Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

[teggy]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

It's about obedience Semi.

We are told to follow the book and the way of worship. Simple as that. Otherwise everyone would invent a religion of their own and use their own justification for doing things which are otherwise not allowed.

If it wasn't for Sunnah and/or the Quran (for muslims) they would do things they're not supposed to. That is the very reason muslims face east towards Kaaba, pray 5 times a day, fast, etc.

As far as the wrath of God goes, it is important to remember God is more kind than your biological parents because it is God that created even them. So where there is mention of punishment, there is the emphasis on repentence and forgiveness as well. If you repent who heartedly and not repeat the things which are forbidden, you will be forgiven (God Willing). So it's not all Hell, Fire, Burn. There is much mercy as well.

The issue is, and i as a Muslim feel that too, punishment scares us the most because we are afraid of bad things yet we rejoice at the good things and sometimes, if not often take them for granted. The punishment and the wrath serves as a reminder, rightly i might add.

[Seminole]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

It's about obedience Semi.

We are told to follow the book and the way of worship. Simple as that. Otherwise everyone would invent a religion of their own and use their own justification for doing things which are otherwise not allowed.

That's putting the cart before the horse for sure. You have to believe in a book to be obedient to it. I am told all the time to do things, but I'm not obedient to it just for the hell of it. People crave order. They crave a purpose they can quantify. They crave an identity and most of all they crave an afterlife.

[quote]
If it wasn't for Sunnah and/or the Quran (for muslims) they would do things they're not supposed to. That is the very reason muslims face east towards Kaaba, pray 5 times a day, fast, etc.
[/quote]
And every one of those things in my opinion has nothing to do whatsoever to do with God or what we are "supposed to do" and only re-inforces my belief that the Quran wasn't the last message or at least not the one we have to follow with all its tradtions and ceremony to please God. They are irrelvant and unimportant. They have nothing to do with developing our spirituality or becoming a better person. He doesn't care about what direction I pray to any more than he cares what color tie I am wearing. IMO these type practices are only to give people a unique character and make them obedient. I'm not saying someone can't achieve heaven by following these traditions of Islam, but I sure don't think it is necessary.

[StirCrasy]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

@psyah

http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/bloom.html

Peace ummm

Not only does Islam promte thinking on the level of rationale. But it goes beyond that and promotes a full learning experience. A non-Muslim named Bloom had developed a Taxonomy on the learning types.

Cognitive (Knowledge), Affective(Attitude) and Psychomotor(Skills)

Islam promotes the thinking processes by ordering the seeking of knowledge.
http://www.whyislam.org/aa/adha01/index.asp?article_id=2

The seeking of knowledge is what pertains to the cognitive processes. These are exposure, understanding, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation in increasing complexity. The exposure aspect is the prophetic instruction of us to keep company with good people. The understanding aspects are covered by how the Qur’an tries to reason with us and states, that such and such is for men of understanding

http://www.harunyahya.com/basicconceptstext_men.php

In addition to this Islam promotes all forms of learning not just the cognitive ones. It promotes good attitude and development of skills. That can be expanded on later inshaAllah.

Seeking of knowledge - every kindergarten teacher promotes that too. Do they all then get to be gods? In fact their teaching system involves exposure, understanding, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation in increasing complexity…so according to islam all teachers are Gods, right?

That is exactly what Hindus have been saying for eons but you guys wouldn’t listen! Matha Pitha Guru Deyvam (Interpretation #1 Mother, Father, Teacher are Gods; #2: Mother Father Teacher God, in that order!)

[teggy]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

[quote="Seminole, post:10, topic:180337"]

That's putting the cart before the horse for sure. You have to believe in a book to be obedient to it. I am told all the time to do things, but I'm not obedient to it just for the hell of it. People crave order. They crave a purpose they can quantify. They crave an identity and most of all they crave an afterlife.

It's not craving. It's belief and faith. No more, no less. 1. Muslims believe Quran to be the word of God, and anything said within is certainly of more authority to the people who believe the book, than even their own desires. There are about 10 different topics that come out of this alone. Basically, it has to do with faith and following the Book. Strictly. Commands are meant to be followed, if you believe the commands.

And every one of those things in my opinion has nothing to do whatsoever to do with God or what we are "supposed to do" and only re-inforces my belief that the Quran wasn't the last message or at least not the one we have to follow with all its tradtions and ceremony to please God. They are irrelvant and unimportant. They have nothing to do with developing our spirituality or becoming a better person. He doesn't care about what direction I pray to any more than he cares what color tie I am wearing. IMO these type practices are only to give people a unique character and make them obedient. I'm not saying someone can't achieve heaven by following these traditions of Islam, but I sure don't think it is necessary.

**Every one of those things is extremely relevant to God and the religion because these commandments are given to Prophets, who act in accordance with revelations, hence it is the order of the highest authority (God). Certain things have a purpose, and we just do not understand them. Because we learn from our environment, and just because you haven't seen a phenomenon in the environment, you (as in general) would have the tendency to not believe it. Again, it's inter-tied with faith.

Why do you think Jews celebrate Shabbath? Why do Christians keep fasts? It is alllllllllll faith. One can make the argument that you can be healthy w/out fasting, you can be pious w/out doing Shabbath. But, it is the commandment that needs to be followed. Obedience is in order here. And i do think Shabbath is necessary, so is fasting. Because those were the traditions and commandments revealed to Moses (a.s.) for the Bani Israeel to follow.

See you may not think it's necessary but when the Prophet outlines a way of life thru his actions, and gives you a Book (Word of God), then you follow those two. They are the keys to heaven. Only way to heaven? Maybe..maybe not. I'm not the one to have a say on that, or judge anyone for their faith/action/rituals/spirituality.

Muslims feel, for them following the way of Prophet and living by Quran is the ONLY way. How are u gonna argue that? How are u gonna tell a muslim that I respect ur ways but i don't think they're necessary for u gain heaven. It's simply not credible because you're neither divine, nor in a position to make that judgement.

Individually, u can do whatever you wish. That's your decision.

**

[Seminole]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

[quote]
Muslims feel, for them following the way of Prophet and living by Quran is the ONLY way. How are u gonna argue that? How are u gonna tell a muslim that I respect ur ways but i don't think they're necessary for u gain heaven. It's simply not credible because you're neither divine, nor in a position to make that judgement.
[/quote]
Agreed. Likewise no Muslim can argure that their way is the only way. It's not credible because I don't believe the Quran and especially the traditions/culture of hadith/Sunnah to be divine. So you are right, individually we can do whatever we wish. Thank God for that.

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Alright - So those that argue against certain practices of islam, even though there may be a quranic or hadethic sanction for such evil practice,- do they go to heaven or get deep fried?

[psyah]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Glad to hear that and nice to have you back.:)

Oh, nice to hear that....finally!:D There is a saying - " If you need to get your work done at any cost, you should be prepared to fall on a donkey's feet." Your arg is somewhat(not completely) similar to that. You are saying We should worship god because we need him. Whether he is good or bad doesn't matter. A sort of satanistic argument. Please elaborate on this point. Because, if you mean, what I think you mean, end of discussion.

Huh!? You mean someone must go to heaven to differentiate between those who do the great act of praying five times a day and thoe who don't, and for that, just for that absurd reason, the non-believers should burn in hell. I don't want to say anything more. Let the other posters decide upon the asurdity and outrageousness of this statement. The rest of the paragraph is equally bad. You assume that a believer is good and non-believer is evil- which is light years away from truth.

Yes you do have a choice( even if the supreme Lord of this Universe was a tyrant): You can bow down before the tyrant and save your own skin, or refuse to bend your knees before injustice, fight for what you know to be right and burn in hell with your head held high.

I will respon to your second post later. I haven't got much time her, ope you don't mind.

Peace again ummm

No satanism is about fulfilling ones ego, but Islam is about subduing ones own ego before the laws of God. I was talking purely from a rational point of view and I was not attempting to juxtapose my ideals on to God, that would be wrong. If God is All Powerful, and God has created us for the purpose of His worship, in which there is benefit for us, if we do not undertake the act that will benefit us we will thus be undertaking in the act that harms us or we will leave ourselves prey to harm. Because we also believe that God has created other entities as tests for us and those entities are hell bent in getting us to Hell. Two such entities are our own sense of worth - our egos and the other is satan. Islam cannot be satanic because everywhere it teaches us to seek protection from Satan by trusting in God.

With regards to prayer we are only doing what is our design function. Prayer protects us from harm and has a nourishing effect on the soul. By avoiding prayer we are starving out our own souls. Goodness is the one whose conduct is better or worse than another. i.e. helping people being kind etc, Islam does not make prayer THE criterion for goodness. However, the Qur'an does say that all acts of good should be to settle as a means to please God rather than pleasing our own sense of worth. The latter in which case is merely an act done to serve us rather than a truly selfless act or one done on faith.

Arrogance or self-worth is the very thing that we must avoid in the world. A philosopher once said the more I learn the more I realise the less I know. Hopefully you can reconcile this statement in the way science is making discoveries. The more we find out about organisms the less likelihood is there for evolution to be true, because it presupposes a simple to complex or unfit to fit progression. However, it seems the complexity of the gnat or the mosquito that have been around for hundreds of millenia are enough to seal what the Qur'an says about such creatures.

And then there is intelligent design curve ball that the atheist puritans hate. No, I do not attempt to know what I cannot possibly know, but I believe in the Qur'an because it is a window of knowledge that could not have possibly been around in those days, it is a piece of grammatical mastery levelled by none and it answers the very questions that are thrown at it within its own texts. Furthermore, it challenges us to read and contemplate over it and that accusation you have made about it is indeed false.

[psyah]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Seeking of knowledge - every kindergarten teacher promotes that too. Do they all then get to be gods? In fact their teaching system involves exposure, understanding, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation in increasing complexity....so according to islam all teachers are Gods, right?

That is exactly what Hindus have been saying for eons but you guys wouldn't listen! Matha Pitha Guru Deyvam (Interpretation #1 Mother, Father, Teacher are Gods; #2: Mother Father Teacher God, in that order!)

Peace StirCrasy

Simply put the premise of Islam is to seek knowledge because it will enhance the process of faith, but the purpose many people have to seeking knowledge is so others can be subdued by those of knowledge. This purpose of knowledge is forbidden in Islam. We must learn only to help others and to increase our own quality of worship.

Seeking knowledge for wealth we are told is a meaningless exercise because when in a position of wealth we are really only using a specialised aspect of that knowledge. Islam does not teach that parents and teachers are God, rather it teaches us to respect them because they are a means to accessing knowledge.

[ummm]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Peace again ummm

No satanism is about fulfilling ones ego, but Islam is about subduing ones own ego before the laws of God. I was talking purely from a rational point of view and I was not attempting to juxtapose my ideals on to God, that would be wrong. If God is All Powerful, and God has created us for the purpose of His worship, in which there is benefit for us, if we do not undertake the act that will benefit us we will thus be undertaking in the act that harms us or we will leave ourselves prey to harm. Because we also believe that God has created other entities as tests for us and those entities are hell bent in getting us to Hell. Two such entities are our own sense of worth - our egos and the other is satan. Islam cannot be satanic because everywhere it teaches us to seek protection from Satan by trusting in God.

With regards to prayer we are only doing what is our design function. Prayer protects us from harm and has a nourishing effect on the soul. By avoiding prayer we are starving out our own souls. Goodness is the one whose conduct is better or worse than another. i.e. helping people being kind etc, Islam does not make prayer THE criterion for goodness. However, the Qur'an does say that all acts of good should be to settle as a means to please God rather than pleasing our own sense of worth. The latter in which case is merely an act done to serve us rather than a truly selfless act or one done on faith.

Arrogance or self-worth is the very thing that we must avoid in the world. A philosopher once said the more I learn the more I realise the less I know. Hopefully you can reconcile this statement in the way science is making discoveries. The more we find out about organisms the less likelihood is there for evolution to be true, because it presupposes a simple to complex or unfit to fit progression. However, it seems the complexity of the gnat or the mosquito that have been around for hundreds of millenia are enough to seal what the Qur'an says about such creatures.

And then there is intelligent design curve ball that the atheist puritans hate. No, I do not attempt to know what I cannot possibly know, but I believe in the Qur'an because it is a window of knowledge that could not have possibly been around in those days, it is a piece of grammatical mastery levelled by none and it answers the very questions that are thrown at it within its own texts. Furthermore, it challenges us to read and contemplate over it and that accusation you have made about it is indeed false.

A collection of red herrings woven together so that you can hide behind it.

[QUOTE]

Islam tells us that God does not need us, rather we need Him. So irrespective of whether we believe in Him or not we cannot be dismissive of God - based on the emotional argument of - because He punishes

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]

A Jehovah's Witness once addressed a Muslim sister I know and asked, "You are Muslim, but why do you believe in a God that sends people to Hell?" The answer she gave was, "Do we have a choice?" ... The Witness looked at her in shock. The reason for this difference in mindset is because the former believed that God can be chosen, but the latter understood you cannot put the cart before the horse.

[/QUOTE]

Are you telling us that God is beyond rules and he can not be questioned for the brutal treatment that non-believers get from him?

You are not disproving my charges against your God("tyranny") but merely justifying his tyranny. If you think Allah's tyranny is justified and he is NOT being evil, say that with a straight face and we rech the end of, what has become a rather slow and boring, discussion.

[psyah]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

A collection of red herrings woven together so that you can hide behind it.

Peace ummm

Good to see you finally begin to understand the dynamics that are involved. You can dismiss my answer as red-herrings, but I have actually directly addressed your concerns regarding the prior assertions.

Are you telling us that God is beyond rules and he can not be questioned for the brutal treatment that non-believers get from him?

You are not disproving my charges against your God("tyranny") but merely justifying his tyranny. If you think Allah's tyranny is justified and he is NOT being evil, say that with a straight face and we rech the end of, what has become a rather slow and boring, discussion.

Let's look at it this way:

God has given freedom of choice - that comes with a price we choose to disobey, or we choose for own selves harm, then God will execute that harm upon us, not because of tyrrany but because we bought it upon ourselves through our own ill-fated choices. There would be no TRUE freedom if there were no consequences of the choices we make. Even a child can understand that.

For those who die from the unjust choices of others or from natural disasters they will receive a lenient trial.

Hardship is sent as tests for those to earn reward by being patient
Bounties are also sent as tests for those to earn reward by being thankful

So the answer to your question is that God is beyond Good and Evil because these are traits for the benchmarking of humans. God does however have the Power total power to do as He chooses, that may be to Punish with Immense Wrath or To Reward with Great Bounties. It is now YOUR choice to decide which one you want more. You rebel it was your choice so don't blame God for it!!!

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Polygamy is bad
Female discrimination is bad
1st cousin. marriage and incest are bad
Claiming non-muslims will burn in hell is bad.
Suicidal jihad is bad

These are all practice of satanism whether you call it that or not. We have come across people practicing and defending many of these right here in GS

[ummm]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

God has given freedom of choice - that comes with a price we choose to disobey, or we choose for own selves harm, then God will execute that harm upon us, not because of tyrrany but because we bought it upon ourselves through our own ill-fated choices. There would be no TRUE freedom if there were no consequences of the choices we make. Even a child can understand that.

Replace “God” by “mafia” in this passage and it actually makes more sense.( Comparison b/w Islam and mafia was first done by Stircrasy so the credit of the argument goes to him). Same applies to rest of your post.

Anyway, what had Allah in store for those who never heard of Islam?

EDIT: Replace “God” by “North Korea”. Better.

I will come up with a full response on tue/wed.

[USResident]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Polygamy is bad Female discrimination is bad 1st cousin. marriage and incest are bad Claiming non-muslims will burn in hell is bad. Suicidal jihad is bad

**These are all practice of satanism **whether you call it that or not. We have come across people practicing and defending many of these right here in GS

Do you believe Satan exists?

[USResident]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Alright - So those that argue against certain practices of islam, even though there may be a quranic or hadethic sanction for such evil practice,- do they go to heaven or get deep fried?

Heaven .. tough luck for you. Would you prefer beer batter on you?

[StirCrasy]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Do you believe Satan exists?

Heaven .. tough luck for you. Would you prefer beer batter on you?

Since you're selling hellish options, haven't you answered your own question? what commission do you get?

[StirCrasy]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

@ummm

Replace “God” by “mafia” in this passage and it actually makes more sense.( Comparison b/w Islam and mafia was first done by Stircrasy so the credit of the argument goes to him). Same applies to rest of your post.

Anyway, what had Allah in store for those who never heard of Islam?

just to be sure - all I said was, the only organization I had heard of that ensured people who quit are deep fried (in beer batter according to agency resource) was the mafia. ie until I saw some threads here talk about the same treatment for islam quitters.

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Do you believe Satan exists?

Nope

[USResident]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Nope

Then by virtue of what criteria do you measure something as evil?

[teggy]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Why is it that every other person that claims to want to learn about Islam, instead of learning, turns to teaching muslims what Islam should be?

It's not as if Islam needs them. It maybe that they need Islam is why they come to post in threads pertaining to muslim topics and Islam instead.

Generally, this is how it should work:

You wanna learn about Islam, you ask a question or questions. And then you wait for muslims who might know a thing or two to post a response. If you like the answer and it satisfies you, Good. If you do not like what you read, then you either confront them with proof from their own book (Quran in this case), or you just move along.

It's pathetic to see non-muslims refuting, dictating, and nitpicking Quran, Sunnah and the ways of Islam. First of all, their credibility on Islam is as good as a sitting rock because they're not even followers of the faith. People here have been extremely patient for a very long time.

So lets drop the disguise here. And they know who they are.

It's real simple. You wanna learn about Islam, and specifically from GS of all the places, then you ask questions and wait for others to answer them. It's not for you to disect and dictate how Islam ought to be. Get it straight people.

Thank you....

[sameenji]

Re: Islam promoting thought and false accusations: Att. Ummm

Why is it that every other person that claims to want to learn about Islam, instead of learning, turns to teaching muslims what Islam should be?

It's not as if Islam needs them. Generally, this is how it should work:

You wanna learn about Islam, you ask a question or questions. And then you wait for muslims who might know a thing or two to post a response. If you like the answer and it satisfies you, Good. If you do not like what you read, then you either confront them with proof from their own book (Quran in this case), or you just move along.

It's pathetic to see non-muslims refuting, dictating, and nitpicking Quran, Sunnah and the ways of Islam. First of all, their credibility on Islam is as good as a sitting rock because they're not even followers of the faith.

So lets drop the disguise here. And they know who they are.

It's real simple. You wanna learn about Islam, and specifically from GS of all the places, then you ask questions and wait for others to answer them. It's not for you to disect and dictate how Islam ought to be. Get it straight people.

Thank you....

teggy tumse yeh umeed nahi thi.
tum to bohot naak nikle
i like it