Islam is based on 5-7 Pillars & Nothing else!

[Pristine]

faceup:

You are clearly suffering from utter confusion. I didn’t reject your 5-7 fundamentals…yet! I asked you prove them from Quran.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Tsk, tsk…Instead of giving us quranic ayat references, you are still doing a dance accusing others of diversion.

You started this thread, so FIRST prove YOUR point, and then we can discuss it. Prove your 5-7 fundamental beliefs from Quran.

I know you will fail to do so, from Quran. YOU will quote us ahadith. Then I will let you know the ahadith which prove the five pillars of Islam and the kalima.

First accept that Quran alone can not solve all your confusions, and YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW SUNNAH AND AHADITH, IN ADDITION TO QURAN.

[Pristine]

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup

Pristine & others clearly "rejected" my fundamental beliefs of Islam. They want - me & all to follow what they believe!
[/quote]

Don't remain in any such delusion! You can believe any thing you want. What do I care?

But don't expect that your "fabricated fundamentals" will be accepted on this forum without question, and without any quranic references. Dream on. You are not allowed to misguide any muslim. Either prove your point or shut up, its simple.

And prove it that I even wanted you to accept anything in Sahih Bukhari. You don't believe it so thats your problem, not mine.

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Don't Blame ...
C'est La Vie :)

[Pristine]

Originally posted by faceup:

**I am NOT interested in sunnah compiled from hearsay of people saying:
i) Oh, I remember the prophet saying this…
ii) No, No, It was this…
iii) I never hear the prohet say that at all…
iv) No, we can’t print this hadith or it will go against us…
v) let’s print this hadith, it will show the shias are…

This is what the sunnah is all about! Base your beliefs in something like this and you have " shataniyat".**

Aha, faceup, now you are opening up. You are not interested in Sunnah compiled from heresay… interesting, very interesting. You probably only rely on ahadith which were recorded on video camera, huh? I bet these are the same ahadith which say “Sunnis are deluded and insane”, right? Or probably some of your ahadith were recorded in Candid Camera, and still images. You make me laugh, man, you really do.

And let me tell you. Not even any shia thinks like you. Atleast shias believe in Sunnah. They do not ignore Sunnah. No one can. It is just you and your ignorance.

Originally available on the Shia website http://al-islam.org/real/2.htm

…we have to take note of the fact that the proper noun "Shia" (or Shiites) does not imply that its adherents oppose the Sunnah, as most people are misled into thinking when they brag and say: “We are the followers of the Sunnah,” implying that others are opponents of the Sunnah. This is something which the Shias do not accept at all; rather, the Shias are convinced that they, and only they, are the ones who uphold the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet especially since they have approached such Sunnah through its gate, namely Ali ibn Abu Talib; there is no gate to it other than his and, according to them, nobody can reach the Prophet except through him.

come back with some authentic reference, next time you post anything.

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Don’t Blame …
C’est La Vie

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 30, 2000).]

[Pristine]

Originally posted by faceup:

2) Show me where in the Quran is the Sunni sahada that you R reqd to say or prayers are nullified? I am talking about the “SUNNI SAHADA” in those words & nullification of prayers of not uttered?

Now faceup, you are clearly suffering from Alzheimer. Let me remind you of your own first post:

Originally posted by faceup:

All muslims are united by the Shahada that there is no God but Allah and Muhammed is the Final Prophet of Allah!

As far as I know, this is it. If this is the translation of your kalima, then…surprise…surprise…this is ours too!!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Good day, mate!

[faceup]

Pristine,

Am I suffering from Confusion, or is it you?
I mean, man, you posted 4 posts in rapid succession and none of them RESPOND to my questions; instead they R abusing me, calling me names.

Come out of the dark and see the light, my friend!

Could you show me, please - I implore upon you; I beseech you:
SHOW me where in these 2 pages do you or your associates ACCEPT my 7 fundamental beliefs in Islam ?

You & your associates have been SHOVING down your beliefs down my throat!

All of a sudden, now you ,make a quick U-turn, having realized the fallacy of your beliefs and they are:

5 Pillars R not in the Quran;
and,
the Sunni Shahdah has NOT been plucked right out of the quran!

I would be bloody impressed if an alim of your actually agreed to that!

[_nanga]

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**
SHOW me where in these 2 pages do you or your associates ACCEPT my 7 fundamental beliefs in Islam ?
**
[/quote]

okok calm down panic kid. to answer your question, I again ask you a SIMPLE QUESTION. answer this first or loose your turn.

where did you acquired those 7 believe?

face up there is difference between OBJECTIVE and SUBJECTIVE statements.

If I have to declare something I should have some background resources to base my account and not a lame statement with loose ends. You testimony falls in the later category.

The acceptable etiquette is that you have to support your side first before putting question to others. The reason being, it will help us to access your mental level, thus making it easier to explain you at your wavelength.

I hope you will not reply next time with blank shots.

[Desert_fox]

Face up,
Keep your shrewd comments to your self mister I have no Knoledge of Islam and dont have any idea of Quran. Quran Is Islam so why can't it be a pillar of Islam (which there are not any according to the Quran) According to Quran there are no Pillars of Quran If you find it I will agree so any proof. If Quran is Islam why aren't there any mention of Pillars of Islam in it. Please think before you write and please have refrence to it mr. face up.

[faceup]

nanga,

R you saying prayers, haj R not in the quran? R you saying that Religious Authority?Imam is not in the Quran?

You claim that there R 5 pillars, but you speak from your own Sunni belief and they R not shared by the others.

Fox
If you do not have any knowledge of islam then maybe, you should first learn about it before making wise-ass cracks.

Go play in the General or even better - Go fly a kite!

[warrior]

qur'an was narrated to us through the same people who narrated hadith

[system]

Faceup Read this!

Prayer and Charity:

Al-Baqara (The Cow)
2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

Hajj:

2:196 And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in punishment.

Fasting(Rooza):

Al-Baqara (The Cow)
2:185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

Shahada is mandatory, without that you are not required to do the things mentioned above.

Another mystery solved, you should come out of your mythological thinking now.

Bye.

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*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*

[bg]

Faceup

There is nothing Ahal e bait concept in Islam. The Islam you believe in is totally your own version.

Islam dosn't allow Idiolization of any man including Mohammad S.A.W.

Best Regards,

[faceup]

Watcher,

Do we still have our wires crossed?

I am on record as saying that Islam is based on 7 fundamental beliefs. By this I mean they are in Islam, in the quran.

What is not in the quran is a verse or commandment that says that in Islam is based on 5 Pillars only and in the order as you stated them earlier. Pls read this again.

You quoted ayas for individual fundamentals - Good. Now find an aya or verse that says that Islam is based on 5 Pillars only. Pls read this again.

While you are searching for this verse in the quran, look for another verse that says/mentions the Sunni Sahada. This is your #1 Pillar, so pls find this sahada in one verse and in the words that sunnis use.

If you remember I am on the record that all muslims believe in Sahada.

bg - aaahh! we couldn't keep you away; could we?

[system]

Faceup, I think you are one confused fella. Sorry bud, I tried to help you out. I guess, somethings are pretty hard for people like you to understand.

All, you are doing here, confusing others with your self. I am not a schalor of Quran, and nor are you. Maybe there is a verse in quran, which you and I have no knowledge of. So, before even more damage is done to the fundamentals of Islam, please stope your crusade against corrupting Islam, which was completed 1400 years ago and does NOT need any modification.

I hope moderator is acknowledging the acts of mister Faceup, and how he is deluding other with him. Thank You!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Bye.

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V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

[Shaheen]

Qalal laho Subhana hu wata a'lah kama waradahu fis surah al a'araaf:

A'aouzu Billahe Minush Shaytanir Rajeem

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

"Khuzil Afwa wa'mur bil urf-e-wa a'rid anil Jaheleen" (Surah Al A'araaf Ayah 199)

wa sorah Al Imran:

"Kuntum Khaira Ummatin Ukhrijat Linnas-e-Ta'moruna Bil Ma'aruf-e-wa tanhauna Anil Munkar-e- wa toomenuna billah"

Remember Brothers and sisters in Islam:
Our duty is just to convey the message of Allah (Wama Alaina Illal Balagh) and when the message has been delivered as it was supposed to be and you have done the "Ittmaam-e-Hujjat," and still baatil is not FacingUp the truth, you should do as said in Surah Al-Kaaferoon:

"Lakum denakum Walay yadeen"

Wama Alaina Illal Balagh!

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**Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!**

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Shaheen=An Eagle or A Flacon!
How come people come up with the idea that Shaheen is a "gal"????

[Pristine]

Originally posted by faceup:
**Pristine,

Could you show me, please - I implore upon you; I beseech you: SHOW me where in these 2 pages do you or your associates ACCEPT my 7 fundamental beliefs in Islam ?**

How can we accept them if you can not even prove them from Quran?

I have asked you a number of times to give us quranic reference for these 7 fundamentals. As soon as you do that, we will discuss them, and may accept them.

Now stop beating about the bush!

You are fighting EVERYONE in this forum, because of your own idiotic fantasies that all muslims will believe what you say. I proved to you that 75% of the muslims do not subscribe to the shi’ite version of history, so give it up. But, on second thought, you are not even a shi’a, are you? Adios!

---

Don’t Blame me…
C’est La Vie

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[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited October 01, 2000).]

[blackzero]

I have only one observation to make...

Face-up... when you say that Muhammad (SAW) said not to write his ahadith in his lifetime.. were you there to witness this or was it written afterwards.

if you do not believe ahadith to be correct.. how come you believe that?

[Pristine]

blackzero:

Excellent point. Unfortuately we are talking to a “blank wall” (a.k.a. faceup)!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

If you read all of faceup’s posts, you would think that he only believes ahadith which were recorded on video camera! Poor soul!

---

Don’t Blame me…
C’est La Vie

[faceup]

Guys,

Admit it - you've lost and go home to your bukharis! No use in resorting to colourful language to salvage your pride - of which there is none.

PRISTINE
Nobody is looking for approval from you or your clowns. Get over this delusion! There is nothing of substance in "what you follow" - it is an empty egg shell drained of its yolk of spirituality & goodness!

The lesson learned here is - what you follow is not as per Quran; rather, it is a version of Islam as explained by some chap called Al-Bukhari.

WATCHER,
You R the one that needs help! All this time you were following things (innovations) that R not in the Quran. As you found out - there is no aya in quran that says: "Islam is based on 5 Pillars only" - it is a Sunni - specific belief.
Just like you couldn't find the sunni Shahada in the quran - That too is sunni-specific!

But here you are all - shoving down your beliefs down others throat.

[This message has been edited by faceup (edited October 01, 2000).]

[Pristine]

faceup:

You are a big comedian!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/bukbuk.gif

Two pages of arguments have gone

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and you haven’t even given a single proof of your first post.

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Just to refresh your memory (all mungled up, I am sure) here is what you had said in your first post. So will you provide any quranic reference for these?

Originally posted by faceup

**Islam’s Ritual practise is based on the following 7 fundamentals:
Prayers
Fast
Zakat
Haj
Jehad
Taharah (Cleanliness: Body & Spiritual)
Walaya (Allegiance to the Ahle Bayt Imam).

(And also you said subsequently)

I am on record as saying that Islam is based on 7 fundamental beliefs. By this I mean they are in Islam, in the quran.**

Unless you give any quranic refence of what you said in your first post, what are you arguing for.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggthumb.gif

Go take a hike

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/sleep.gif

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Don’t Blame me…
C’est La Vie

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited October 01, 2000).]

[faceup]

In my statement - both opening & in Correction & apology, I accepted Fundamental beliefs of all muslims.

In the 7 Fundaments and Affirmation are confirmed your Fundamental beliefs to 5 Pillars, even though the sunni sahada (affirmation) is based on a hearsay of a thief & liar - Abu Hurraira and, nowhere in the quran will one find an aya saying that Islam is based on 5 Pillars. It is, short & simple, a creation of the sunnis or sunni-specific belief.

Now, the problem has surfaced with you guys demanding that all muslims subscribe to your 5 Pillars & the sahada - attributed to a thief & a liar.

Amongst the 7 fundamentals - the most contested pillars and rejected by the sunnis are:

Jehad
Walaya
Taharah

i)Pristine wants to know where in the quran is Jehad mandated upon muslims?

If you, guys, do not consider Jehad as a Fundamental - that is fine. There are others who do include Jehad as a fundamental. And, Jehad is both an internal & external struggle. The contemporary Jehad should be against Ignorance & poverty.

ii)Pristine is unaware of 'Religious Authority' or Imam in Quran but he is aware of this hadith from Bukhari that he quoted in the thread: Who is Ali?

There is a hadith (closest meaning)
"And those of you, who die, without taking baiyat (promise on the hands) of a Khalifa, die the death of the days of jahaliyat" (Bukhari). This hadith refers to the fact that as an Ummah, mulims must have their leader or Imam whom the whole Ummah follows.

This hadith above was quoted by Pristine and is explaining these 2 ayas of Quran also quoted to Pristine in the thread:WHO IS ALI?

[an-Nisa' 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

[bani Isra'il 17:71] One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

You see, my friends - Rejecting shia, sufi & ismaili, bori fundamentals are essential for extremist sunni Islam.

iii) Lastly, the Fundamentals of tahara which is all about Spiritual Islam - serving & pleasing Allah is rejected by sunnis because they are unaware about it [spiritual islam] in the Quran.

Bottom line - they want all to follow their innovated beliefs as outlined in the Bukhari!

Guess who is causing all the trouble in the muslim world?

It's certainly not the shias, sufi or ismailiyas or boris; its the extremist elements of Sunni Islam along with their financiers - the Wahabis.