before i go..well said the rest of u
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggthumb.gif
éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot’é
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
where did you get that all??? from OBL???
why don’t you provide references to provide some credibility of your notions.
We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?
[quote]
Originally posted by hk:
***'logic'user and faceup..im not going to waste my time being reasonable with u two. *
[/quote]
In that case - why did you bother to post this whole lot of nothing!
** Obviously u both dont have a clue what u're talking about. ...
Those so-called references to violence that u've cited (as Graham did) were revealed to the Prophet(saw) at a time when Muslims were under attack from non-Muslims...it was at that time, that the Muslims were told to slay the attackers in self-defence. Unjust persecution is not to be tolerated in Islam.
Those ayats were meant for a certain time in history 1400 years ago. **
hk says that "Those ayats were meant for a certain time in history 1400 years ago"
Folks - Isn't all Quran for all eternity, has all the answer and is to be followed literally. But, hk is preaching that those ayats were for the prophet's time; what's next - the ayats on Slavery; what's next - ayats on executing apostates, homos, etc, etc.
You're right - only you have any idea what Islam is all about!
** So next time any of u think of copying and pasting lines from the Quran to suit u're purpose, know that u're only spreading ignorance. Now, stick the topic at hand! **
OKAY.
Graham is right. Quran, if taken literally, spreads hatred.
** Btw...no matter what ignorant people like Graham think Islam preaches, there is no justification for him to attack our faith. What would the justification be for people like logicuser and faceup if he'd attacked Judaism or Hinduism or any other faith in a similar fashion?**
Graham is a mirror image of our own mullahs and both preach Fundamentalist & literal meanings of their Abrahamic religions and neither, if taken literally, can be peaceful or tolerant.
What would happen if I attacked judaism or Hinduism - you ask?
Well! Most of jews do not give squat about Orthodox Judaism - they are mostly Reformed. And, Jews like Christians have separated State from Religion.
Re: Hindus - They never claim their religion to be a Divine Revelation, the absolute truth and nothing but the truth so, watch it!
** Allah gave them brains, but they say - we have no need for it - we have the quran!**
.
faceup..stop wasting my time and stick to the topic
I stand by my comments. Yes, the Quran does provide the Muslims with guidelines on how to live our lives. But anyone with half a brain knows that the parts that talk about battles that took place 1400 years ago are meant for that time..NOT today. Muslims are not being persecuted and thrown out of Makkah right now. Anyone who takes every single word of the Quran LITERALLY is ignorant. Strict, literal interpretations are never correct because you've always gota look at the whole picture.
Its easy for people like u to read a few selective lines from the Quran and proclaim them to be preaching violence as u see fit.
now if that still went over ur head....TOO BAD
éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot'é
[This message has been edited by hk (edited November 17, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by hk:
*faceup..stop wasting my time and stick to the topic
I stand by my comments. Yes, the Quran does provide the Muslims with guidelines on how to live our lives. But anyone with half a brain knows that the parts that talk about battles that took place 1400 years ago are meant for that time..NOT today. Muslims are not being persecuted and thrown out of Makkah right now. Anyone who takes every single word of the Quran LITERALLY is ignorant. Strict, literal interpretations are never correct because you've always gota look at the whole picture.
*
[/quote]
Folks- can I get a show of hands from those who agree with hk on this:
But anyone with half a brain knows that the parts that talk about battles that took place 1400 years ago are meant for that time..NOT today.
** Anyone who takes every single word of the Quran LITERALLY is ignorant. Strict, literal interpretations are never correct **
hk - So if the above part or:
"Slay the polytheists where-ever one may find them"
was timebound or restricted to a particular time, Is this your own opinion?
And, in that case:
1)what about parts that talk about women as being half of man or likening them to field and to go till 'em as ye see fit?
2)What about parts on Slavery?
3)what about parts on apostates & Homos?
4)What about not to take friends & protectors from Unbelievers?
5)What about Jizzya or poll tax imposed on polytheists?
** So, dear hk - what parts of quran is timesless (eternal) and what parts are time-bound?
And, who decides? **
cite the Surah and Ayat instead of asking general questions
btw...are those parts the only ones that interest u faceup? what about the ones that talk about love for all human beings, equality between all races, respect for the people of the book?
lets hear from some new people..im tired of listening to and sounding like a broken record.
éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot'é
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
** Yep! He's a Fundamentalist and no different than our Mullahs! Cut from the same cloth .**
[/quote]
agree 100%
so the religion then itself was not right and that needed reform, or does taking religion out of governance changes the nature of the religion itself?
And thus if Billy Grahams equally retarded child does not follow what was said in the “unreformed” church is he thus saying that christianity taught some funky stuff so we changed it and came up with christianity version 1.02. Does it change the fact of what christianity originally talked about.
which by the way reminds me, isnt the king of england still the defender of the faith
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
anyways, Frank Graham is still a jackass, just like psychotic hindu pundits or crazy mullahs of our own.
u mean the Queen fraudia
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
and i assume she’s the defender of the Church of England..not Catholics.
Btw..is Graham Catholic or what?
im used to hearing anti-jewish, anti-Muslim remarks from Southern Baptists but dont know if Graham is one.
éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot’é
[This message has been edited by hk (edited November 17, 2001).]
Someone claimed here that I was either a Christian, a Jew or a Hindu. HK thinks that neither faceup nor I have a clue about Islam. None of the above are true. Actually, I have thoroughly studied Islam for many years. In fact I had been a follower of Islam for some time. I am more than happy to bring to you direct quotes from the Quran, hadiths and known Muslim writers to make my points. I don't follow any other religion. My views about Christianity and the Bible are similar to my views about the Quran and Islam. In other words, I have no hidden agendas, such as one to preach another religion by putting Islam down. I am also the first to admit that there are valuable lesson about morality and ethics to be learnt from the Quran.
Most of the beliefs of Muslims are based upon the Islamic teachings they have received. Starting with the "azan" in the ear of a newborn, a Muslim child is indoctrinated in the teachings of the prophet. I received the same teachings. I submit to you that these teachings are extremely biased and completely incomplete. In other words, Muslims that write here about religion are simply regurgitating the same old Islamic teachings we have all heard about. Just as what the Christian preachers do in the churches and what the Jewish Rabbi's do in the temples. They keep discussing and reviewing the same fundamentals and perhaps look at them in different lights. YOU NEVER STEP BACK FAR ENOUGH TO GET A TRUE AND OBJECTIVE VIEW OF YOUR RELIGION. If Islam was truly studied by you objectively and completely as has been done by many, I know you will walk away form it. You will also realize how damaging it has been to our society's ability to progress. You have to know the entire story before you start taking the leap of faith. The new converts suffer from the same issue. They are jumping into this religion without knowing the entire truth.
I will need to write a book to support my above statements. Many such books have already been written but I know you Muslims will never go near them. Let me just ask a few questions to our Muslim brothers and sisters:
Name one modern industrialized society that doesn't have a secular government with complete separation of religion and state? What has been the evolution of this important concept in the western societies?
How many times is the word slave used in the Quran? When you study the contexts in which this word is used, what do you learn about Quran's view of slavery? What is your view of human slavery?
Quran came for all humans. Identify a single reference, say a fruit, a vegetable, a building or a person that CLEARLY shows that it is something beyond the possible knowledge of a 7th century Arab. Please don't come back with the vague references about the science in the Quran, etc. We all know about them.
Which sect of Islam is the one true sect? What do you think should be done with the followers of the other sects? Which sect of Islam were you born in?
What is your duty as a Muslim regarding the propagation of Islam? What do you think should be done with people that condemn Islam? What happens to the non-believers?
Once you have answered these simple questions, you will begin to see why some in the West think what they the think about Islam.
Logic User,
I agree with many of your points, but it appears you didn’t have your heart in the research, or else you’d have found the ‘truth’.
It’s late at night so i’ll only tackle one point raised by you. I’m sure others will chip in and explain the rest. If not, I’ll inshallah revisit and try and expound on them to the best of my abilities.
Slavery
Unfortunately, another mis-interpretation by the ‘scholars’.
Qur’an mentions dealing with ‘slaves’ by the use of the phrase “ma malakat aimanakum” .. translating into “those whom your right hand possesses”.
Now considering tha rich Arabic language, surely Allah could have chosen a simple word if he wanted to mention ‘slaves’. But he chose to use a phrase that could mean many things.
The verses of the Qur’an where there is mention of dealings with “ma malakat aimanakum” are:
4:3, 4:24, 4:25, 4:36, 16:71, 23:6, 24:31, 24:33, 24:58, 30:28, 33:50, 33:52, 33:55 and 70:30
However,
there are other places in the Qur’an where words similar to “rakaba” are used to denote ‘slaves’.
This word can be found in 2:177, 5:89, 4:92, 9:60,
Very interesting that Allah would use two different words to denote the same thing.. IF we are to believe they are the same things.
Since there were slaves in the era of the Prophet Muhammad, when the message arrived, there was a definite need to address the issue and the overwhelming message of the Qur’an is to ‘free’ them and for those who do not, to treat them equitably.
My humble understanding is that “those whom your right hand possesses” are the people in your household that are financially dependent on you. There are other figurative uses of ‘hand’ by Allah in the Qur’an which confirm that Allah is talking about financial dependency and not ‘slavery’.
[al-Maidah 5:64]The Jews even said, “GOD’s hand is tied down!” It is their hands that are tied down. They are condemned for uttering such a blasphemy. Instead, His hands are wide open, spending as He wills.
As for Islam’s expansive designs.. yes.. I agree.. Allah has instructed the believers to gear up and become an expansive power, fighting those who resist them and making treaties with those who wish to remain peaceful.
Care to elaborate how that is any different from the so called ‘secular governments’ of Colonial Britain of the past and Colonial USA of today?
For some explanations of ‘allegations’ against Islam please check out:
Good Luck
These are GOD’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
that was good pakistaniabroad but i really think that sometimes its just a waste of breath trying to argue with people who are ignorant of Islam..despite the many years of so-called studying they’ve done.
I mean, dialogue is good..but beating a dead horse over and over isn’t very constructive.
Im saying this because people like faceup and logicuser dont realize that their prejudiced rhetoric isn’t ever going to change how a Muslim feels about his/her faith.
Enough said.
im going to bed
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/sleep2.gif
éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot’é
[quote]
Originally posted by Fraudz:
** so the religion then itself was not right and that needed reform, or does taking religion out of governance changes the nature of the religion itself? **
[/quote]
Dear Pir Sahib,
By separating State and Church in the Religion, the State became Secular and embraced democratic ideals which guaranteed equal rights to all including non-christians. And, this neutralized the power of the Church which endowed rights only to christians and only Hell to non-christians.
Similarly, by imposimg the Int'l codes of Human Rights upon Islam - the Shariati Islam would be nuetralized or rendered tooth-less because the Human Rights code would take precedence over the Sharia'h codes of Mullahs & Mowlanas.
hk whats surprising is that they say it out in the open, their hatred for islam, instead of in their own private living rooms
some people justify it by saying that is what some muslims do, well i wonder if thats how mr. graham would put it? "i heard a muslim say this so i have a right to say this." sheer ignorance to speak as such and as a reverand on top of that. these people claim to know jesus (pbuh) but they havent a clue obviously when such statements and sentiments are made.
and talking about christian peoples being all about love and peace, is that what the bombs have written on their sides? "this is a message of love/peace" ? get real!
[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
.....
5. What is your duty as a Muslim regarding the propagation of Islam? What do you think should be done with people that condemn Islam? What happens to the non-believers?
........
[/quote]
My duty? Spread words of Islam. In past, spreading of religion was opposed by states (just like recently in Afghanistan preaching of Christianity was opposed but in long past preachers were killed) If you look at attacks on Mecca or Medina by non-Muslims, they were because Prophet Mohammed PBUH sent out invitations to the rulers to accept Islam..... anyway lets not go into that detail. My duty to spread Islam is use the tools available today. For example, I can use internet to talk to people about Islam, like I am doing now talking to you.
Islam does not say that we have to spread the word by fighting. If you can spread the word without fighting should be fine too. Muslims are not required to "CONVERT" non-Muslims, but to convey the message and leave it to the 'listener' to accept or reject.
[quote]
**
4. Which sect of Islam is the one true sect? What do you think should be done with the followers of the other sects? Which sect of Islam were you born in?
[/quote]
**
There is no 'true' or 'false' sect. Read Quran and Hadith to see how to implement laws of Quran and follow it. If you can't read Quran or Hadith, too bad, than follow a 'fiqh'. You are responsible for your beleifs, not beleifs of other sects. Whether other sect "really" is out of Islam will be judged by Allah SWT. Your sincere intention to follow Allah SWT's commands is what will count.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
LogicUser,
I see you are very emotional about Islam, but your approach to promote your ideas strikes me as extremely childish. I would like to know what you are trying to accomplish here. Do you think that by posting 5 questions you are going to show people the "error" of their ways and convince them to become atheists?
I suggest you concentrate your energies on writing that book, that's what we need, another book by a non-scholar bashing Islam. Or you can read the works of people like Fazlur Rahman who have tried to Reform and Modernize Islam and enlighten your self.
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
** Here you go Jose; there are many more from where it comes from:
i) Women are like field so cultivate it as ye see fit.
ii) Slay the Polytheists (infidels) wherever one may find them.
iii) Stone to Death all homosexuals & adulterers.
iv) Kill all apostates & blasphemers.
v) Amputate the limbs of thieves that steals a loaf to feed his starving family.
vi) Capture and Breed with Slaves as reward for Jihad.
**
[/quote]
Can I have the references please. These are not from the Qur'an, they are from a prejudiced concept of Islam. By the way, there are more such (mis)understandings that have either not reached you or should I expect a second list?
[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
I am also the first to admit that there are valuable lesson about morality and ethics to be learnt from the Quran.
[/quote]
After saying this I am surprised at your subsequent rhetoric. But it only goes to show that studying and understanding are separate from believing.
[qquote]1. Name one modern industrialized society that doesn't have a secular government with complete separation of religion and state? What has been the evolution of this important concept in the western societies?
[/quote]
I was listening to a very good lecture by a Afro-American who became a Muslim several years back. He made a very good point about Muslims who have migrated to the West or have been influenced by the west. He said that they are following the sunnah of the west. The sunnah of the west you have cited here is secularism and the separation of religion and state. In my earnest opinion, this concept of secularism has nothing to do with industrial progress. Even if it does, I would rather follow the dictates of Shariah and get the benefits in Heaven than in this world.
**
[quote]
2. How many times is the word slave used in the Quran? When you study the contexts in which this word is used, what do you learn about Quran's view of slavery? What is your view of human slavery?**
[/quote]
Islam brought an end to slavery, gradually. At the time of Prophet Mohammad (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) slavery was rampant in Arabia and with the Romans, to name a few. Allah has prescribed how they should be treated. So what difference does it make if they have been mentioned 100 times. That is then the number of times we have been instructed how to deal with them to be fair and just. The gradual prohibition of slaveryu came during the time of the second or third Caliph.
**
[quote]
3. Quran came for all humans. Identify a single reference, say a fruit, a vegetable, a building or a person that CLEARLY shows that it is something beyond the possible knowledge of a 7th century Arab. Please don't come back with the vague references about the science in the Quran, etc. We all know about them.**
[/quote]
I can only marvel at your failure to understand the beauty of the Qur'an when you say a thing like this. There is no depth in your statement and it is a solemn evidence that you have not understood what you have read.
**
[quote]
4. Which sect of Islam is the one true sect? What do you think should be done with the followers of the other sects? Which sect of Islam were you born in?**
[/quote]
The sect that follows the Qur'an and Sunnah is the correct sect. There is a hadeeth that there will be 72 sects. My duty is to try top do Islaah and show the people who may have deviated to come back to the right path. It is very similar to what I am trying with you. But I am not responsible for guidance as that is Allah's Will. He Guides who He Wills.
**
[quote]
5. What is your duty as a Muslim regarding the propagation of Islam? What do you think should be done with people that condemn Islam? What happens to the non-believers?**
[quote]
The answer regarding the sects applies here. You are responsible for your criticism of Islam and I am responsible to try and educate you. If Allah Wills, you will get guidance. If He does not you will stay as you are. On the Day of Judgement you will not be in a position to say that I did not try to advise you when I had the opportunity.
I hope you will sit down and think. The simple questions are very simple to answer but very difficult to understand if the ayat "summum bukmum umyun fahum la yarjeoon" has become applicable.
I haven't read all the posts but I will address an issue seen in most rebuttals in most threads especially this one.
Quoting, whether it is from the Quran or any source, does not do justice when taken out of context. In order to understand any quote, one must read at least a few pages before and after the quote. If you are quoting from the Quran, please read the entire Surah or atleast the Ayah concerning the subject. This is the only way you can get the meaning of the words. You are not doing yourself justice when u cannot get the meaning of what you are posting on this board. It only makes you an ineffective debater, no one will take you seriously.
Hate is not good for any person. I want to assure you that we Muslims also do not hate non-Muslims, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or followers of any religion or no religion. Our religion
does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Holy Quran and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad -peace be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah.
For all of you who have quoted, please pick up an English translation of the Quran and read the sections, starting where the specific topic starts till the end. If your goal is to be a well informed and well read individual, you may want to read the entire Quran. Please keep in mind that some of the meaning is lost during translations. The most popular translations of the Holy Quran in English are the ones by the following scholars: T.B. Irving, Yahiya Emerick, Abdullah Yusuf Ali, M.M. Pickthal, A.M. Daryabadi, M. Shakir, T. Hilali and M. Khan, Muhammad Asad, and Abul 'Ala Maududi. Any time you quote, you should always cite it.
*Lets try not to be ignorant, and lets try to use some of the intellect that God has bestowed upon us. *