"Islam preaches hatred," Franklin Graham

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Just wish to add something regarding 'sects'

Contrary to popular belief (spurring from Hadith reading) 'sects' are NOT tolerated in Ialam by ALLAH.

[al-Mu'minun 23:52] And lo! this your religion is one religion and I am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me.

[al-Mu'minun 23:53.11] But they (mankind) have broken their religion among them into sects, each group rejoicing in its tenets.

So any justification of division of religion into sects is against the duty to ALLAH.

These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

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some very good points raised by all of u.
the only thing that ticks me off is people taking certain parts of the Quran quite literally and promoting their agendas using those ayats. Like Yasmine said, that does nothing but take the message of the Quran totally out of context and perverts it.
That is exactly what people like Osama bin Laden have done.

éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot'é

43

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**
Contrary to popular belief (spurring from Hadith reading) 'sects' are NOT tolerated in Ialam by ALLAH.

So any justification of division of religion into sects is against the duty to ALLAH.

**
[/quote]

You got it all wrong. I have not justified the division of religion into sects. And the Hadeeth does not say that division into sects will be tolerated. If you do not accept what the Prophet (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) has said, it is your problem. The science of collecting ahadeeth is meticulous. It is not interpretation as you wish to brand it. The ahadeeth were memorised and reduced to writing at the time of the Prophet (sallallaho alaihe wasallam). When he said that there will be 72 sects and only one will be on the right track; I have no qualms in accepting the hadeeth.

44

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
** Dear Pir Sahib,

By separating State and Church in the Religion, the State became Secular and embraced democratic ideals which guaranteed equal rights to all including non-christians. And, this neutralized the power of the Church which endowed rights only to christians and only Hell to non-christians.

Similarly, by imposimg the Int'l codes of Human Rights upon Islam - the Shariati Islam would be nuetralized or rendered tooth-less because the Human Rights code would take precedence over the Sharia'h codes of Mullahs & Mowlanas.

**
[/quote]

So thus the point is not the religion in itself but how it is incorporated in government etc etc. Because the church is the same, it was just neutralized and thus taken out of politics, and in some cases 'reformed'

But had it not been 'reformed' or "neutralized' the same problem would have existed with other faiths as well, and still does in some cases e.g. Ireland's view on abortion etc.

If that is what you are saying, I am in full agreement.

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[quote]
The ahadeeth were memorised and reduced to writing at the time of the Prophet (sallallaho alaihe wasallam).
[/quote]

Disagree. History states otherwise.

46

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47

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** Disagree. History states otherwise.**
[/quote]

Which history do you belive in? Written by people several hundred years later or the one written at the time?

Do you not agree that the hadeeth were memorised by the sahaba? They were experiencing a phenomena the likes of which has never been seen and you will not agree that they were anxious to memorise and spread everything they saw or learnt? Some of them were also reducing it to writing, but that is besides the fact.

If you then look at the manner of collecting ahadeeth by Imams Bukhari and Muslim you may appreciate the effort and sincerity these scholars put in to their compilations.

Imam Bukhari used to first establish the credentials of the person who was in posession of a hadeeth, only if trustworthy would he proceed. He would perform wudhu, offer two rak'at prayer and supplicate his Lord beforing taking down the hadeeth and the chain of narrartors.

The hadeeth would then be compared to other ahadeeth on the same topic and sifted through a process to weed out any that were doubtfull. Since he was also a scholar in his own right, it enabled him to evaluate the authenticity by comparing with Qur'anic instructions and other ahadeeth. Conflicting narrations would then be reconciled or scrapped.

Consequently, the hadeeth contained in his collection is a small percentage of the total collections. Imam Bukhari collected 300,000, but chose only 7,275 as absolutely authentic.

His collection is unanimously accepted by scholars as the most authentic book after the Qur'an.

Any person who doubts his work after such dedication and sincerity is being unfair to himself only.

48

I'm aware of the 'process' Bukhari took to compile the Hadiths. I've read the preface of Sahih Bukhari which outlines what you wrote.

[quote]
Which history do you belive in? Written by people several hundred years later or the one written at the time?
[/quote]

History written BEFORE the Hadith was compiled. Don't ask me to go there.. some of the things historians have written will amount to blasphemy against the most 'prolific' Hadith narrators for people with sensitivites like yours.

If we are to believe the accounts written then here's another account written:

The prophet said:

"Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel3/12,21,39)

As I said earlier, we agree to disagree.

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 19, 2001).]

49

[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
** You're wrong: the biases of people around me changed me.
[/quote]
**
This is the unfortunate thing about secular education only. Due to lack of the most important knowledge, boys and girls get repelled from Islam because they feel they are more 'educated' than the person who has Islamic knowledge.

**
[quote]
I disagree and you can see this everywhere - who follows Islam truly now, who prays for the sake of praying and not becaus their parents asked them to?**
[/quote]

The fault here lies with the person praying for any reason other than to please God by performing the faraidh.

**
[quote]
Nobody seems to understand this religin and many many people demean and denounce it, isn't it the job of people like you to tell them otherwise? No to save face, not to jusify, but t do what Allah has asked us to do, educate the non believers and then leave it up to them to obey or disobey.**
[/quote]

The education starts with the person who wishes to be educated. The student has to attend the class and show that he/she is receptive. If the student does not attend (physically or mentally) and keeps arguing from his/her own paradigm, the person with knowledge then has no obligation.

The real Provider of knowldeg is Allah. We should thank Him for what He has endowed on us and crave for more. The real Knowledge is from the Qur'an and Sunnah and is for attaining Heaven. Each person is obliged to seek knowledge on his/her own. Only guidance may be given by those who know as to the sources. Or, they may clarify any areas of concern. But to say that the obligation is to impart education to those who are stubborn in their (mis)understanding is not fair.

50

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
I'm aware of the 'process' Bukhari took to compile the Hadiths. I've read the preface of Sahih Bukhari which outlines what you wrote.
[/quote]

And, you don't believe it.

[quote]
History written BEFORE the Hadith was compiled. Don't ask me to go there.. some of the things historians have written will amount to blasphemy against the most 'prolific' Hadith narrators for people with sensitivites like yours.
[/quote]

Can we be specific? If you give the names we can then discuss authenticities. There was also a false prophet at the time, I am sure you do not expect us to believe in people like that.

**
[quote]
If we are to believe the accounts written then here's another account written:

The prophet said:

"Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel3/12,21,39)**
[/quote]

I must say you have the most peculiar style. You deny hadeeth but tend to quote hadeeth to try and prove your point. The hadeeth you have quoted was then abrogated and people were allowed to write hadeeth when the danger of hadeeth creeping into Qur'an was overcome.

**
[quote]
As I said earlier, we agree to disagree.**
[/quote]

Then discontinue writing responses. I am only now answering your posts. I have given up on you much earlier when I said lukum deenokum walay yadeen.

51

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**.....
The prophet said:

"Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel3/12,21,39)

As I said earlier, we agree to disagree.

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 19, 2001).]**
[/quote]

Interesting hadeeth. By any chance what is the background of this hadith?

It would be interesting to learn how to perform 'salaat' directly from Quran. How do you perform 'salaat' PakistaniAbroad?

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

52

[quote]
Interesting hadeeth. By any chance what is the background of this hadith?
[/quote]

You may have to ask FactFinder or other 'Hadith Scholars'. If they believe in other Hadiths, they should believe in this one too.

[quote]
It would be interesting to learn how to perform 'salaat' directly from Quran. How do you perform 'salaat' PakistaniAbroad?
[/quote]

Let me ask you. Did you start praying while keeping a Hadith Manual on your side? When you started praying without needing Hadith, so did I.

This point of offering salat has been debunked many times. Please read my other posts where I've explained that Salat was 'farz' since Abraham, and all other prophets were supposed to 'establish' it.

Orthodox Jewish literature has similar body movements as ours for salaat.

Even in Hadith, NOWHERE does the prophet tell exactly how to offer. He only says to follow him and people write their observations. If Hadith books are so necessary and perfect in narrating salaat then why do all the sects offer salaat differently from each other??

These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

53

Sorry, I have been on the road with litle time. I will respond to your comments about the five questions tomorrow night...

Best regards!

54

[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
** You're wrong: the biases of people around me changed me. As for saying that logicuser and faceup are biased, aren't you? They are bringing valid poits against Islam regrading women, slaves, homosexuals, effectively proving that Isam is biased and male-oriented, to an uneducated audience at least. Yet you say that such arguments are useless because these people won't change their views and neither will they change Muslims' - I disagree and you can see this everywhere - who follows Islam truly now, who prays for the sake of praying and not becaus their parents asked them to? By saying that forget this topic, forget this discussion, you are ignoring something that is practically begging explanation. Nobody seems to understand this religin and many many people demean and denounce it, isn't it the job of people like you to tell them otherwise? No to save face, not to jusify, but t do what Allah has asked us to do, educate the non believers and then leave it up to them to obey or disobey.

**
[/quote]

what if i told u i know people who truly follow Islam and pray NOT because their parents told 'em to but because they love it? what if i told u that there are tons of young converts out there who truly follow the path of Islam despite the prejudice they face from their own families?
I dont think its fair when u simply assume that every Muslim out there doesnt follow Islam truly. What gives u the right to judge more than a billion Muslims out there? Do u personally know each and every one of them?
If u think the points regarding women, slaves or homosexuals are valid, then im afraid we'll have to agree to disagree here alright? Whatever Allah(swt) tells Muslims to believe, in the Quran, has a valid reason behind it. Some people dont see it..because they're not meant to.
As for people 'begging' explanations..let me tell u one thing, I've been on gupshup for more than one year and know how to distinguish between those who ask sincere questions and are willing to listen with an open mind, and those who are simply here to bash Islam and prove it wrong. I've tried reasoning with the latter kind many times before, and have learned that its a waste of my time.

"Nothing Important Happened Today"

[This message has been edited by hk (edited November 19, 2001).]

55

yep…my point exactly

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

well said

“Nothing Important Happened Today”

56

hi

57

i don't think we should get all worked up with wht anand is saying...obviously frm wht he has written we can only gather that he knows very little about the religion..but having said that, so do majority of the muslims around the world...we just need to read about the life of our prophet(pboh), & we can really appreciate wht islam really is..one of the most important aspects of islam is"haqooq-ul-ibad" which means good treatment towards your fellow human,be he a muslim or non- muslim. again we can take the example of the prophet(pboh)..he showed a lot of respect towards non-muslims & their religions.Islam is quite straight forward..& yes i agree we anand that we should be able to answer any question(provided it is put in a respectful & dignified manner & not in a way to degrade).Similarly we can put questions to other religions..."faith is only faith if its all ur holding onto" Our faith should be strong enough to face any questions ...islam is 'nt an arrogant religion & neither should we be.

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CHRISTIAN LEADER CONDEMNS ISLAM
Preacher Franklin Graham calls Islam ‘wicked, violent’

Nov. 16 — The Bush administration continues to be careful about what it says concerning the religion of Osama bin Laden. However, it turns out that one of Bush’s close friends in the American religious establishment has had some very harsh words for the Muslim faith. There is fallout from such remarks made last month by Franklin Graham.

FRANKLIN GRAHAM is one of America’s most powerful Christian leaders. He delivered the benediction at George W. Bush’s inauguration. His father, Billy, counseled a long list of presidents. But now Franklin is in trouble with political friends for comments made recently, calling the entire Islamic religion “wicked, violent and not of the same God.”

“I don’t believe this is a wonderful, peaceful religion,” said Graham. “When you read the Koran and you read the verses from the Koran, it instructs the killing of the infidel, for those that are non-Muslim.”

Asked by NBC News to clarify his statement, Graham repeated his charge that Islam, as a whole, is evil.

“It wasn’t Methodists flying into those buildings, it wasn’t Lutherans,” said Graham. “It was an attack on this country by people of the Islamic faith.”

Meanwhile, Ramadan, the holiest season of the Muslim year, has begun. Graham’s comments came as Bush, himself a deeply religious Christian, wished the world’s 1 billion Muslims, “health, prosperity and happiness during Ramadan.”

“Islam never teaches hatred, Islam never teaches terrorism,” says Imam Hassan Al-Qazwini of the Islamic Center of America.

The White House also distanced itself from Graham’s remarks Friday, saying the president “views Islam as a religion that preaches peace,” and that the terrorists do not represent what Islam teaches.
None of the other Christian leaders contacted by NBC News, including Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, would comment on Graham’s attacks.

“Obviously, Mr. Graham is tone deaf in this respect,” says Newsweek religion editor Ken Woodward. “He’s certainly not his father’s son in terms of discretion.”

A presidential friend and supporter now finds himself at odds with both the Muslim world and the message from the White House.

Source: NBC News
*

[This message has been edited by raaj-dulara (edited November 20, 2001).]

59

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** You may have to ask FactFinder or other 'Hadith Scholars'. If they believe in other Hadiths, they should believe in this one too.**

But you conveniently quoted the hadith and used it to 'prove' your notion, haah.

Let me ask you. Did you start praying while keeping a Hadith Manual on your side? When you started praying without needing Hadith, so did I.

All the "salaat manuals" were composed using different hadiths. If you learnt praying salaat from ancestors it does not mean that there is not source of "how to perform salaat".

**This point of offering salat has been debunked many times. Please read my other posts where I've explained that Salat was 'farz' since Abraham, and all other prophets were supposed to 'establish' it.

Orthodox Jewish literature has similar body movements as ours for salaat.**

I'm not opposing this fact. But it does not mean that we are following the "same salaat" as they were following.... because previous nations didn't have QURAN to read in their salaats.

Even in Hadith, NOWHERE does the prophet tell exactly how to offer. He only says to follow him and people write their observations.

I'm not sure about this one. But hadiths are classified into different categories. One is what Prophet PBUH said, second is his actions, third is what he approved or disapproved of, probably there are more than what I described here.

If Hadith books are so necessary and perfect in narrating salaat then why do all the sects offer salaat differently from each other??

All sects pray salaat almost in same fashion but with minor changes. They all have one rukoo and two sujood for a 'rakaat', don't they? I think what they recite is also same.

[/quote]

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

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