7 pillars of islam ??
gimme a break.
maybe 7 for shias..
but we all know that there are only 5 pillars and they've been mentioned before..
Nomaan
If you read my post - it clearly mentions that all muslims are united in the:
sahada;
and, Ritual Practise of muslims fall in the following 7 categories:
Prayers
Fast
Zakat
Haj
Jehad
Taharah (Cleanliness: Body & Spiritual)
Walaya (Allegiance to the Ahle Bayt Imam)
If you believe in 5 then rest assured you R covered - the 5 are mentioned;
those who believe in 6 or 7 are also covered - in the true spirit of Islam.
To Zalim,
RE: Jihad
I have made some clarification on the subject. Pls visit my Clarification & Apology posted September 28, 2000 03:13 PM.
Also, pls read my note to nomaan; and, my comments in the opening post of 9/27 on the 5 fundamental rituals. If you still disagree on my comments on jehad or the other fundamentals then do write again.
I believe that there are 5 pillars of Islam
Sahada
Namaz (prayer)
Roza(Fasting)
Hajj
Zakat
The rest is the variation the different sects of Muslims. If they believe on the 7 then well and good. I still think they are Muslim because in one Hadith The Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H) said whoever say shahda he is Muslim.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited September 28, 2000).]
Insaniyat,
Nobody is looking for your approval! That's a pretty egotistical / self-serving comments!
Just tend to the fundamentals of the faith as you have been taught and keep your nose clean!
[This message has been edited by faceup (edited September 28, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**Nomaan
If you read my post - it clearly mentions that all muslims are united in the:
sahada;
and, Ritual Practise of muslims fall in the following 7 categories:
Prayers
Fast
Zakat
Haj
Jehad
Taharah (Cleanliness: Body & Spiritual)
Walaya (Allegiance to the Ahle Bayt Imam)
**
[/quote]
? rituals ? you call Prayers, Fast, Zakat,Haj rituals?
i think you need your head examined. ritual is something like having nehndi on the bride during marriage.
get your facts straight.
*If you believe in 5 then rest assured you R covered - the 5 are mentioned;
those who believe in 6 or 7 are also covered - in the true spirit of Islam.
*
oh so if i believe in 5, its sufficient but its not in the true spirit? we all know islam has 5 pillars. everything else can be important, but can't be called a pillar.
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**Nomaan
If you read my post - it clearly mentions that all muslims are united in the:
sahada;
and, Ritual Practise of muslims fall in the following 7 categories:
Prayers
Fast
Zakat
Haj
Jehad
Taharah (Cleanliness: Body & Spiritual)
Walaya (Allegiance to the Ahle Bayt Imam)
**
[/quote]
? rituals ? you call Prayers, Fast, Zakat,Haj rituals?
i think you need your head examined. ritual is something like having nehndi on the bride during marriage.
get your facts straight.
*If you believe in 5 then rest assured you R covered - the 5 are mentioned;
those who believe in 6 or 7 are also covered - in the true spirit of Islam.
*
oh so if i believe in 5, its sufficient but its not in the true spirit? we all know islam has 5 pillars. everything else can be important, but can't be called a pillar.
nomaan
As I mentioned to insaniyaat - nobody is looking for your approval.
1)Just like following sunnah is not commanded in the quran;
2) neither, are the Fundamentals or Religious rituals as per your views only are in the quran.
As mentioned to insaniyaat - pls follow the fundamentals as you have been taught and keep your nose clean.
- Doubled Up! I blame it on the system! -
[This message has been edited by faceup (edited September 28, 2000).]
**ONLY 5(FIVE) PILLARS IN ISLAM! They are:
Shahada - Kalima
Salaah - Prayer
Zakaat - Poor due
Soum - Fasting(rooza_
Hajj
Those are PILLARS of ISLAM, anything else is NOT a pillar of Islam. If you creat one, you are no way near Islam.**
Nomaan sahib, Faceup Sahib has been forging hadiths and verses from quran, I have been reading some new and old ones and found numerous posts. This was another "act" of his to delude others with him.
Faceup sir I don't mean to dismay you in anyway but, there are ONLY 5(five) pillars of Islam!!!
If any group has created more than 5, than thats innovative and Allah dislikes innovations in Islam.
And we Muslims DO NOT call Namaaz(prayer) a ritual. What tribe are you from?
*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited September 28, 2000).]
Just an additional thought, just as there are five pillars of islam (ie.shahada,salat,sawm,zakat, and hajj). There are seven basic elements of belief, and those are to believe in:
Allah swt
Angels of Allah swt
Books of Allah swt
Messengers of Allah swt
The Day of Judgement
Predestination or supremacy of Divine Will (Qadar)
Life after death
When I joined these forums awhile back, and saw some posts by GFQ, faceup, cooldude, [nanga], humble etc, I thought, wow! these guys really know something about Islam and this is a good place to learn about Islam. I must admit, I was only partially right.
I have lots of shia friends. I never had any disagreement with them, because we all believe in the Islamic fundamentals and respect the Prophet, sahaba, ahl-e-bayat and islamic scholars. There may be differences in rituals or how we pray but all four fiqhas are correct, including fiqa-e-jafaria, and hence this is no point of dispute.
However, some of the postings by shia participants in these forums have made me aware, that no... some of them have really twisted things around so much that they are probably beyond cure.
faceup, you are the biggest disappointment. In the thread 'Who is Ali (RA)' and in the current thread started by you, your innermost ignorance and misconceptions are out in full force. I am glad that almost all participants in this thread have put you and your twisted ideas to task. I will not do so. Because I believe you are beyond cure by a mere human being. Only Allah Ta'llah can give you guidance.
Not all shias are like you. Not all shias do the following:
They don't accept some ahadith, which they feel 'suit' them, and reject others as 'fabrications' because these were written 200 years after the Prophet. For example, you proudly quote the hadith regarding the importance of Ali, but conveniently ignore the ahadith warning against slander to Ayesha (RA). I posted all of those in another thread.
You conveniently ignore ahadith in Sahah-e-Sata, even though an overwhelming majority of muslims of ALL fiqaha accept them as authentic. You only believe those ahadith which relate to the importance of ahl-e-bayat.
When I told you that you can not ignore Sunnah, because Quran gives the amar and nahi (rules) and we have to follow sunnah to understand how the Prophet (SAW) actually implemented those rules. I gave the example of Salat. You responded by the single most astonishing statement I have ever had the misfortune to read from some one claiming to be a muslim. You said that 'No, the method of prayers was coming from Abraham (RA) and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) only added Surah Ftiha'.
When I told you that you have to keep the shaan-e-nazool of every ayat in mind when translating, you said you are not interested in those.
Where Quran uses the word "Imam", you conveniently interpret it to mean "your" imams, whereas I clearly demonstrated that the ayat in question is addressed to "all human beings" and not to muslims, and therefore the word Imam refers to the Prophet. You conveniently chose to ignore this in your reply.
Now you have fabricated 7 pillars of Islam, wherein you have added two, including your favorite "ahle-bayat" which is no way proven from any ayat. You will even have trouble proving it from your own selection of favourite ahadith. In a very famous hadith you have yourself replaced the word "sunnah" with "ahle-bayat". The hadith "I am leaving wit you two things which will keep you united: Quran and my Sunnah". You give an out of contect argument in favour of your "twist" saying that Prophet forbade writing of his ahadith in his life time. The hadith is correct but, again, you have ignored the context of the hadith.
I respect all the Prophets, all sahaba and all ahle-bayat. You tend to give more importance to your imam and ahle-bayat, which is your problem. I don't care.
I have only the following to say to you:
If, as you say ahadith are not to be trusted, then how do you accept all the sayings of Hazrat Ali (RA).
Shias tend to follow the interpretation of Hazrat Imam Jaffer Saddiq (RA) in the Islamic rituals. Even Imam Jaffer and all other Imams would die of shame if they know of such blasphemy which is spread by you and your ilk in the name of "Love to ahle-bayat".
You should again take shahada, read the kalma and then go to a proper scholar of Islam and study Islam, including Quran and the life of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). You should learn to give respect to sahaba and ahle-bayat and Imam. You should not keep on looking for defects in sahaba as you or your ilk can not even come to a thousandth of the piety, knowledge and love of even the most junior of sahaba. And never, ever ever confuse eminent sahaba like Hazrat Abu Bakr, Umer, Usman, and Khaled Bn Waleed (RA) with munafiqeen like Abdullah Bin Abi Kaeb. Don't quote me the quranic ayat addressed for munafiqeen, unless you know the relevance and shan-e-nazool of those ayat.
Do not believe every word you are fed by the ignorant and jahil moulvis wo whom you are exposed to in your majalis. Read the works of true Islamic scholars.
I don't feel sorry for you. I only pity you. You had the intelligence to have grasped the true islamic concepts and to live your life according to true Islamic teachings. Instead, you chose to shortchange your capabilities and have fallen in the path which only leads to ignorance. I am sure that on the Day of Judgement, all the sahaba, Imams and Ahle-bayat will be united and will follow our great messanger Prophet Muhammad (SAW), and they will themselves feel sorry for you and your ignorant moulvis who have led you to this path. You have your own life and I have my own. I refuse to spend any more of my time to try to make you see light.
I pray that Allah gives you guidance. I pray that you see the ignorance of your ways. It is difficult because you have been fed some of these concepts since a very young age and they are mighty hard to rectify unless you have guidance by Allah Ta'lla.
Despite this disappointment, I continue to be impressed by the research and knowledge of other people in this forum, including but not restricted to Cool Dude, GFQ, [nanga], humble (by whatever nick) and some others. I will continue to particpate in intelligent discussions which do not involve you and your brainy ideas and innovations to Islam.
In the end, let me pray that Allah gives guidance to all of us, and help us in our search for knowledge. Each of us has our own life, our own deeds and our own graves. May Allah allow us to concentrate and spend our times in true Islamic discussions and not frivolous sideshows enacted by ignorant people. (Ameen)
Warcher,
here u go accusing me of "creating things".
If I tell you that the "sunnah" that you follow is Islam's "BIGGEST INNOVATION" - you R going to start crying again aren't you?
Well - it is, there I said it!
To Pristine,
Do you have a point?
Weren't you supposed to provide "quranic evidence" that has commanded all to follow Bukhari's sunnah as meanings to the quran?
faceup:
I had intended not to respond to your frivolous and inane ideas. However, for the benefit of those who vsit these pages, and lest they be misguided by your twisted version of Islam, I am making an effort to answer some common questions.
… and Allah knows best.
If you are asking that is Sahih Bukhari mentioned in Quran, then it is a far stupid question than what, even I could have imagined from you. As you yourself have pointed out that Bukhari was written 200 years after the visaal of our Prophet (SAW). I can quote you from Bukhari, because that is one book which I have studied in detail. If any hadith is also corraborated by your own collection, then accept it and if you can’t corraborate then, too bad. Don’t accept.
If, however, your question is whether following the sunnah of our Prophet (SAW) is recommended anywhere in Islamic sharia. I did not go to any Sunni web-site to bring you the answer. It would have been too easy for you to redicule. Lets go to your favorite shi’a website www.al-islam.org and see what it says about following Sunnah:
Thus, following Sunnah, by whatever source you chose, is also a part of shi’a thinking. Hence you, Mr faceup, must wakeup and rethink your own mungled ideas.
The rest of this message is for those who are genuinly interested in the idea of pillars of Islam and Islamic school of thought. I will also take the question of importance of Sunnah, having already proved that following Sunnah is a clear belief in both Sunni and Shi’ite schools of thought. You may gather your source of Sunnah from whichever method you like, from Sahih Bukhari and other saha-e-sata books or from the shi’ite collection. Following of Sunnah is a obligatory part of Islam.
And, why should we follow Sunnah, why not just follow Quran? Thats a common question. The answer, illustrated with ayat and ahadith with references is as follows:
The question may appear strange and somewhat surprising to committed, practising Muslims. How can something which is so obviously one of the bases of Islaam become a matter for discussion and debate? But since the question has been asked, I will present, with the help of Allaah, the principles and bases of the importance of the Sunnah, the obligation to follow it and the ruling concerning those who reject it. By so doing, we will also refute the doubters and the misguided group who call themselves “Qur’aaniyyeen” (though Qur’aan has nothing to do with them!) In sha Allaah this discussion will be of benefit to everyone who wants to understand the truth of the matter.
Proof of the importance of the Sunnah
(1) The Qur’aan speaks of the importance of the Sunnah, for example:
(a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:80]
Allaah described obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him) as being a part of obedience to Him. Then He made a connection between obedience to Him and obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him): “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]
(b) Allaah warns us not to go against the Prophet (peace be upon him), and states that whoever disobeys him will be doomed to eternal Hell. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [al-Nur 24:63]
(c) Allaah has made obedience to His Prophet a religious duty; resisting or opposing it is a sign of hypocrisy: “”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65]
(d) Allaah commands His slaves to respond to Him and His Messenger: “O you who believe! Answer Allaah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life . . .” [al-Anfaal 8:24]
(e) Allaah also commands His slaves to refer all disputes to him: “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]
(2) The Sunnah itself indicates the importance of the Sunnah. For example:
(a) Al-Tirmidhi reported from Abu Raafi’ and others that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “I do not want to see any one of you reclining on his couch and, when he hears of my instructions or prohibitions, saying ‘I don’t accept it; we didn’t find any such thing in the Book of Allaah.’” Abu ‘Eesaa said: This is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. (See Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Shaakir edition, no. 2663).
Al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, reported that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Would any of you think, reclining on his couch, that Allaah would only describe what is forbidden in the Qur’aan? I tell you, by Allaah, that I have warned and commanded and prohibited things that are as important as what is in the Qur’aan, if not more so.” (Reported by Abu Dawud, Kitaab al-Khiraj wa’l-imaarah wa’l-fay’).
(b) Abu Dawud also reported from al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, that “the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) led us in prayer one day, then he turned to us and exhorted us strongly . . . (he said), ‘Pay attention to my sunnah (way) and the way of the Rightly-guided Khaleefahs after me, adhere to it and hold fast to it.’” (Saheeh Abi Dawud, Kitaab al-Sunnah).
(3) The scholars’ consensus (ijmaa’) affirming the importance of the Sunnah.
Al-Shaafi’i, may Allaah have mercy on him, said: “I do not know of anyone among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een who narrated a report from the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) without accepting it, adhering to it and affirming that this was sunnah. Those who came after the Taabi’een, and those whom we met did likewise: they all accepted the reports and took them to be sunnah, praising those who followed them and criticizing those who went against them. Whoever deviated from this path would be regarded by us as having deviated from the way of the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the scholars who followed them, and would be considered as one of the ignorant.
(4) Common sense indicates the importance of the Sunnah.
The fact that the Prophet (peace be upon him) is the Messenger of Allaah indicates that we must believe everything he said and obey every command he gave. It goes without saying that he has told us things and given instructions in addition to what is in the Qur’aan. It is futile to make a distinction between the Sunnah and the Qur’aan when it comes to adhering to it and responding to it. It is obligatory to believe in what he has told us, and to obey his instructions.
The ruling concerning those who deny the importance of the Sunnah is that they are kaafirs, because they deny and reject a well-known and undeniable part of the religion.
In the Shi’ite website al-islam.org, the importance of Sunnah is explained as follows:
Mr faceup. I will never ask you to follow Sahih Bukhari, unless you yourself chose to do so. Even if you are a shia, you must atleast follow the shia scholars and not the mucked up speakers you hear in your majalis.
Islam is complete way of Life
When you say “Islam is based on 5-7 Pillars & Nothing else!”, it is a gross mistatement:
The pillars of Islam, mentioned above, as a hadith and the basic beliefs of Islam, narrated by Girl from Quryesh, cover the basics. In addition, Islam provides us detailed instructions on how to live our lives. And these instructions do not become outdated and will not restrict you to 7th century (another grave misconception of yours). For instance, Islam provides us instructions on
- How to interact with our parents
- How to interact with our peers, our neighbours, our relatives, non-believers, our friends and our enemies.
- What is allowed for us to eat and what is not
- How to marry and how to conduct our relationship with our spouses
- How to bring up our children
- How to conduct business and commerce
…and many others. In short it provides us with a complete code on how to live our lives and prepare for the Day of the Qiyamat.
We may chose to follow as much of it as we can, and hope and pray that Allah excuses our transgressions and faults because He knows we are weak, prone to temptation and He is Almighty, Rehman and Raheem, and can excuse all faults.
Jazak Allah Khair…
[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited September 29, 2000).]
Pristine,
What is it with you people - calling names as precursor to any response!
1)My good man: Allah commands us to follow the Prophet or assist him in delivering the message of Allah or the Quran!
2) Allah has not asked that we follow his/prophet's(saw) "ways" as enumerated in the Al-Bukhari - this is a major innovation of Islam!
3) If Allah wished us to follow the sunnah then what is the purpose of the quran? A decorating piece!
4) Even the Shahada that you claim is a "Requisite" of Islam is actually based on Sunnah or Hadith of a notorious Al Hurraira - a thief & a liar!
[This message has been edited by faceup (edited September 29, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**
2) Allah has not asked that we follow his/prophet's(saw) "ways" as enumerated in the Al-Bukhari - this is a major innovation of Islam!
3) If Allah wished us to follow the sunnah then what is the purpose of the quran? A decorating piece!
4) Even the Shahada that you claim is a "Requisite" of Islam is actually based on Sunnah or Hadith of a notorious Al Hurraira - a thief & a liar!
[This message has been edited by faceup (edited September 29, 2000).]**
[/quote]
faceup.....wakeup!!!
Who are you? What are your beliefs? Are you a muslim? Are you a shia? If your answer is 'yes' to the last two questions, then don't you even rely on YOUR OWN SHI'ITE SCHOLARS ????????
I have quoted you from al-islam.org which you yourself recommended for shi'ite version of Islam. Now, instead of going through the material which I posted from your website, you are again coming back with the same questions, answered again and again.
Answer to your question 2: Do not follow Sahih Bukhari. Why should you? You are not a Sunni. You are a shia. You have your own scholars of shi'ite school of thought. Why don't you just follow them, atleast.
Answer to your question 3: Your misconception. Read again, all the proof I have collected from Quran for you in my answer above.
Your statement no 4: You can use whatever words you wish. I will only say one thing. I hope you have lots of good deeds to offset all the blashphamy and slander you propagate constantly. Allah Ta'alla will decide on the Day of Judgetment, who is a thief and who is a liar. I hope you, atleast, believe in Day of Judgement, because, like it or not, it will come, and you, mr Faceup, are accumulating a lot for that day by the way you say things about sahaba. Like them or not, keep your mouth shut as the truth will be revealed on the day of Qiyamat.
Pristine,
Following Sunnah, as enumerated by Bukhari, is MAJOR INNOVATION OF ISLAM?
1)Tell me does Bukhari's hadith/sunnah cover all of the quran? No, it doesn't! It misses many surahs; and, many of his hadiths are gross degradations of Islam and his Prophet?
2) The Prophet clearly commanded that his "ways" not be written! You do agree that there is one hadith amongst the many hadiths that clearly forbids the writings of his sunnah! The Command of the prophet(SAW) and Allah is to follow Quran! FOLLOW QURAN!
3) Tell you what - you show me where in the quran does it say: the Shahada, as you utter it, is a Pillar of Islam? It is a hadith corroborated by one of Islam's most notorious figure!
Finally, you R free to follow Bukhari's Islam if you choose or, even DELUDE that what you follow is the true interpretation. BUT never GO AROUND spreading your INNOVATIONS to others and expect all to line up and follow your innovations!
faceup:
Probably you have trouble reading what I have written already. I have said it atleat four times already, and I am saying it for the fifth and last time. Do not follow Sahih Bukhari, if you don’t want to. Sahih Bukhari is not the only answer to all the questions about Islam. It is only a collection of “SOME” ahadith, and not all ahadith.
All I am saying is that if you are a shi’a, you should atleast follow shi’a scholars, who also emphasize the importance of “Sunnah”. I have given you evidences from your recommended shi’ite website www.al-islam.org in my earlier post alongwith complete URL, so you can also confirm the posts I have copied from there. Now, if you don’t even trust your own shi’ite scholars, then I believe you are beyond cure.
Some of the parts of your first post on this thread “fasting for 23 years” and “no direction for qiblah” are classic cases of someone who tries to ignore sunnah and ends up with lots of confusions in their minds. As you try to justify all islamic commands from Quran, therefore you will fail and end up confused. You don’t have knowledge. I suggest you go to a true scholar, even a Shia scholar if thats what you care about and get guidance on how to study Islam. If you want to study anonymously, then go to websites like al-islam.org or islam-qa.com and find out more.
PRISTINE
What you R doing now is what people like you do all the time when they have no answers: THEY create DIVERSION! They start reminding others about the Judgement Day. Say - remind yourselves about the Judgement day!
We R discussing the fundamental beliefs of Islam and YOU try to impose your beliefs, not from the quran but from Sunnah as compiled by Bukhari & Co.
Now, you try to TWIST & SLANDER my comments on the opening post about Fast and Qiblah! Nobody had any problems to-date on my comments. All of a sudden - now, you do!
That is OK & quite understandable! Your whole belief system is based on SLANDERING others. You live in this DELUSION that what you follow is Allah's deen; actually, it is a deen of Bukhari & Co. And, frankly - I wouldn't be caught dead in it!
SALAAM !
Maybe, you all will write against my comments...
The "Islam" is actually the system / the way in which we (human beings) are supposed to live their lives. The ones who follow this system are known as "Muslims".
Frankly writing, there might be only a few true Muslims in this world.
Following the Islamic system is very easy, and it surely leads us to success in this world and in the world hereafter.
Because we all know about the fact that "where there is a will, there is a way".
Thankyou,
Yours Sincerely,
ZEESHAN_PAKISTANI
faceup that’s your opinion or precisely your shi’ite beliefs. i really doubt if you believe even in quran other than your hand picked books of ahadiths, which only curses sahabas.
that’s the reason i presume for your continuously negation of quranic references. pristine has given appropriate verses, which enforce muslims to follow mohammet.sa. it seems that you are also in a habit of distorting the verses according to your imagination, desires and beliefs. like the concept of imamat you integrated in the quran.
faceup quran is not a book to be read superficially or a decoration piece to be kept on shelves. the deeper you read the more treasures you can collect. mohammet.sa the person on whom this book is revealed. in the same book its written follow allah and its rasool, what does that mean, how can one follow him?
sunnah is the application of quranic orders and the ahadiths is the elaboration of its message. that’s why those ahadiths which conflicts with the quran are not considered valid.
now tell me where in quran do you find that incidence of gadir-khum? where you find in quran to follow ali.ra? where in quran you find that umar.ra prevented mohammed.sa to something to write? where in quran you find that mohammet.sa performed muttah? are those from your selfwritten books or quranic verses?
well said pristine