with all the muslims of the world recognizing it then what would be the nationality of that State?

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

That is not true at all! A Muslim who struggles for what is right irrespective of the state is doing a Jihad. Remember, jihad is NOT holy war. This concept is anti-Islamic. We do not wage wars as holy acts. However, a dying soldier may have died in a state that he was in true Jihad, who are we to say yes or no?

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Brother ... there is freedom to implement Islam on the individual level. Then there is the responsibliity of the government to implement Islam at the community and society level. This means shari'ah not jumuriat. Hope you understand.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Hypnotix2000...
Perspective in terms of what?...Islam doesnt recognise nations nor does it recognise borders so in what way is it Islamic to represent an army based on these values...for instance attacking a Muslim country based on a nationalistic course is hardly acceptable isit?...

Hareem...
Im not suggesting that you should make haram halal...what however is the view on military service when there is no Islamic state?...

USResident...
Heres the thing its nationality would be Islam and that is the bond under which it fights...it protects Islamic borders and propogates Islam...So its nationality essentially would indeed be Islam...

Sa1eem...
Pakistan is not an Islamic state...it is a secular state with Muslims in it...An Islamic state entails that sovereignty belongs to God and rulings are based on his laws not man made law which you have in Pakistan and the whole of the Muslim world...

Seminole...
I wouldnt want to label someone a shaheed or state that they arent but if the reason you are fighting has nothing to do with Islam then why would you die Shaheed...

Re: Islamically can you join a national army…

Sister, what is the nationality of a person who lives in an Islamic state? In modern lingo here is the definition of a nation (taken from www.dictionary.com)

By analogy, the large body of people in this definition would be the ummah or united muslim body. The territory would be the Islamic state’s geography. It would have a government of its own ruled by the Islam principles and laws. Now what would be the unifying factor, obviously our belief in Islam. Now any muslim who is part of this nation, would be indentified with a nationality that belongs to this territory.

Again taken from the same source a few definitions of Nationalism:

Now wouldn’t a muslim belonging to the nation state of Islam or the ummah be patriotic to it and further extending be a nationalist for his Islamic state. Being a nationalist means you are patriotic to a nation and that nation may stand for different things. An ummah is a nation that stands for Islam. A national of that nation is by all means a nationalist for the interests of Islam. In short Islam becomes your nationality instead of a piece of geography.

Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Muslim .... as Islam does not recognise the distinction of race or origin except that we might know one another by it. However, being a Muslim doesn't mean you have a nationality. Therefore, it speaks for itself, people will have to shed the concept of nationality together with their nationalism.