well said Archangel
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggthumb.gif
we have to realize that the time we spent on trying to correct such ignorant behaviour is completely useless. So i’d suggest that we stick to the original topic rather than pay attention to such nonsensical blabber.
[This message has been edited by hk (edited November 07, 2000).]
HK.. I apologise for drifting away from the origional topic of this thread... after all it is Your thread, but it just gets right up my nose when people who 'claim' to be muslims openly make derogatory and dis-respectful remarks about Islam. It's understandable (but NOT acceptable)when non-muslims do it. But why do so called muslims willingly defamate their own faith ?.
I don't think any of us are perfect Muslims, we all do our best and strive to mend our ways and follow Islam as best we can. But when the truth is right before someones eyes and they refuse to acknowledge it...well thats just blatant stupidity !.
sorry once again for drifting away from the topic !.
Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon you.
Death is only the Beginning.
[This message has been edited by Arch-Angel (edited November 08, 2000).]
no probs!! i really appreciated your comments though..however, i seriously doubt some of these people are actually muslims...who knows? they could be pretending to spread disagreement and controversy among the people on this forum. This idea's not so far fetched.
[quote]
Originally posted by Arch-Angel:
**
People who claim that Hadith (teachings of the Holy Prophet (SAW)) and Sunnah (Life of the Holy Prophet(SAW)) complicate Islam and make it harder to follow ...[cut] **
[/quote]
Quran, the word of Allah (sbwt) is not complete........ without the Hadith. There are many things in the Quran that can not be explained unless accompanied by Hadith. Aahadith explain the Quran and suppliment the Quran.
Another point: The Prophet (sws) was just that: a Prophet of God. He (sws) received the Word of Allah (sbwt). From the time of the start of Wahi, anything and everything the Prophet (sws) said was either recorded in the Quran or it was recorded as the Sunnah which also included His (sws) physical actions that He (sws) performed to implement the Quranic injunctions. The Sunnah can not be wrong since the Prophet (sws) could not have said anything, done anything, or thought of anything without the permission and guidance of Allah (sbwt). Those before us who authenticated the aahadith spent meticulous hours, days, weeks, and years to research and verify the authentications and the trees of references. There had to be multiple references to the same aahadith, from different sources, with the same reference tree for any hadith to be valid. That said, without taking up more points on this issue or with anyone else, I would like to say that, as we all know, when someone refuses to listen to a discussion with references to aahadith, as for a Muslim, that person should be disengaged from for Quran says so.
For anyone to argue their point infront of unbending minds is not allowed in Islam. Islam says to use the best of arguements. Once "you" have done that your duty is done. For a deeper discussion, one has to be a religious "scholar" of which most of us, nor I, are not.
Some very emotional and immature responses to my bashing of sodomising self proclaimed ulamas. But I expected that. Truth is very bitter and if every one will calm down, take a step back and listen to the other's point of view, we would be much better people as a nation. Now I don't think any one of you knows what my knowledge about religion is but I can tell you this much that I have read and understood quran. I did not simply recite it and then kiss it and put it back. I understood it and I follow it in my day to day life.
One of you said that its not like black and white and everything (Dinosaurs etc.) is not mentioned in Quran. Offcourse not, Quran is not encarta, it is a book to remind you of certain way of life and total submission to God and only God. ( You can say allah in arabic).
I don't believe that Quran was writtn by Mohammed. I consider Quran a word of God. Mohammed with no formal education at the age of 40, could not have written a book like this on his own. He was a messenger and gave us the book. After that, since it was very inconvenient for some of us , we created various other books to interpret Islam to suite our way of life and there are several examples of that. I don't beleive in anything about religion written by a human. That's not compatible with my relationship with my God. If don't wear a burqa, that's my problem. I don't think that an illiterate effen mullah will tell me what to do with my life. i just think that's right. bye for now, will return with more on this topic.
Did I hear somebody say that everybody should get back to the topic?
This issue of zabiha meat was answered in detail by one scholar in India: Dr Zakir Naik from the Islamic Research Institute in Mumbai. I thought it might be a good summary of all the points that have been explained throughout the post. It doesn’t contain anything that hasn’t already been mentioned…
**Why do Muslims slaughter the animal in a ruthless manner by torturing it and slowly and painfully killing it?
Answer:**
The Islamic method of slaughtering animals, known as Zabiha has been the object of much criticism from a large number of people.
One may consider the following points, which prove that the Zabiha method is not only humane but also scientifically the best:
Zakkaytum is a verb derived from the root word Zakah (to purify). It’s infinitive is Tazkiyah which means purification. The Islamic mode of slaughtering an animal requires the following conditions to be met:
a. The animal has to be slaughtered with a sharp object (knife) and in a fast way so that the pain of slaughter is minimised.
b. Cut wind pipe, throat and vessels of neck.
Zabiha is an Arabic word, which means ‘slaughtered’. The ‘slaughtering’ is to be done by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord.
c. The blood has to be drained completely before the head is removed. The purpose is to drain out most of the blood which would serve as a good culture medium for micro-organisms. The spinal cord must not be cut because the nerve fibres to the heart could be damaged during the process causing cardiac arrest, stagnating the blood in the blood vessels.
Blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. Therefore the Muslim way of slaughtering is more hygienic as most of the blood containing germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. that are the cause of several diseases are eliminated.
Meat slaughtered by Islamic way remains fresh for a longer time due to deficiency of blood in the meat as compared to other methods of slaughtering.
The swift cutting of vessels of the neck disconnects the flow of blood to the nerve of the brain responsible for pain. Thus the animal does not feel pain. While dying, the animal struggles, writhers, shakes and kicks, not due to pain, but due to the contraction and relaxation of the muscles deficient in blood and due to the flow of blood out of the body.
Dr Zakir Naik http://www.irf.net
I hope this helps.
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
good article partypooper…
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
as for amy..we’re talking about the Islamic method of slaughter here…not about ur disregard of the hadith..i’ve had enough of that already..im sticking to my point about the authenticity of the hadith. If you follow the Quran in your day-to-day life, as you say, you’d know that Allah (SWT) has commanded Muslims to follow the example of our Beloved Prophet (SAW). End of discussion.
Now…back to the topic of zabeeha..
[This message has been edited by hk (edited November 10, 2000).]
Damn, you have learnt a few words of english, just don’t get out of your clothes.
Slaughtering animals is cruel, inhuman and no where in Quran has it been mentioned. Anger and emotion and loud messages cannot justify cruelty to animals. A totally un-islamic tradition to slaughter an animal and then eat it. Terrible.
Amy, I understand your sentiments. If you personally feel that you should not eat meat, then that is okay with Islam. A good muslim can a vegetarian. But please remember that it is a choice that Islam has given you. It has not said that eating meat is haram. Since this is the case then why do you seek to make something which is halal into something haram?
There is a scholar who has responded to people with your concerns. He is Dr. Zakir Naik from the Islamic Research Foundation in Mumbai. For your convenience, the article has been given below the link.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Question:
Killing an animal is a ruthless act. Why then do Muslims consume non-vegetarian food?
Answer:
‘Vegetarianism’ is now a movement the world over. Many even associate it with animal rights. Indeed, a large number of people consider the consumption of meat and other non-vegetarian products to be a violation of animal rights.
Islam enjoins mercy and compassion for all living creatures. At the same time Islam maintains that Allah has created the earth and its wondrous flora and fauna for the benefit of mankind. It is upto mankind to use every resource in this world judiciously, as a niyamat (Divine blessing) and amanat (trust) from Allah.
Let us look at various other aspects of this argument.
A Muslim can be a very good Muslim despite being a pure vegetarian. It is not compulsory for a Muslim to have non-vegetarian food.
The Qur’an, however permits a Muslim to have non-vegetarian food. The following Qur’anic verses are proof of this fact:
“O ye who believe! Fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals with the exceptions named.”
[Al-Qur’an 5:1]
“And cattle He has created for you (men): from them Ye derive warmth, and numerous benefits, And of their (meat) ye eat.”
[Al-Qur’an 16:5]
“And in cattle (too) ye have an instructive example: From within their bodies We produce (milk) for you to drink; there are, in them, (besides), numerous (other) benefits for you; and of their (meat) ye eat.”
[Al-Qur’an 23:21]
Non-vegetarian food is a good source of excellent protein. It contains biologically complete protein i.e. all the 8 essential amino acid that are not synthesised by the body and should be supplied in the diet. Meat also contains iron, vitamin B1 and niacin.
If you observe the teeth of herbivorous animals like the cow, goat and sheep, you will find something strikingly similar in all of them. All these animals have a set of flat teeth i.e. suited for herbivorous diet. If you observe the set of teeth of the carnivorous animals like the lion, tiger, or leopard, they all have a set of pointed teeth i.e. suited for a carnivorous diet. If you analyse the set of teeth of humans, you find that they have flat teeth as well as pointed teeth. Thus they have teeth suited for both herbivorous as well as carnivorous food i.e. they are omnivorous. One may ask, if Almighty God wanted humans to have only vegetables, why did He provide us also with pointed teeth? It is logical that He expected us to need and to have both vegetarian as well as non-vegetarian food.
The digestive system of herbivorous animals can digest only vegetables. The digestive system of carnivorous animals can digest only meat. But the digestive system of humans can digest both vegetarian and non-vegetarian food. If Almighty God wanted us to have only vegetables then why did He give us a digestive system that can digest both vegetarian as well as non-vegetarian food?
Certain religions have adopted pure vegetarianism as a dietary law because they are totally against the killing of living creatures. If a person can survive without killing any living creature, I would be the first person to adopt such a way of life. In the past people thought plants were lifeless. Today it is a universal fact that even plants have life. Thus their logic of not killing living creatures is not fulfilled even by being a pure vegetarian.
They further argue that plants cannot feel pain, therefore killing a plant is a lesser crime as compared to killing an animal. Today science tells us that even plants can feel pain. But the cry of the plant cannot be heard by the human being. This is due to the inability of the human ear to hear sounds that are not in the audible range i.e. 20 Hertz to 20,000 Hertz. Anything below and above this range cannot be heard by a human being. A dog can hear up to 40,000 Hertz. Thus there are silent dog whistles that have a frequency of more than 20,000 Hertz and less than 40,000 Hertz. These whistles are only heard by dogs and not by human beings. The dog recognises the master’s whistle and comes to the master. There was research done by a farmer in U.S.A. who invented an instrument that converted the cry of the plant so that it could be heard by human beings. He was able to realise immediately when the plant itself cried for water. Latest researches show that the plants can even feel happy and sad. It can also cry.
Once a vegetarian argued his case by saying that plants only have two or three senses while the animals have five senses.
Therefore killing a plant is a lesser crime than killing an animal. Suppose your brother is born deaf and dumb and has two senses less as compared to other human beings. He becomes mature and someone murders him. Would you ask the judge to give the murderer a lesser punishment because your brother has two senses less? In fact you would say that he has killed a masoom, an innocent person, and the judge should give the murderer a greater punishment.
In fact the Qur’an says:
“O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, lawful and good”
[Al-Qur’an 2:168]
If every human being was a vegetarian, it would lead to overpopulation of cattle in the world, since their reproduction and multiplication is very swift. Allah (swt) in His Divine Wisdom knows how to maintain the balance of His creation appropriately. No wonder He has permitted us to have the meat of the cattle.
I hope you found the article interesting.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
[quote]
Originally posted by amy:
Some very emotional and immature responses to my bashing of sodomising self proclaimed ulamas. But I expected that. Truth is very bitter and if every one will calm down, take a step back and listen to the other's point of view, we would be much better people as a nation. Now I don't think any one of you knows what my knowledge about religion is but I can tell you this much that I have read and understood quran. I did not simply recite it and then kiss it and put it back. I understood it and I follow it in my day to day life.
One of you said that its not like black and white and everything (Dinosaurs etc.) is not mentioned in Quran. Offcourse not, Quran is not encarta, it is a book to remind you of certain way of life and total submission to God and only God. ( You can say allah in arabic).
I don't believe that Quran was writtn by Mohammed. I consider Quran a word of God. Mohammed with no formal education at the age of 40, could not have written a book like this on his own. He was a messenger and gave us the book. After that, since it was very inconvenient for some of us , we created various other books to interpret Islam to suite our way of life and there are several examples of that. I don't beleive in anything about religion written by a human. That's not compatible with my relationship with my God. If don't wear a burqa, that's my problem. I don't think that an illiterate effen mullah will tell me what to do with my life. i just think that's right. bye for now, will return with more on this topic.
[/quote]
Amy,you probably have an anglo nick but an eastern birth,unlike sister Noor here who was born in the west & anglo ,with which you seem si imbibed that any thing contrary to that ,you will deny it like hadith &sunnah.But remeber Islam is the fastest growing religion in the west & women are converting at the ratio of 4 women to 1 man,so it cant be oippressive but liberting in the metaphysical sense which is abve you to grasp ,for ppl. like you only go for the visible tangible eye dazzling signs & symbols.These new converts follow to the letter Hadith &Sunnah that will put you .ignorent to shame
Women
The noble position of Women in Islam
In looking at Islam’s teachings about women, the place to start is the
spiritual level, since that is the most important. Then we can look at
social roles. The Qur'an affirms that women are the spiritual equals of
men, with the same responsibilities to worship God and the same rewards
for doing so:
“For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men
and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and
constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who
give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard
their chastity, and for men and women who remember Allah’s profusely,
for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and great reward.”1
“Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and is a believer [in
Islamic monotheism], I will give them a good and pure life [in this
world], and I will bestow on them their reward [in the Hereafter]
according to the best of their actions.”2
“Believing men and women are allies and protectors of one another. They
enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil; they observe regular
prayers, practice regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On
them will Allah pour His Mercy, for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.”3
On the Social Level:
As a mother:
Every person has a mother. When a man asked Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who
had the greatest right to his good company and treatment, the Prophet
(pbuh) replied, “Your mother.” He asked him, “Who next?” He replied,
“Your mother.” He asked him, “Who next?” He replied, “Your mother.” He
asked him, “Who next?” He replied, “Your father.”4 This indicates that a
child must go out of his way to fulfill his mother’s rights, and in case
there is a conflict between her rights and his father’s rights, her
rights are given precedence.
The Prophet (pbuh) also stated that the only way a man could repay his
father would be if he were to find him as a slave and purchase his
freedom.5 His silence about the case of the mother indicates that there
is no way a child could repay his mother for all she went through on his
behalf. She endured the rigors of pregnancy and the pain of childbirth.
She nursed the child. She changed thousands of soiled diapers. She put
up with his crying and whining. When he was hurt she comforted him. When
he was sick she stayed up to tend him. She pushed him to make the best
of himself.
As a daughter:
Many cultures throughout history have placed a premium on sons and
considered daughters a misfortune. This attitude is condemned in the
Qur'an: “When news is brought to one of them, of (the birth of) a female
(child), his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief. He hides
himself from his people in shame because of the bad news he has
received. Shall he retain it on (sufferance and) contempt, or bury it in
the dust? How evil is their judgment!”6
Kind treatment of daughters has been identified as one of the paths to
Paradise. Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) remarked, “Whoever is tested with
[the responsibility of raising] daughters and treats them well, they
will be protection for him against Hellfire.”7 Anas ibn Maalik quoted
Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) as saying, “Whoever raises two daughters
[properly] until they reach adulthood, he and I will come on the Day of
Resurrection [like this],” and he joined his fingers.8 A father’s
responsibility to his daughters does not end with adulthood, which is
legally defined as puberty, i.e., menstruation. It only ends when she is
married and goes to live with her husband.
Marriage
Allah said, “And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates
from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and
He has put love and mercy between your (hearts). Verily in that are
signs for those who reflect.”9 Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, “One who
marries has taken a step to complete half his religion; so let him be
conscientious of his duty to Allah in the remaining half.”10 Marriage is
considered half the religion because of its importance to maintaining
human society. And on an individual level it is intended to develop the
qualities of love and mercy mentioned in the verse and the ability to
give and take, compromise and accommodate. Consent A woman’s consent is
necessary for the validity of the marriage. 'Aa’ishah mentioned that she
asked Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) about a virgin whose guardian gets her
married, whether or not it is necessary to consult her. Allah’s
Messenger (pbuh) said, “Yes, she must be consulted.” 'Aa’ishah remarked,
“But she feels shy.” Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) said, “Her silence implies
her consent.”11 Ibn 'Abbaas reported that the Prophet (pbuh) said, “A
previously married woman without a husband has more right to her person
than her guardian; and a virgin’s consent must be asked from her, and
her silence implies her consent.”12 If a girl who has attained puberty
is married off without her consent, she has the right to ask a judge to
annul the marriage. The proof for this is that a young woman came to the
Prophet (pbuh) complaining that her father had married her against her
will. He gave her the choice to annul the marriage. In the version of
Ibn Maajah and Aboo Daawood, the woman was a virgin.13
Some of a wife’s rights
The husband is required to give a present to his wife upon marrying her.
Any property she owned before marriage remains hers, and she may dispose
of it as she sees fit. Her husband is obligated to support her. The
expenses of housing, food, clothing, transportation, health care and
children’s education are his responsibility. If she chooses to
contribute any money to these expenses, it is counted as charity from
her to her husband. A Muslim woman keeps her own name after marriage.
Consultation between husband and wife
A couple’s affairs should be conducted on the basis of mutual
consultation. This principle is established in the following verse. In
the course of giving instructions to breastfeed children it states: “If
the two [parents] decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due
consultation, there is no blame on them.”14 Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
provided an example for his followers in accepting the advice of his
wives even in issues unrelated to household affairs. When he took his
followers to perform 'Umrah (the Lesser Pilgrimage), the pagans of
Makkah barred them from entering the city. The Prophet (pbuh) negotiated
a treaty with them that required the Muslims to turn back at that time
and come back the following year to perform 'Umrah. When the Prophet
(pbuh) ordered his followers to shave their heads and sacrifice their
animals to signify the abandonment of their 'Umrah, they were reluctant
to do so. He entered his tent and his wife Umm Salamah asked him why he
was upset. When he explained the cause, she suggested, “Why don’t you go
out and sacrifice your animal and shave your head in front of them? When
they see your act they will follow your example.” He accepted her
suggestion, and, just as she had predicted, when his followers saw him
doing what he had asked them to do they hurried to do the same.15
The question arises: What is to be done if the husband and wife cannot
agree on a policy after mutual consultation? Since there are only two of
them, there must be a tiebreaker. Allah has given the husband that
responsibility. “Women have rights similar to the rights against them,
according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage)
over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”16 “Men are the
protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one
more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their
means. Therefore righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the
husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard.”17
Various responses are just cut and paste from various web sites without any acknowledgement for the original authors. That's plagiarism and I don't read those.
Amy, if you look at my reply, you will find that it is not plagiarised.
They shoot partypoopers, don't they?
[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Partypooper:
**Amy, if you look at my reply, you will find that it is not plagiarised.
**
[/quote]
Accurate quranic quotes but where's the slaughtering?
That was provided before... in the earlier reply.
But there was nothing new said there...
They shoot partypoopers, don't they?
Hang on… I’ll try to get that info to you…
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
Amy ok i mite be completely off the mark but here are my $0.02 . This often happens to Children born in a totally non-islamic environment. They grow up with not an ounce of islamic knowledge in their heads and in their young adulthood they revert back to their roots in such a manner that they completely deny the work of others in order to "revitalize" islam. I personally think it is very arrogant of you. Islam is a sublime religion yes but by the way you are acting it doesn't seem like you have any knowledge about the fundamental essence of Islam.
Anyways .. like chacha ghalib once said
"Dil Azzari Kufr hay "
so learn to love first and then preach Islam. Stop being hard-headed or ud be the islamic version of Martin Luther.
mind ur language and stick to the topic..what does my speaking english have anything to do with this??
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hoonh.gif
As for ur assumption that the Quran doesnt mention the slaughtering of animals..all i can say is that its ur life, believe what you want…dont try to impose it on others.
Tell me one thing, does the Quran PROHIBIT the eating of ALL meat anywhere?? NO. It is very clear about what foods are haram/forbidden. What ur talking about has nothing to do with Islam but rather ur own point of view, so state it as such.
I guess if we were to listen to ur view, Prophet Muhammad (saw) would also be a cruel human being since he ate meat
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hoonh.gif
[This message has been edited by hk (edited November 10, 2000).]
To start of: I have nothing to discuss with Amy or prove anything to her. Under the state of the present discussion, Amy and everyone is right in their respective beliefs.
O.K., so for everyone else:
If you people know that this person is a Muslim then you shouldn't really go into deep discusson on the permisability of slaughtering of animals and whether Islam allows it or not.
Those of you trying your level-best to justify your positions so whole-heartedly should know, that, sharyatan, pointless debate with anyone is not allowed, specially on topics of religion. The other person is negating all the inputs of everyone, so leave it at that. If Amy is a Muslim, let her prove by the book that the Muslims consider as their Holy book, as well as the sayings of the Musilm Prophet (sws), that the slaughter of animals is not allowed. For the Muslims, this practice started from the earliest revelations of Allah's (sbwt) message over 5,000 yrs. ago.
For the purpose of this discussion, when two parties do not recognize or try to understand the other's stand/point of view/belief in an amicable manner, according to sharyat, there must be disengagement.
When a discussion introduces emotional states then the discussion is over. There is nothing to be said from that point on for the discussion then takes place from the heart instead of the mind.
For all the Muslism (not tring to point fingers): If you are trying to prove something religious then apply the religious code of conduct; Otherwise, you are doing a disservice to Islam in Allah's (sbwt) eyes.
