Islam is based on 5-7 Pillars & Nothing else!

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Faceup sir, I am not accusing you, I am letting you know what you are doing. WAKE UP sir! You post some hadiths and verses from Quran which do not exist, and when asked for references about those hadiths, you cannot provide any references. If you were truthful, you would be able to tell us the source of those hadiths and verses without us asking you about it.
Its a shame that after all the forging and inventing of new hadiths and verses, you are still posting here, and administration is still letting you post.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

Read Quran with as “simple” translation as possible. Allah asks us to “follow” the prophets way(s), Allah asked us in Quran to “obey” the Prophet. You do what prophet did, you live your life like Prophet did and you live your life like his compainions did.

Creating your own ways to follow Islam, is no way near obeying the prophet.

All of the Islamic scholars have stated that Bukhaari, and Muslim books of hadith are most authentic.
Quran does not tell us how prophet lived, only hadiths tells us that.

When you deny the hadith(s) what you are doing is you are denying the prophet. That my friend is “kufr” and signs of disbelieve.

Bye.

V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

42

faceupR U OK???? Surely not.

I have answered each of your question. I have proved with the help of several ayat that following sunnah is mandatory. I have proved from shi'ite website that this is also what true shi'ites also believe in.

I have told you repeatedly that a muslim is not obligated to follow Sahih Bukhari. Only ahl-e-Sunnah-wal-jammah (the followers of Imam Hanafi, Hnble, Shafai, Maalik) follow the Sahih, and Shi'ite have their own learned scholars. None of them preach what you post. I was under the misconception that you are a shi'ite. I was wrong. You probably have your own brand of Islam, huh?

I have proved with ayat and ahadith (not Bukhari, but rather from shi'ite ahadith) that without following sunnah, you can not define any islamic law.

I only reminded you of Day of Judgement on your slanderous utterances for sahaba (Al Hurrair). Not to avoid your questions. We must always remind ourselves constantly that we will have to answer for all our deeds on the Day of Judgement, and this is something we must never forget in the first place.

Rest assure, that for all the utterances you have made in this thread, each of them has been answered. If you chose to ignore them, then its up to you.

Re: your first post. Well, all I can say that it was highly misguided in the first place and misguided from top to the end. Almost all the participants rediculed your definition of 5-7 pillars of Islam as those were the first thing on your post. I am sure if they read the rest of your post (they probably never got that far, except hkm who got stuck on women's rights), they will find your utterances to be as full of misconceptions due to gross ignorance of derivation of Islamic teachings as I found them.

But again, as we all know, unless we get the pillars right, we can not build upon a true building. So your pillars are wrong and twisted, hence all the participants, innocently tried to correct them. Without knowing that you are doing it all for one purpose, which is to waste our time.

I hope I have accompalished my mission, which is to save any true muslim who stumbles upon this thread to be misguided from your frivolous postings and misconceptions. You, Mr faceup are beyond cure (I have said it five times already) and therefore I will not try to guide you. Only Allah can guide you.

[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited September 29, 2000).]

43

To Pristine, nanga & whoever,

SUMMARY:

I' ve asked you folks to prove:

1) Where in quran is it commanded that we follow sunnah - by this it means the sunnhas/hadiths as compiled by bukhari & co?

2) I've tried to explain the fundamental beliefs of muslims and you all try to force your Fundamentals over others! NEVER go around preaching your innovations to others!

3) I asked you to show in the quran the Shahada as you utter and nullification of faith if this is not uttered?

This is actually based on a hadith as enumerated by one of the most notorious character - Abu Hurraira called a liar & thief by both Hazrats Umer & Ayesha! Pls continue to DELUDE that what you follow is "pristine"!

Finally, this thread is about the Fundamentals & Religious Rituals/Practise/belief systems of all muslims not just those who follow Islam "according to Bukhari & Co"!

If you wish to debate other matters of Islam pls feel free to open respective threads!

44

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by faceup:

**All muslims are united by the Shahada that there is no God but Allah and Muhammed is the Final Prophet of Allah!

Well! As per the Quranic teachings, there are 5 points for complete the Muslim faith (Imaan) i.e.

(1) Believe in oneness of God
(2) Believe in Angels
(3) Belive in Devine Reveleations (Holy Books)
(4) Belive in Prophets

(5) Believe in the Day of Justice

Islam's Ritual practise is based on the following 7 fundamentals:
Prayers
Fast
Zakat
Haj
Jehad
Taharah (Cleanliness: Body & Spiritual)

Walaya (Allegiance to the Ahle Bayt Imam)

NO! As per the Quranic teachings there are 5 fundamentals and not 7 (to match your word "Rituals, actually it has a much more vast ideology inside it..) i.e

(1) Declaration to believe in Allah as the only God and in Mohammad as His prophet
(2) Sala(t)
(3) Fasting
(4) Zaka(t)

(5) Huj

The discharge or observances of the following fundamentals by muslims are not rigid or unflexible:

For example:

1) Jihad is a struggle against all injustices & temptations. Jihad against poverty & ignorance should be the contempory meaning of Jehad.

Right!

2) Zakat is the obligatory 2.5%; there is no restriction in quran as to why this can't be raised so funds can be raised for Jehad against poverty & ignorance.

Right!

3) Prayers in quran does not specify any set mechanics or structure. I can't even find evidence about "5 salah" in the quran. And, those who insist that quiblah is mecca is only pushing his/her own agenda and not the stipulations of the quran.
---------------------------------------------The whole Muslim Ummah is agreed on 5 time prayers so any contradiction is this regard will be nothing but a fussy argument.

Surah "Quraish" in the 30th part does gesture to determine the Qiblah as it reads: "..Fal ya'abodoo Rabba haz al bait".."

Again there is no contradiction on this point so why to make a difference?

4) Fast - The quran talks about fasting "in the month" the quran was revealed. The quran took over 23 years to be revealed. Then, accordingly, we should fast 23 years.

Quraan clearly mention to fast in the month of Ramadan. It is matter of a month and not the total duration of 23 years

5) Haj - The quran talks about pilgrimage to Abraham's holy sites once in life. But, the best haj is a life-long pilgrimage or an inner journey - a journey of the heart that emphasizes piety, dedication & service in the way of Allah!

Both points are true. So there is no difference of opinion I believe

WHAT ARE NOT FUNDAMENTALS OF ISLAM:
1) The insubordinate & inequitable position of women & minorities are not fundamentals of Islam.

Islam believes that - All are equal before Allah and, this should be reflected, first of all, in the interpretations of Islam.

2) The punishments: flogging, cutting of hands, be-heading, stoning are barbaric pratices and certainly not fundamentals of Islam.

Take care please! Floggin, Cutting hand, and sentence to death are Quranic confinements. Denying any of these will mean to deny Allah's order.

I agree however with you about "Stonning to death" as it is not an Quranic confinement.

The emphasis should be on deterence & remedial/rehabilitation process that assists one to change his/her ways.

There are other beliefs that are not fundamental to Islam but have been made into Sharia to preserve one's position & previleges.

45

Sophia,

Instead of a long song & dance why not just STATE that Islam of the Bukhari version is the Pristin-est & Tru-est!

God - you people R deluded! -- Insane is more like it!

I cite an example that zakat can be raised to fund projects in poverty alleviation. There is NOTHING in quran to counter this; But, these people even have problem with this noble gesture. Can I ask - Do you people even pay the obligatory 2.5%?

How can you -losers, compare yourselves with those that contribute over 20% towards Zakat +Charity?

46

Faceup, the Quran says "Whoever obeys the Messanger, obeys Allah". Allah says: "No, by your Lord, they do not believe until they submit to your adjudication in all disputes between them, then they do not find themselves oppressed with your decisions and they completely submit." (4:65) Again, Allah says: "When a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messanger, it does not behove a believer, man or woman, to have choice in their matter. One who disobeys Allah and His Messanger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." (33:36) Furthermore, Allah says: "What the Messanger teaches you, take it; and what he forbids you, avoid doing it."(59:7)

You are the one who is deluded, you are denying the hadiths and sayings of prophet. What is that good in that?

"The words of the faithful, when called to God and His Apostle that He may judge between them, are only to say, 'We heard and we obey,'" 24:50, and He has said, "obey God and obey the Apostle," 4:62. But a great many of those against whom their "misery prevailed" [23:108] and those over whom "Satan has won the mastery" [58:20] - the sunan of God's Prophet are "behind their backs" [2:95, 3:184, 6:94]

Bye.

*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*

47

ok faceup: Your eternal complaint from all of us is that we avoid your question and create diversion, huh? Ok, so here it comes pbpr (point by point reply). Now shape up or shut up:

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
To Pristine, nanga & whoever,

SUMMARY:

I' ve asked you folks to prove:

1) Where in quran is it commanded that we follow sunnah - by this it means the sunnhas/hadiths as compiled by bukhari & co?
[/quote]

Quran only says to follow Quran and the Messanger of God (PBUH). This means the Sunnah. No where it says that muslims should follow Bukhari. And I have repeatedly tried to drill it in your think skull that you are not obliged to follow Sahih Bukhari. You are free to follow ahadith collected by your shi'ite scholars. You just keep on harping back to Bukhari.

However, when you disputed the mere fact that we should follow Sunnah, then I quoted lots of instances from Quran and also material from your favourite shi'ite website supporting our point that you can not be a true muslim by ignoring Sunnah.

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:

2) I've tried to explain the fundamental beliefs of muslims and you all try to force your Fundamentals over others! NEVER go around preaching your innovations to others!
[/quote]

Aha! What a thing to say, especially coming from you. You have this thread full of your preachings yet you mind when we substantiate our answers from Quran.

By the way Bukhari is not a book of fiqha or interpretation, rather it is a collection of ahadith, verbatim. For interpretation we consult the works of Imam Hanafi, Shafai or Maalik. Just like shi'ites consult Imam Jaffer. So don't remain in the misconception that Bukhari is an innovation. If you choose to ignore any ahadith contained in Bukhari, that is your problem, your prerogative and up to you. No one can force you to do otherwise. You can even choose to be a non-muslim, who can stop you? But the way you even ignore teachings by your shi'ite scholars is truly astounding!

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:

3) I asked you to show in the quran the Shahada as you utter and nullification of faith if this is not uttered?

This is actually based on a hadith as enumerated by one of the most notorious character - Abu Hurraira called a liar & thief by both Hazrats Umer & Ayesha! Pls continue to DELUDE that what you follow is "pristine"!
[/quote]

Wow! this is a masterpiece from you faceup! You, of all the people are alluding to the testimony of Hazrat Umer and Hazrat Ayesha... Kya baat hai!!! You, and all your ilk (shi'ites) can spend hours slandering Hazrat Ayesha (there are dozens of threads even in this forum where you and some other shi'ites have spent hours posting why you hate Hazrat Ayesha and Umer); and now you turn back and consider the testimony of the same people you love to hate! Shame on you!

Tell me the reference where you claim Hazrat Umar and Ayesha said any such thing about Abu Hurera. And don't turn back and give the convenient reply that "go look it up yourselves, its everywhere". Its nowhere because you made it up.

Regarding your question, where is the first kalima in the quran, or for that matter any kalima (including shahada). Mr faceup... Quran repeatedly insists on oneness of Allah and that Muhammad is the messanger of Allah. The exact wordings of the kalima were given to the ummah by the Prophet (PBUH). Since you disregard all sunnah, so its fruitless to talk to you about them, isn't it?

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:

Finally, this thread is about the Fundamentals & Religious Rituals/ Practise/ belief systems of all muslims not just those who follow Islam "according to Bukhari & Co"!

If you wish to debate other matters of Islam pls feel free to open respective threads
[/quote]

Agreed! and this is what we are discussing. Unless, you want to open threads which are for shi'ite muslims only, who will pat you on the back every time you post some frivolous slander, then all of the muslims and indeed everyone is free to come and post their thinkings. It is our duty to keep the records straight.

I and many others have provided detailed responses on Islamic beliefs/fundamentals and religious practices. However the first thing which needs debate is how do we derive this information. The fundamental difference is that we say quran and sunnah are supreme, where as you say quran only. With this fundamental difference, the debate can't continue. Referring to source of hadith i.e. Bukhari or shi'ite scholars etc is secondary and is, therefore, inconsequential.

There, I have answered all your frivolous questions. So don't go around complaining that "these sunnis don't answer the question, and just go around twisting things and creating diversions"....

By the way, Sophia Mujahid has answered the remaining frivolous points of your first post, point by point. Without saying that I agree to all her interpretations, I trust now your anxiety must have come to a rest that no one else had any problems with those points so why is Pristine having problems with them!

EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM, who has a bit of sense has now seen, how stupid your ideas were in the first place, and only belong to a mind of ignorant person.

...and Allah knows best

[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited September 29, 2000).]

48

Pristine,

You have answered NOTHING other than continously prove the extent of your delusion & hypocrisy!

Here's proof:
Can a muslim have 7 fundamental beliefs or will you insist that they must be 5 based on hearsey of bukari & co?

49

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:

Sophia,

Instead of a long song & dance why not just STATE that Islam of the Bukhari version is the Pristin-est & Tru-est!

God - you people R deluded! -- Insane is more like it!

I cite an example that zakat can be raised to fund projects in poverty alleviation. There is NOTHING in quran to counter this; But, these people even have problem with this noble gesture. Can I ask - Do you people even pay the obligatory 2.5%?

How can you -losers, compare yourselves with those that contribute over 20% towards Zakat +Charity?
[/quote]

The last I checked, Sophia had said "Right" to your point about raising money for poverty allevation etc. But you can't call it Zakat. You can call it anything else, Sadqa, Khairat, Charity, whatever. That is because zakat has a fixed rate, fixed by the Prophet (PBUH), and you can't "INNOVATE" on that, ok, mr faceup? You can't innovate on such things... Get it?

And if you go around giving 20% to zakat+charity, then hurray for you. This is not something you propagate, ok? You can donate 100%, so what? Allah has given you your wealth and yuo can chose to do whatever with it. But don't brag about it. Paying zakat is a must, and should be publicly announced, but giving charity is up to you and I can quote you a hadith which says that when you give charity from your right hand, the left hand must not know, but I won't quote it, because you will immediately jump up and say "See, this guy is again quoting Bukhari. He is deluded and insane!"

Moral of the story: Think before you brag, ok?

50

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**Pristine,

You have answered NOTHING other than continously prove the extent of your delusion & hypocrisy!

Here's proof:
Can a muslim have 7 fundamental beliefs or will you insist that they must be 5 based on hearsey of bukari & co?

**
[/quote]

Don't blame me faceup....na na... Everyone on this thread has already rediculed you, so you better tuck your tail between the legs and make a run for it. I wonder where are your other friends a11shah etc? I believe seeing the extent of your deviation, even they could not muster up the courage to support you.

As far as your "new" question (Everytime, you come up with a new question, mind you, because the previous one is answered) amd everytime you complain, they don't answer.

I asked you to provide reference for Hazrat Umer and Ayesha's alledged saying about Abu Hurera, and as expected, you ignored it completely. Speechless, I must assume!

Ok, Islamic beliefs. You can believe anything you want. You can believe 5, 7, 10 things. Its all up to you. I won't even involve any hadith, because you have a phobia to ahadith, so lets take it logically.

The title of this thread is "Islam is based on 5-7 Pillars & Nothing else!". You have been corrected that when it comes to pillars of Islam, there are only five (5) proven pillars. On this, you turned back and changed your posting to 7 fundamental beliefs/rituals, which include Jehad, Cleanliness and respect for ahle-bayat. None of this is controversial in itself. The only problem, mr faceup is that you have been unable to substantiate your own post with any refernce.

So while you may be right, don't expect us to take your word for it and make these 'fundamental Islamic Ritual Practise". Unless you substantiate your post, no one can accept them. Prove these seven from Quran or hadith, and then come to us.

But, knowing you, you will again hide behind your whining and crying. You will pose a new question, and say, that we never answer your questions.

faceup, the speed by which you are changing your questions, I am hoping you are learning everytime and, there is probably some hope that you will see the ignorance of your ways, and perhaps will study Islam the way it deserves to be studied. Go ahead, study your own favorite website al-islam.org and then come back to us with intelligent questions.

Don't worry, we won't taunt you, if you come to the right path. Be a shi'a, if you want, but read shi'a scholars before you jump your horse and come to this forum, with your brainwaves. Adios!

51

Pristine now accuses me of changing my questions? Really?

My questions are directly related to the thread!

Do, your answer, short & simple, is that you reject my Fundamental beliefs of Islam! This is what you R saying in this idiotic long LONG answer of yours!

Do I have to attempt to appease people who base their beliefs on sayings of a thief & a liar as recorded by your own hadiths? This is exactly what the sunni shahada is based on!

Now you know why I am on the record as saying - I wouldn't be caught dead in this Islam based on 'bukhari thing of yours'!

52

Faceup!! Its time for you to FACEUP up TRUTH man.

53

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**
Do I have to attempt to appease people who base their beliefs on sayings of a thief & a liar as recorded by your own hadiths? This is exactly what the sunni shahada is based on!
**
[/quote]

Faceup............Don't just start accuse pierce Sahaba of Holy Prophets (PBUH). Tell me in which hadith Hazrat Ayesha (SA) and Hazrat Umer (SA) acused Abu Harira (SA)

Also for information for my information, please please tell us which book of Haith you follow or you get your references from.

[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited September 29, 2000).]

54

faceup i am sure you must have some background resource at hand on which you are laying your 5-7 beliefs. please do share with us.

i hope you will give answer from quran and not from the teachings of your madarsa, or your egocentric upbringing or your shi’ite-imam-enforced-laws.

sophia and pristine has given you almost all the answers in the light of quran, perhaps in a better way than mine though its useless, but i will still try to find more verses to convinces you.

i hope your next reply will be based on your reference work and nothing less.

55

Faceup, time to Face-up-to-the-TRUTH in the light of Quran and Hadiths, and no more mythological imaginations of yours.

I posted this earlier for you, I hope you read it again.

Faceup, the Quran says "Whoever obeys the Messanger, obeys Allah". Allah says: "No, by your Lord, they do not believe until they submit to your adjudication in all disputes between them, then they do not find themselves oppressed with your decisions and they completely submit." (4:65) Again, Allah says: "When a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messanger, it does not behove a believer, man or woman, to have choice in their matter. One who disobeys Allah and His Messanger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." (33:36) Furthermore, Allah says: "What the Messanger teaches you, take it; and what he forbids you, avoid doing it."(59:7)
You are the one who is deluded, you are denying the hadiths and sayings of prophet. What is that good in that?

"The words of the faithful, when called to God and His Apostle that He may judge between them, are only to say, 'We heard and we obey,'" 24:50, and He has said, "obey God and obey the Apostle," 4:62. But a great many of those against whom their "misery prevailed" [23:108] and those over whom "Satan has won the mastery" [58:20] - the sunan of God's Prophet are "behind their backs" [2:95, 3:184, 6:94]

Bye!

*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*

56

Folks!

There is no use trying to convince mr faceup. He only has two points:

  1. Ahadith in Bukhari are wrong, unless they praise ahle-bayat.
  2. All sunnis are insane and deluded

Even if you quote Quran, faceup will twist the meanings to suit his purpose. The worst part is that faceup doesn’t even believe ths shia scholars, as well. Even the shi’as acknowledge that Sunnah is a source of Islamic law.

A well-known shia web site al-islam.org says:

So mr faceup should realize that if he chooses to come to pak.org and posts slander and misconceptions, he will be easily outnumbered 3 is to 1, perhaps more, bcz percentage of sunni muslims in Pakistan is as high as 80%.

However, intellectual discussions on important religious topics is always welcome, if they are accompanied with appropriate references, daleel and in the light of quran and ahadith.

Islam teaches us religious tolerance, so folks, we respect all religions and followers of all sects. But when one derelict comes in a preaches a twisted version of our religion, without any quranic proof and daleel, hoping we will all pat him on the back and say “Cheers”, he is sadly mistaken.

Ciao!

57

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**Pristine now accuses me of changing my questions? Really?

My questions are directly related to the thread!

Do, your answer, short & simple, is that you reject my Fundamental beliefs of Islam! **
[/quote]

faceup now has now been totally confused. I didn't reject his beliefs. I asked him to prove them from Quranic ayat. He did not. Because he could not. Instead he keeps on harping on sunnis and Bukhari.

Ok faceup, now prove your own statement about 7 fundamental beliefs from quran, or shut up forever on this topic. And that's a challenge!

58

Got no answers - guys! FIRST - know what you follow!

1) Show me where in the Quran does it say that there are "5 Pillars of Islam"; please, I am curious to learn the basis of all these sectarian knowledge that you espouse!

2) Show me where in the Quran is the Sunni sahada that you R reqd to say or prayers are nullified? I am talking about the "SUNNI SAHADA" in those words & nullification of prayers of not uttered?

3) Pristine - still trying to DIVERT away from the core of the thread?

These R direct questions and I want DIRECT answers from you, on the BASIS OF QURAN.

I am NOT interested in sunnah compiled from hearsay of people saying:
i) Oh, I remember the prophet saying this....
ii) No, No, It was this.......
iii) I never hear the prohet say that at all...
iv) No, we can't print this hadith or it will go against us.....
v) let's print this hadith, it will show the shias are........

This is what the sunnah is all about! Base your beliefs in something like this and you have " shataniyat".

Truth is not based on "numerical superiority"; most of muslims do not know the details or have knowledge to what they follow!

Look at the people here, on this Forum - You R educated and have access to knowledge but, do you have answers to the questions I raise, based on Quran?

59

What about the Quran.? Does that not appear in the five pillars of Islam when it should. If it was one it sure would be strong enough to support the whole Islam am I right?

60

Desert Fox

Very astute comment! Quran is Islam!

The 5 - 7 fundamentals are the belief-system of muslims belonging to "all" school of thoughts, not just sunni!

Pristine & others clearly "rejected" my fundamental beliefs of Islam. They want - me & all to follow what they believe!