Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Society Religion & Philosophy
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This is what was written by ummm …

**Peace to you too.

None of the above verses however show you that Islam promotes thinking. I am not talking about “fanciful” thoughts. I am talking about beleiving insomething only if you have some proof. Isn’t beleiving in a paradise after death a fanciful hought? IT CERTAINLY IS. Paradise is just an invention, a fanciful belief to reassure people who are scared of death(most are).

As for the challenge, it has been proved beyond doubt that many things in Islam are false( ex: the earth isn’t flat)**

Unfortunately the thread is now closed. The proof is in the Qur’an itself. As the Qur’an is itself proof of something from the Divine. The belief in paradise after death is not therefore a fanciful thought, because we do not originate those thoughts, we submit to what is being told to us in our scripture.

Now the assertion is that paradise is just an invention. It is that thought that is a fanciful thought. Not because of the matter of evidence of it rather because it is being initiated by your mind and that you have no scriptural evidence to justify your position, nor can it be shown that the Qur’an and Sunnah is not consistent with this belief about the afterlife.

Most if not all religious orders believe in an afterlife of some sort and if they have all created this ‘fanciful thought’ one needs to prove that this is so. Scriptures can be made up, but if that is the case then that needs to be proven also.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

brother who is "umm"? Can i take on this person?

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

^ hopefully not physically! Why do you need psyah's permission to post yourself?

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Assalamu'alaikum bro.

By all means do so ... he may arrive here ... he may not ... as far has what he said I think it is important to clarify to non-Muslims and Muslims alike that.

1) Belief in the unseen is required, but belief in what we see fit is not.
2) That the Qur'an testifies for it's own authenticity and challenges people to bring anything like it to prove that man can make something like the Qur'an therefore nullifying the claim of the Qur'an as being God's Word. The fact nothing like the Qur'an can be brought.

Let's see how ummm can address these issues seeing that the Henna thread has been closed ... rightly so too.

What is the best gift
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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

take on! OMG!! You can take me on this forum but no swords pistols! LOL.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

[QUOTE]

The proof is in the Qur'an itself. As the Qur'an is itself proof of something from the Divine

[/QUOTE]

No it is not. Prove to me that the Quran is from the divine. What is this "divinity" in the first place. If the Quran is really true, why is it there are so many things in that book that are inconsistent with what we know to be true.

[QUOTE]

1) Belief in the unseen is required, but belief in what we see fit is not.

[/QUOTE]

It WAS required in the past for rulers to subjugate people. Today, people can not be fooled so easily.

[QUOTE]

Most if not all religious orders believe in an afterlife of some sort and if they have all created this 'fanciful thought' one needs to prove that this is so

[/QUOTE]

Most religious orders beleiving in afterlife doesn't make afterlife true. It rather shows man's own insecurity and his fear of death. I think this fear of death is in our DNA itself because fear of death is also a motivation to live and defend oneself.

paradise is just an initiative to make a person religious. "You follow my religion, you will go to paradise where you will get loads of wine and whores and whatnot." All religions show thmselves as vehicles to heaven. It's rather like offering candies to a child.

Who do you really want to meet off GS?
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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

[QUOTE]

2) That the Qur'an testifies for it's own authenticity and challenges people to bring anything like it to prove that man can make something like the Qur'an therefore nullifying the claim of the Qur'an as being God's Word. The fact nothing like the Qur'an can be brought.

[/QUOTE]

There are plenty of books written by humans which I think are better than any religious book. Then again, "I think". What I think won;t matter, will it? Will you everaccept a book written by a human as equal to Quran? then who decides which book is better? forgive me, but I think this "Sura like it " challenge is silly.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Peace ummm

The Qur'an itself testifies against people who believe as you do. I cannot prove to you anything if you ae not willing to accept it, even if the presented evidence is tangible. None can guide who Allah (SWT) let's go astray. Not my words God's Words.

When I said required ... I meant that it was the requirement for us by God. That requirement has not changed.

And lo and behold you have testified to a belief that you cannot prove, nor do you have as much as an iota of evidence for it. How is your belief superior to the belief of the ones who believe in God? At least we have submitted to what evidence there is, you have truly created a 'fanciful' thought.

Yet you have nothing to offer except your half baked theories about how or why people developed religion to rid our fear of death. No proof nor evidence of such a thing. Atheists have existed since the early times so don't think you are from a modern enlightened mindset people have always been in two groups the believers and disbelievers. The latter wanted to do what they wanted to do, but the former did what they felt they aught to do, based on signs that they testified to.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Peace yet again

Which book is better than the Qur'an and explain why?

I think you have not quite understood what the Qur'an is asking you. In the Qur'an it talks about how it is consistent with itself and had it been from anyone other than God it would have within it much discrepancy. If you agree with this criteria of being a book from Divine or a supernatural source that no man of the 7th century could have made it, let alone one who had never been taught (SAW). Then take up the challenge either present a chapter like it to have the same impact and amazement and truth and style and form and yet at the same time be superior in grammar to anything you have seen before then bring it and present it here to meet the challenge.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Since when?

The Quran never describes specifically the earth as flat...and by around 800 AD, Muslim scientists not only knew that the earth was approximately spherical in shape, but had actually calculated it's circumference to within 2-3% of modern estimates.

Who do you really want to meet off GS?
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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

  1. If you do not want ot “guide” me, why are u trying to debate with me. and why do u want others to take me “on”. If i was willing to accept something, i wouldn’t have asked u for a proof. PERIOD.
    See Petitio Principii: Begging the question - Wikipedia

  2. Of course, beleif in the unseen is required for “God”, since “God” is also unseen. And if do not bleive in what see fit, its much better for him. Coz Reasoning destroys myths and God is a myth.

  3. To put it more plainly to you:

My assumption: Living beings try to survive. Found true by observation.

Reasoning: Our charecter is determined by our genes( consistent with scientfic observations so far).

My conclusion: Fear of death is coded in our genes.

This is called logic psyah. It is not religion. If my opening proposition or reasoning is false then my conclusion fails and i don’t cry over it. This is my conclusion. This is just like:

1)The size of the car appears to be increasing
2) The car is coming towards me.

What more “proof” do you require?

  1. I do not have to offer anything. I am merely pointing out that you are not providing proofs for your exaggerated claims. I can’t quite understand everything you wrote there. what do you want me to “offer”? Please elaborate.
    Now you resort to atheist bashing. I never proclaimed myself an enlightened person like the believers who divide the world into saved people and unsaved (najes) people.
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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

[quote]
think you have not quite understood what the Qur'an is asking you. In the Qur'an it talks about how it is consistent with itself and had it been from anyone other than God it would have within it much discrepancy.
[/quote]

As for consistencies:

007.054 *
**YUSUFALI:* Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

Now...

041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

041.010 *
**YUSUFALI:* He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
SHAKIR: And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

041.012YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
SHAKIR: So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing

2+4+2=8 days.
Not 6 days.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Sura Al-Kahf (18:47): And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

Sura Taha (20:53) : Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation.

Sura Az-Zukhruf (43:10) : Who has made for you the earth like a bed, and has made for you roads therein, in order that you may find your way.

Sura Az-Zukhruf (43:38): Till, when (such a one) comes to Us, he says [to his Qarîn (Satan / devil companion)] "Would that between me and you were the distance of the two easts (or the east and west)" a worst (type of) companion (indeed)!

Sura An-Naba (78:6) :Have We not made the earth as a bed,

Sura An-Naziat (79:30) : And after that He spread the earth;

What the Muslim scientists realise or didn't realise doesn't matter. We are talking about the Quran

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

It's rather an incomprehenstion issue from your end :)

do you see difference between "earth AND heaven" being created in 6 days but "earth" alone in 2 days out of those 6 and "seven heavens" in 2 days out of those 6 and then during those 6 days, it took 4 days out of those 6 days to sustain Mountains on the earth which was created in 2 days :)

let us know if you want us to spell it out for you further more. Thanks

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

The first quote refers to the "DAY OF JUDGEMENT" not the current condition of earth..

How do "spreading of earth" or "making it as a bed" refer to it being flat? If you do not see the "surface" of the earth where you walk around as flat (not the circumference) then, you have an issue :)

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

You didn't see the last line:

*2(for earth)+ 4(for nourishment)+2(for heavens)=8 *

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

There is an english word called "Overlap" ... :)

How do you spend your weekends?
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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

I have never seen a spherical bed UkAJ :).

Who do you really want to meet off GS?
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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

nor any of such exists as far as I know...

The "surface" is made flat or "atleast" it feels flat due to gravity and the area it takes to go up or down.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

**
[QUOTE]

PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;

[/QUOTE]

Arrey, read this again. Allah took 4 days only to create mountains. The 4 doesn't include 2 days for creating the earth. The two verses appear one after another. i see no proof or need for your "overlap"**