Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

If psyah doesn't resond by tomorrow, I will post my final conclusion. Let the others decide what is right.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

There are numerous books more than several centuries older tha Quran that contain great philosophies, incomparable beauty in verse and unsurpassed wisdom. Check out any of the Vedas or the numerous interpretations. The interpretations are all man made. The VEdas ofcourse are known to have emerged from divinity.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

What the hell does it mean to promote "thinking"? If this isn't a loaded question, I don't know what is....you do mean promote "thinking" as you define it, no? Quite easy to weasel out of that one at whim, I'd say...

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Teggy - a lot more advanced books and compilations existed a looooong before Quran came about.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Are natural disasters justified? Lets leave Allah SWT out of the picture since we're discussing something you don't believe in. If its only justification you what then tell what justification is there when natural disasters occur. This is no figment of my imagination now that I am discussing.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm


Natural disasters are natural. So a supernatural being condemning someone's soul to burn for eternity is not a congruent argument. I think a lot of non believers feel the unfairness of burning more than 80% of people's souls is a big reason they don't believe in Allah so I would say shouldn't be left out of their arguements.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Natural disasters are not natural but infact not in our control. Or what is in our control is not enough to shield us against them. Yet as in our belief, things our in our control yet we choose not to steer. Its simply called ungreatfulness. How many athiest change their lifestyles to protest against all the things occuring in this world that damage us yet so strong sentiments over a simple belief that costs nothing. This is definitely a matter a priorities.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Natural disasters are by definition "natural". They are out of our control, but there are natural reasons for their occurence.

Protest against nature? How or why would an athiest or anyone else do that?

If someone doesn't believe in scripture or God, it's not a choice. It has to come to them naturally. You can't force a belief upon yourself.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Natural reasons are definite and quantifiable. Anyways I think we're getting on a tangent here.

Protest against nature ... why not? Probably its not something in our control, right?

Precisely why we should submit to Allah SWT because we cannot protest against something that is not in our control. Ending up in fire is the natural course a person seeks when not submitting to God. We avert some natural disasters or take preventive measures to save ourselves, can we not?However first we end up studying and researching the natural phenomenon. The same is with God, you have to first study about God and then understand how you save yourself from what he wants you to save yourself. Now I'm not trying to compare God with nature or impress that God is a natural phenomenon but rather characterize human behavior. Now the problem here is that while natural phenomenon is measurable emperically, mathematically and physically, God is not. God comes through intuition of everything else in this universe during the time we are alive.

And yes, we cannot force our belief on anyone. As for the athiests in this thread, if I take the Quran out of the picture, then in what should they find mistakes to prove that God does not exist. Should be take the whole universe out of the equation? Lets take the discussion to just theology barring the specifics on any religion.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm


That would make a theist's job easier and an atheist's job more difficult.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Every natural disaster can be reproduced in smaller scale models. Many universities research establishments do just that. Obviously the reprods cannot be scaled up due to expense and lack of space rather than anything else.

A number of natural disasters have been controlled and more will be controlled in future. Even things like earthquake and tsunami are controlled by reducing the impact through early warning and better evacuation training.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Read the name of the topic.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Read the question I asked. All are welcome to answer.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

The arrangement of the universe is such that if you jump off a cliff, you go splat. Call it nature, call it God's decree. One exercising their free will in such a manner that it lands one in a heap of trouble in the next life is in every way congruent to that.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Peace Seminole and ummm

I had my reasons for my recent absence ... happy reasons!

Now to address the absurdness of "Don't believe in God - why? because He punishes"

If it is true that God exists, then people receive harm in this world. It is therefore not unrealistic for us to postulate that harm shall continue to operate in that world.

Islam tells us that God does not need us, rather we need Him. So irrespective of whether we believe in Him or not we cannot be dismissive of God - based on the emotional argument of - because He punishes. It is like burying ones head in the sand. If I cannot see the danger then the danger does not exist. This mentality is a disease called denial.

Another point is that it would be an injustice to those who do worship and obey God. If no one goes to Hell then everyone must go to Heaven. That is the construct of the destinations. If someone was very bad and another was very good and both share the same fate then the injustice becomes so great towards those who did what they were told. So those people arguing for the sanctity of those evil people who created the premise for their own punishment are themselves creating a scenario where distinguishing punishment or reward becomes non-existent. If there is no punishment for the good, then accordingly there will be no distinguish from those of the good from those of the bad. That is a great injustice indeed.

A Jehovah's Witness once addressed a Muslim sister I know and asked, "You are Muslim, but why do you believe in a God that sends people to Hell?" The answer she gave was, "Do we have a choice?" ... The Witness looked at her in shock. The reason for this difference in mindset is because the former believed that God can be chosen, but the latter understood you cannot put the cart before the horse.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Peace ummm

Not only does Islam promte thinking on the level of rationale. But it goes beyond that and promotes a full learning experience. A non-Muslim named Bloom had developed a Taxonomy on the learning types.

Cognitive (Knowledge), Affective(Attitude) and Psychomotor(Skills)

Islam promotes the thinking processes by ordering the seeking of knowledge.
http://www.whyislam.org/aa/adha01/index.asp?article_id=2

The seeking of knowledge is what pertains to the cognitive processes. These are exposure, understanding, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation in increasing complexity. The exposure aspect is the prophetic instruction of us to keep company with good people. The understanding aspects are covered by how the Qur’an tries to reason with us and states, that such and such is for men of understanding

http://www.harunyahya.com/basicconceptstext_men.php

In addition to this Islam promotes all forms of learning not just the cognitive ones. It promotes good attitude and development of skills. That can be expanded on later inshaAllah.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

[quote]

Peace Seminole and ummm

I had my reasons for my recent absence ... happy reasons!

[/quote]

Glad to hear that and nice to have you back.:)

[quote]
Islam tells us that God does not need us, rather we need Him. So irrespective of whether we believe in Him or not we cannot be dismissive of God - based on the emotional argument of - because He punishes. It is like burying ones head in the sand. If I cannot see the danger then the danger does not exist. This mentality is a disease called denial.

[/quote]

Oh, nice to hear that....finally!:D There is a saying - " If you need to get your work done at any cost, you should be prepared to fall on a donkey's feet." Your arg is somewhat(not completely) similar to that.
You are saying We should worship god because we need him. Whether he is good or bad doesn't matter. A sort of satanistic argument. Please elaborate on this point. Because, if you mean, what I think you mean, end of discussion.

[quote]

Another point is that it would be an injustice to those who do worship and obey God. If no one goes to Hell then everyone must go to Heaven.

[/quote]

Huh!? You mean someone must go to heaven to differentiate between those who do the great act of praying five times a day and thoe who don't, and for that, just for that absurd reason, the non-believers should burn in hell. I don't want to say anything more. Let the other posters decide upon the asurdity and outrageousness of this statement. The rest of the paragraph is equally bad. You assume that a believer is good and non-believer is evil- which is light years away from truth.

[quote]
A Jehovah's Witness once addressed a Muslim sister I know and asked, "You are Muslim, but why do you believe in a God that sends people to Hell?" The answer she gave was, "Do we have a choice?" ... The Witness looked at her in shock. The reason for this difference in mindset is because the former believed that God can be chosen, but the latter understood you cannot put the cart before the horse.
[/quote]

Yes you do have a choice( even if the supreme Lord of this Universe was a tyrant): You can bow down before the tyrant and save your own skin, or refuse to bend your knees before injustice, fight for what you know to be right and burn in hell with your head held high.

I will respon to your second post later. I haven't got much time her, ope you don't mind.

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Knowledge is necessary for thinking, but not suffecient. My question is: does Islam allow you to question the Quran? The answer is “No.”

*005.101 *
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Ask not of things which, if they were made unto you, would trouble you; but if ye ask of them when the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made known unto you. Allah pardoneth this, for Allah is Forgiving, Clement.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.101

And if some people logically analyse the Quran and find it ridiculous, they will burn in hell

Surah 18 verse 106. That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
Source: http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=281588&page=5 (thank you :))

If you restrict a person’s freedom to question, you obviously don’t allow him to think.

BTW, I didn’t come across a single verse from Quran that allows people to think and question Quran. All I saw were verses calling non-believers “devoid of wisdom”, “have no sense”, etc…

your favourite Evergreens/Oldies (black and white or color)
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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Ummm! Actually you have it wrong. Islam encourages to ponder over the Quran and all of Allah SWT creation. The verses you have quoted are out of context and if you read the tafsir about them you would have known that they are meant for hairsplitting issues. In short, there are certain things that are mentioned in black and white as far as prohibitions are concerned and then there are gray areas. This verse is applicable to those areas where too much hairsplitting is not encouraged in trivial matters. This verse was actually revealed so that muslims may have flexibility in their lifestyle rather than cookie cutter approach in many matters.

For your reference:

004.082
YUSUFALI: Do they not consider the Qur’an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
PICKTHAL: Will they not then ponder on the Qur’an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.
SHAKIR: Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

023.068
YUSUFALI: Do they not ponder over the Word (of Allah), or has anything (new) come to them that did not come to their fathers of old?
PICKTHAL: Have they not pondered the Word, or hath that come unto them which came not unto their fathers of old?
SHAKIR: Is it then that they do not ponder over what is said, or is it that there has come to them that which did not come to their fathers of old?

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Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm


Then why does he require constant worship and so angry about people associating anything/anyone with him? The version of God that requires constant postulation and glory apparently DOES need us.

[quote]
Another point is that it would be an injustice to those who do worship and obey God. If no one goes to Hell then everyone must go to Heaven. That is the construct of the destinations. If someone was very bad and another was very good and both share the same fate then the injustice becomes so great towards those who did what they were told. So those people arguing for the sanctity of those evil people who created the premise for their own punishment are themselves creating a scenario where distinguishing punishment or reward becomes non-existent. If there is no punishment for the good, then accordingly there will be no distinguish from those of the good from those of the bad. That is a great injustice indeed.
[/quote]
If there is punishment/reward, a God that isn't petty, jealous or vindictive is not going to base his judgement on how many times we get on the ground and worship him on a daily basis. That has nothing to do with good or evil. To punish people for not bowing to you at certain times saying certain things in certain positions facing a certain direction would be a great injustice.