Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
As I said, I was not reading for that purpose. Personally, I have more concern that shooting stars drive away the devil than the fact that stars are called missles. That is the type of passage that leads me to say the Quran was not the masterpiece some believe.
But I have read articles of the inconsistencies of the Quran, Dr. Zakir Naik's responses, and critical resonses to his answers. After that I do think it is a mistake to call the Quran mistake free.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
As I said, I was not reading for that purpose. Personally, I have more concern that shooting stars drive away the devil than the fact that stars are called missles. That is the type of passage that leads me to say the Quran was not the masterpiece some believe.
But I have read articles of the inconsistencies of the Quran, Dr. Zakir Naik's responses, and critical resonses to his answers. After that I do think it is a mistake to call the Quran mistake free.
Its interesting you can believe in God but not other supernatural things stated about his dominion.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
No, I just think it is silly to say shooting stars drive the devils away. That sounds like paganism to me. And I think a message that is the FINAL message to mankind would call planets and stars for what they are - not lamps and missles.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
No, I just think it is silly to say shooting stars drive the devils away. That sounds like paganism to me. And I think a message that is the FINAL message to mankind would call planets and stars for what they are - not lamps and missles.
That based on knowledge of today. It would be pretty incomprehensible to people at that time. Btw it does call planets in stars what they were back then, if you read the arabic terminology. In arabic they are still called the same things. Ofcourse English language is relatively new. For a person living in 7th century, a shining bright star in the sky is pretty much like a lamp isn't it. The sky is adorned with such lamps. Here is what I meant when you read parables in the Quran. If you read English poetry I am sure you would find many interesting parables as well. It is parables like these where the beauty of the Quran is lost in translation but not for those who can see through the translation.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
You are comparing poetry with scripture. One is supposed to be words of God, the other fictional words of man. Of course poetry has parables. In my view so do ancient texts and not just when we find words like this that don't have the proper meaning, but in many of the stories.
So do you believe shooting stars chase away the devils?
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
Peace All
JazakAllah Khair to all who have supported the clarification and shown Ummm for the mistakes he is making with regards to accusing the Qur'an.
People need to understand just because the Qur'an is in conflict with their thoughts it does not mean it is in conflict with itself.
To clarify a few points in summary:
The issue of bedsheets and the accusation of this implying that the Earth is flat. If that is the case then I would like to draw peoples attention to the terms, plateau, plate, platform, platter, these are derived and share etymological roots to the words plattus, platys, plat - phlat - flat ... The word we know today as flat has itself been derived from the same word that the word 'plate' has been derived. Now if flatness was such an issue why is it that in modern science we refer to plate-techtonics as the science behind crust and land physics? This should be enough to explode the accusation that Islam 'thought' that the Earth was 'flat' rather in those particular verses where 'flatness' is being referred to, the context is not dissimilar to what we now know today as plate-techtonics.
As for the idea devils and the shooting stars, well Islam tells why things happen and people should not confuse this with how things happen. It is ofcourse going to be impossible for an atheist to entertain why something happens rather they will always explain things away with the how and never ask the question why. And when asked they use the how to explain it. Such is the case with the shooting stars. We know how they form and to us it seems random enough, but that is not what the Qur'an tells us. We accept this explanation and neither do these verses play any part in suggesting that the Qur'an is or is not scientifically accurate, because both can be true at the same time i.e. devils can be warded away at the same time as a meteor shower, one does not logically negate the other.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
You are comparing poetry with scripture. One is supposed to be words of God, the other fictional words of man. Of course poetry has parables. In my view so do ancient texts and not just when we find words like this that don't have the proper meaning, but in many of the stories.
So do you believe shooting stars chase away the devils?
Only comparing the world of parables not the scriptures vs. poetry. Not devils, Jinn. But you don't believe in Jinn so its a moot point to argue. I believe every single thing in the Quran and we cannot prove everything in it in a lifetime. Somethings only become apparent after we die. So eventually we'll all know if we were mistaken when we chose to believe in God. Now does my belief hurt anyone, I think not. Shooting stars can definitely be explained as a concrete scientific phenomenon as can everything else. However there are certain unseen things that cannot and that is where belief if not proven cannot be disproven either.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
Let's assume God sends a meteoroid into the earth's atmosphere every time devils are warded away, what possible reason would he have to put that in his final book? Anyway, the book is only 77,000 words, it seems like such a waste to devote so many words to such useless information.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
Let's assume God sends a meteoroid into the earth's atmosphere every time devils are warded away, what possible reason would he have to put that in his final book? Anyway, the book is only 77,000 words, it seems like such a waste to devote so many words to such useless information.
Seminole, therefore, we always look into the context and complete guidance from Quran. The scenario of shooting stars as far as I can recall is mentioned in two places in Quran and the context is very clear. Islam forbids going to a fortune/future-teller and Quran explains that the devils (companions of satan among Jinns) hear some of the commands given to angels to be carried out in future. Those satan devils are then, ward off using shooting stars, hence, they are never aware of the full commands. They come to earth and tell these things to the fortune-tellers - of course, the KNOWLEDGE of magic and mingling of such people with Jinns is also evident as TRUE stories of Prophet Solomon (Sulayman), angels like Harut and Marut, and Prophet Moses are also explained in Quran (and bible and torah) under the same pretext. Now that since, they do not hear it completely, they mix their own things up and hence the fortune-teller ends up stating something that is not true in its entirety.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
Seminole, therefore, we always look into the context and complete guidance from Quran. The scenario of shooting stars as far as I can recall is mentioned in two places in Quran and the context is very clear. Islam forbids going to a fortune/future-teller and Quran explains that the devils (companions of satan among Jinns) hear some of the commands given to angels to be carried out in future. Those satan devils are then, ward off using shooting stars, hence, they are never aware of the full commands. They come to earth and tell these things to the fortune-tellers - of course, the KNOWLEDGE of magic and mingling of such people with Jinns is also evident as TRUE stories of Prophet Solomon (Sulayman), angels like Harut and Marut, and Prophet Moses are also explained in Quran (and bible and torah) under the same pretext. Now that since, they do not hear it completely, they mix their own things up and hence the fortune-teller ends up stating something that is not true in its entirety.
Precisely, thats what is explained when taken in the proper context.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
Well that explains the reasoning for including it in the Quran but this mystical/magical devil story still beguiles the imagination. That is some aim and timing that God has to send a meteroid millions of light years across the universe to intercept a devil at the precise moment he is coming to earth to tell his secrets. Seems like it would be a lot easier for him build a sound proof room so the devils can't overhear the angels.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
What I don't understand is this.
Faith is faith. It is something you take as self evident. If you try and rationalize it, using normal day to day reasoning and logic, you will fail everytime. Because, for example, you cannot prove the validity of Quran without the evidence of Quran and in normal reasoning, such logic is not acceptable.
Just say that is what islam is, that is what you believe in and don't try to prove it is scientific. What do you gain by trying to prove it is scientific?
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
^The objective is never to spite people and/or rub it in their faces. That is not how you invite people to the 'truth'.
The reason proving is needed is to show that a divine book is absolutely perfect, free of errors that any human or creature might make. And that it is the absolute word of God. (If you believe in God, that is!!). And to prove it scientifically is most intriguing because people back then did not have the knowledge that we have today through science, yet every discovery made today, has and was already explained and presented in the book. That............is amazing (to the believers anyways, and those willing to learn with an open heart and mind). The purpose to prove anything, when needed, is thereby to guide others.
Whether or not people accept is their decision, their faith, their choice. The only thing muslims do and ought to do is just to give the message. That is all. It doesn't even have to be verbal, it can be actions of a momin. Everything that a practicing muslim does, is in line with the holy book Quran, therefore a reflection of the teachings of the text and performed actions in the way Prophet (pbuh) taught us.
I think that is what most people who post here try to do. Just to guide others. And to present facts and brush off the misconceptions about the faith.
Muslims DO NOT have a monopoly over heaven or God. Allah created us all, and will alone judge us all. We're only ambassadors of the message before the judgement comes, so we can guide each other because every soul will be questioned about their deeds. Believers of the monotheisitc faith will be scrutinized as to whether they gave the message their Prophets brought.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
No, I just think it is silly to say shooting stars drive the devils away. That sounds like paganism to me. And I think a message that is the FINAL message to mankind would call planets and stars for what they are - not lamps and missles.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
Umm is nowhere to be seen.
I guess you're his/her replacement, eh?
Annnnyyways!
To prove that the Quran is the Word of Allah, you do not have to indulge into futile discussions or philosophical dialect. You have at your disposal a “living material evidence,” the Quran itself. Starting with the null hypothesis, i.e., assuming that the Quran is not the word of God, one should ask himself/herself: could a human being in the seventh century write such a book? Or does there exist—up till today—any book that is claimed to match the Quran?
Atheists need to sleep as well! And what more, i have caught cold! :(
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
Peace All
JazakAllah Khair to all who have supported the clarification and shown Ummm for the mistakes he is making with regards to accusing the Qur'an.
People need to understand just because the Qur'an is in conflict with their thoughts it does not mean it is in conflict with itself.
To clarify a few points in summary:
The issue of bedsheets and the accusation of this implying that the Earth is flat. If that is the case then I would like to draw peoples attention to the terms, plateau, plate, platform, platter, these are derived and share etymological roots to the words plattus, platys, plat - phlat - flat ... The word we know today as flat has itself been derived from the same word that the word 'plate' has been derived. Now if flatness was such an issue why is it that in modern science we refer to plate-techtonics as the science behind crust and land physics? This should be enough to explode the accusation that Islam 'thought' that the Earth was 'flat' rather in those particular verses where 'flatness' is being referred to, the context is not dissimilar to what we now know today as plate-techtonics.
As for the idea devils and the shooting stars, well Islam tells why things happen and people should not confuse this with how things happen. It is ofcourse going to be impossible for an atheist to entertain why something happens rather they will always explain things away with the how and never ask the question why. And when asked they use the how to explain it. Such is the case with the shooting stars. We know how they form and to us it seems random enough, but that is not what the Qur'an tells us. We accept this explanation and neither do these verses play any part in suggesting that the Qur'an is or is not scientifically accurate, because both can be true at the same time i.e. devils can be warded away at the same time as a meteor shower, one does not logically negate the other.
Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm
[QUOTE]
That based on knowledge of today. It would be pretty incomprehensible to people at that time.
[/QUOTE]
Mohammad is supposed to be the last prophet. Islam should answer to all generations that came after him. Isn't it unfair of Allah that he made the Quran suitable to desert-people's comprehension- which obviously makes it look far-fetched from the 21st century point of view.
Either Quran should retain its meaning ( and not be turned into a parable ) for all time to come or Allah should send mre Prophets.
BTW, how is saying shooting stars drive devils away becomes a parable?