Islamically can you join a national army...

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Yes, it is not "system" in that verse.

Height of optimism :)
Height of optimism :)
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Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Heres more for you:

9:99 But some of the desert Arabs believe in Allah and the Last Day, and look on their payments as pious gifts bringing them nearer to Allah and obtaining the prayers of the Messenger. Aye, indeed they bring them nearer (to Him): soon will Allah admit them to His Mercy: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:103 Of their goods, take alms, that so thou mightest purify and sanctify them; and pray on their behalf. Verily thy prayers are a source of security for them: And Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth.

23:2 Those who humble themselves in their prayers;

23:9 And who (strictly) guard their prayers;-

وَمِنَ الأَعْرَابِ مَن يُؤْمِنُ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَيَتَّخِذُ مَا يُنفِقُ قُرُبَاتٍ عِندَ اللّهِ وَصَلَوَاتِ الرَّسُولِ أَلا إِنَّهَا قُرْبَةٌ لَّهُمْ سَيُدْخِلُهُمُ اللّهُ فِي رَحْمَتِهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً تُطَهِّرُهُمْ وَتُزَكِّيهِم بِهَا وَصَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ صَلاَتَكَ سَكَنٌ لَّهُمْ وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

الَّذِينَ هُمْ فِي صَلَاتِهِمْ خَاشِعُونَ

وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَى صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُون

Plural form used again here.

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oh lol so that is what you meant :) I thought you were going to present the verse after 2:238 :) anyhow, let me see. BTW, I am very happy that you are being patient with me.

Your premise: Prayer is timelimited, and to be performed at specific times... and as such, salawaat is plural of salaat. Then edges of the day (TARAIY), and approach of the night (ZULFAN) need a quantifiable entity that exibits plurality.

I have already answered about that... and I do not accept this as a viable trannslation.

Again, the context of the verses around the axis of this verses is hell-fire as a result of corruption and how God does not punish a society that has reformers? What then is the context of the edges of the day: Rise and Twilight, and then as Night approaches. In the context of the ruku' of this surah, is this not an allegory for the rise, fall and stagnation of a society?

It is interesting that 111 speaks of staying "on straight course" (ASTQIM) ... how do you stay on course? What do you follow? And to stay on course for paradise, what would you follow (be MuSallee of)? Through a ritual?

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Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

DUH!!!!

The premise of our overall discussion is to prove that prayer existed before the introduction of ahadith. I am doing this by giving references to the establishment of prayer through the Quran. It was not a ritual introduced by ahadith.

As for your commentary on the verse, the verses around the axis of this verse do talk about heaven and hell-fire but what you missed is for whom is it talking about. People who worship dieties other than Allah SWT. It is not a general premise of paradise or hell. It says not to imitate their forefathers in their form of worship and goes on to explain or reference about prayers for muslims or believers in Allah SWT. In further goes on to say that those things that are good wipe out those which are evil, what is meant is that the prayer that muslims are supposed establish will wipe of the custom of worship of their forefathers (which is evil because it gets them into hell-fire). That is the allegory not rise and fall of the society but how to overcome the ingrained false forms of worship from previous generations.

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Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

First off, I asked for a specific example... aqeem-us salawaat.

Second, you do realize there is no definite artical "al" before Salawaat in the example right... what other place such a thing has occured and for what?

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Will be back later on today Inshallah!

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no sir it is not talking about people who worship other "deities" perse...

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11:101 It was not We that wronged them: They wronged their own souls: the deities, other than Allah, whom they invoked, profited them no whit when there issued the decree of thy Lord: Nor did they add aught (to their lot) but perdition!
11:102 Such is the chastisement of thy Lord when He chastises communities in the midst of their wrong: grievous, indeed, and severe is His chastisement.
11:103 In that is a Sign for those who fear the penalty of the Hereafter: that is a Day for which mankind will be gathered together: that will be a Day of Testimony.
11:104 Nor shall We delay it but for a term appointed.
11:105 The day it arrives, no soul shall speak except by His leave: of those (gathered) some will be wretched and some will be blessed.
11:106 Those who are wretched shall be in the Fire: There will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs:
11:107 They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.
11:108 And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break.
11:109 **Be not then in doubt as to what these men worship. They worship nothing but what their fathers worshipped before (them): but verily We shall pay them back (in full) their portion **without (the least) abatement.
11:110 We certainly gave the Book to Moses, but differences arose therein: had it not been that a word had gone forth before from thy Lord, the matter would have been decided between them, but they are in suspicious doubt concerning it.
11:111 And, of a surety, to all will your Lord pay back (in full the recompense) of their deeds: for He knoweth well all that they do.
11:112 Therefore stand firm (in the straight Path) as thou art commanded,- thou and those who with thee turn (unto Allah.; and transgress not (from the Path): for He seeth well all that ye do.
11:113 And incline not to those who do wrong, or the Fire will seize you; and ye have no protectors other than Allah, nor shall ye be helped.
11:114 And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):
11:115 And be steadfast in patience; for verily Allah will not suffer the reward of the righteous to perish.
11:116 Why were there not, among the generations before you, persons possessed of balanced good sense, prohibiting (men) from mischief in the earth - except a few among them whom We saved (from harm)? But the wrong-doers pursued the enjoyment of the good things of life which were given them, and persisted in sin.

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Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

I reiterate...

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Dear bro, I don't think this is getting us anywhere will keep staying polarized...

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I think all you are doing is forcing the concept of a ritual to make it comform (as sectarians have always done) to a ritualistic meaning. Why is it that the Shia use these very verses to justify ritual prayer 3 times a day?

typo, corrected "confirm" to "conform"

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Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Told you before

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3 or 5, it still runs contrary to your point of not being prayer at all.

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again... it does not... my point is manipulation... why have they been able to do this?

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Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Dear bro,
Let me put an end to this pointless discussion. You asked of me why I think ritual prayer is not prescribed in the Quran right? Let me take the Yousif Ali's translation that incorrectly translates the word Salaat and Salawaat you referenced, and show you what the difference is between "a ritual" and "The Salaat"

وما ظلمنهم ولكن ظلموا أنفسهم فما أغنت عنهم ءالهتهم التي يدعون من دون الله من شيء لما جاء أمر ربك وما زادوهم غير تتبيب
It was not We that wronged them: They wronged their own souls: the deities, other than Allah, whom they invoked, profited them no whit when there issued the decree of thy Lord: Nor did they add aught (to their lot) but perdition!

فلا تك في مرية مما يعبد هؤلاء ما يعبدون إلا كما يعبد ءاباؤهم من قبل وإنا لموفوهم نصيبهم غير منقوص
Be not then in doubt as to what these men worship. They worship nothing but what their fathers worshipped before (them): but verily We shall pay them back (in full) their portion without (the least) abatement.

What have you deduced from these two verses? Hopefully you see that they used to "worship" the Aalihim (Their Gods) and this worship/invokation is in the form of a ritual/custom since v109 says that they followed in their forefathers footsteps. You yourself call it "custom" in your post.

So let us first look at the Aalihim first? Do we have similar verses pointing to the prophet Muhammad's people? YES:
أفرءيتم اللت والعزى - ومنوة الثالثة الأخرى
Have you seen Allat and The Strong One (Uzza) - and Destiny (Manaat) the third the Final One?

Were these their Gods? YES:
ألكم الذكر وله الأنثى
Do you have the males, while He has the females?

But what did the prophet's people say?
وجدنا عليها ءاباءنا
We found our fathers doing it
So it is that they too who have customs and rituals

And what else did they say?
والله أمرنا بها
and ALLAH has enjoined it upon us
So they do **think* that by performing these rituals they are worshipping Allah*

OK, what is the exalted prophet ordered to say?
قل إن الله لا يأمر بالفحشاء أتقولون على الله ما لا تعلمون
Say, `ALLAH never enjoins indecencies. Do you say of ALLAH that which you know not ?'

What is this evil? What were the people of Hud worshipping and what is similar to that of the tribe of the exalted prophet Muhammad?

What was this worship in the form of? A custom, a ritual...

What have these "customs" been called in the Quran? ألفحشاء ... And be careful that it is not specified that it is a specific custom - it says customs or rituals that people say, are what Allah has ordained.

What then is invokation or prayer according to the Quran linguistically? دعاء ... and it has no ritual. It is a straight communication with God. It means to "Call Upon"...

Then now my question to you is, if prayer/invokation is دعاء then what is it the Quran talks about when it says "The Salaat"? And that too that it must be ESTABLISHED?

Any rituals people associate with calling upon, is not prescribed in the Quran. Not only are they are not needed, they are not welcome in the eyes of God. Note that the people of the prophet said: wa Allahu Amarnaa Bihaa.

IMPORTANT PLEASE READ: About 11:101-109
There are two elements, one is that the people of Hud worshipped other "Gods" and the other is that they worshiped "WHAT-THEIR-FOREFATHERS-WORSHIPED-BEFORE-THEM" ... so their idols were not necessarily other deities: Their idols were their preconceived notions and their unfaltering trust in their CUSTOMS/RITUALS

Beyond this, I do not know what other "proof" you would need... and if you still do, kindly either keep looking on your own or keep believing that ritual namaaz is what "Allahu amarnaa bihaa". Wa Salam-un Alaikum wa Rahmat-u Allah

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Re: Islamically can you join a national army...

Can you please give references to the verses you have quoted for me to further comment. I had brought up this point before though since we do not agree on the same translations we are bound to disagree.

Your translations are not accepted by any recognized world body. Anyway I had asked why there is nothing in our history to speak about this shift and introduction of ritual prayer, you still have not provided an answer. We did get into myths that you thought run parallel to ritual prayer but yet have to produce a recorded event in history regarding this shift from any of the authentic sources.

Its awkward that we can trace back in history, murders of our Caliphs, our first civil war, events of martyrdom, introduction of taraweeh, shia sunni divides, even events such as Ghadir khum, suspension of hudood by Umar RA during the famine and various other events but something so colossal which changed our way of prayer cannot be traced or there is no recorded event in history about that. Even the introduction of Taraweeh is there but something like this is not there and that too after 200 years of firmly establishing prayers it got changed without a trace. This is simple common sense and trying to swim upstream by changing translations of the Quran will not overshadow these facts. I am assuming that you do not believe in ahadith altogether. This is the path you must choose if you stay with Quran only because the Quran says numerous places to pray and you cannot pray unless you believe in ahadith (at least some of them). So to sever the relationship between Quran and ahadith it is necessary to change the meaning of prayer to something else other than what is practiced by muslims today, there really is no other way to claim to follow Quran only without any reliance on ahadith.

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Brother, I have used Yousuf Ali's translations as per my initial statement in my post... Ma'salam... you very well know why I do not believe in the alleged sayings (recall that I had entertained your request to knock out the references of the Me'raaj tradition for argument sake). You asked me why and I told you why I think a certain way.

I have already told you that it took almost two centuries, two shifts of the Islamic capital and a whole lot of uprisings (even the undoing of the Umayyads) and then the rise and decline of the Abbasids...

I think we should not pursue this further since we both seem too entrenched... My point is that if you do wish to offer your prayers, at least keep in mind what "Allahu Amarnaa biha" and what "Iqaamat-is Salaat" is.

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JAK, Bro at least we kept it civil and that matters. Inshallah! Our paths will cross again someday on some other topic or this one again.