Islam and Marital Rape

[muqawwee123]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@psyah

The same ahadith also do not infer that if she had a valid reason to refuse her husband’s advances that she will still be held accountable. It merely says that if a wife refuses - that is to infer - when there is no reason to refuse, then she is sinning and why would she be sinning? It is because her refusal has breached the contract of marriage - which is the license for sexual consent. If however people then say - this license is subject to the “choice” of the woman - then that is not fairness. It should be subject to the “needs” of both parties not the choice of either party. The caveat being that she is not fit for sex at any point in time in which case her husband should not or would not be asking her for it in the first place.

Now, thats a balanced approach, especially the bold part. But the controversy is created because of scholars, who even misuse ‘Qawwamah’ verse to suppress the ladies.

I know as @TLK said that these scholars have ruined the religion for everyone, by either conveying message properly or emphasizing rights of only one gender. But again, I don’t think that a normal person is in position to separate what is the actual message and what is being conveyed by the scholars.

[TLK]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@muqawwee123

I know as @TLK said that these scholars have ruined the religion for everyone, by either conveying message properly or emphasizing rights of only one gender. But again, I don’t think that a normal person is in position to separate what is the actual message and what is being conveyed by the scholars.

These fanatics single minded religious gurus are in every religion. Just recently, Indian government forced a policy that would allow women to enter temples, as in some regions, women were considered impure to enter temples. In USA, Mormons don’t believe in medicine and even let a baby die than to take her to the doctor. But the child protection agencies will put you in jail if that happens

It’s government’s responsibility to enforce laws that protect human rights violation, and consider martial rape as a crime. And such laws must became the one and only law of the land. After that, it doesn’t matter what these idiots preach because practicing that preaching world be illegal

[ReadMe]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@psyah

Peace

1. That hadith is grammatically not all encompassing - it does not say “any wife whomsoever” who refuses the bed …
2. The angels would not be able to curse “a woman” if she refused and her husband then forced her to go to bed with him, because if he did so then the act would be happening. However, this then means there is implicit evidence in the hadith to say that if she refuses “he cannot force himself upon her” - rather he can only approach her until she allows him, because the angels could only curse “such a woman” if her refusal was absolute and prevented the husband of his need.
   **
3. The psychological programming of making her feel weary of being cursed by angels is the intent here. It is for encouraging her to train herself to be readily available for him. **
4. Hadith are available that encourage men to bring women into the mood before they engage with them and there are hadith that require men to be social with their women after the act - (Generally this is hard for the men, but desirable by the women).
5. The high street molvis who have twisted this aspect of religion is sad.

Answer: From the very same hadith there is evidence that forced sex of one’s wife is not allowed. If it was allowed then the hadith itself would be meaningless because there could never be a situation when the wife’s refusal would result in husband’s depriving in order for the curses to happen, because her refusal or acceptance would be token gesture he would get his way in either case.

Coming from a scholar like you I cringe..

[ajazali]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@muqawwee123

Now, thats a balanced approach, especially the bold part. But the controversy is created because of scholars, who even misuse ‘Qawwamah’ verse to suppress the ladies.

I know as @TLK said that these scholars have ruined the religion for everyone, by either conveying message properly or emphasizing rights of only one gender. But again, I don’t think that a normal person is in position to separate what is the actual message and what is being conveyed by the scholars.

I go to mosques of sunni/deoband/wahabis. Never heard a molvi on this topic. It has more to do with with sub-continent culture where women is considered paon ki jooti.
Yes, molivis do not tell us the rights of women in Islam nor do they tell riba is haram.

[Iconoclast]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

So where are all the aunties who had their articles in twist over this subject?

[Monk]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@psyah

If those ahadith then continue to say … “and if they (the wive’s) don’t, their men must or should or can do it with them anyway” - then there may be an issue..

Its strange, to see religious people end up teaching non religious people how to reason properly. Yet non religious people maintain that they are non religious because they think and are smart.
What an interesting place this world is..

PS Just a general idea not talking about muqawee.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@Monk

Its strange, to see religious people end up teaching non religious people how to reason properly. Yet non religious people maintain that they are non religious because they think and are smart.
What an interesting place this world is..

PS Just a general idea not talking about muqawee.

I don’t think that there is an absolute tendency among any group for not letting others explain their point of view. Many non-religious people try to know perspective of other side and same is true for religious lot as well.

I expect this from psyah, but unfortunately, I don’t find such approach followed by the scholars which we saw among the masses.

[psyah]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@ReadMe

Coming from a scholar like you I cringe..

You are right, perhaps I could have worded it better.

I should have said “To make it clear to her that she should not to set unreasonable coercive and unnecessary conditions when it comes to her husband’s needs”

[mahool]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

There is a saying of Prophet (pbuh)… start with kissing that turn on wife… if she can not turn on… you can not proceed…

kiss is a first test in sexual act.. if it shows positive behavior… do the act… else wait for another time …

Food for thoughts… Probably inspired by your thread.
Here’s What You Need To Know About Marital Rape In Pakistan

[chochoco22]

Islam and Marital Rape

@Mostar95

There are no rights for women in Islam. The man will get 72 hoors in Jannah but what the woman will get?

When I first heard that , I asked my mum that, in afterlife, are we all gonna become men (because there is no reward for women . ) and my mum said " maybe , I don’t know , now shut your mouth " !!![emoji120][emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]
I used to think that I will become a man after this life [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23].
But not anymore [emoji12][emoji12]

[chochoco22]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

As far as martial rape is concerned , I don’t believe it’s allowed because islam religion is about peace and love, not about marital rape.

Allah is the most merciful , why would he allow such things to happen to his mankind ???

Don’t people have common sense ???
I am shocked[emoji46]
I don’t understand why such evils who spread wrong messages are not in jail yet !!! , why ??? [emoji36][emoji36][emoji36][emoji36][emoji36]

[Theorist]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@psyah

If those ahadith then continue to say … “and if they (the wive’s) don’t, their men must or should or can do it with them anyway” - then there may be an issue.

These hadith are there because the women can, do and did refuse and their men didn’t get their needs fulfilled, if their men took what they needed anyway then the whole advice is meaningless. That is to say - a wife should consent, but if she doesn’t the man cannot overrule that consent. Rather it encourages her to consent as much as possible - it will save her husband from sin - not the sin of going to other women - but save him from the sin of losing his temper on her and save him from raping her. If however he feels he can handle himself without it then he should not be compelling his wife anyway - the reason why these hadith came was because the men were “not getting their fix”.

The same ahadith also do not infer that if she had a valid reason to refuse her husband’s advances that she will still be held accountable. It merely says that if a wife refuses - that is to infer - when there is no reason to refuse, then she is sinning and why would she be sinning? It is because her refusal has breached the contract of marriage - which is the license for sexual consent. If however people then say - this license is subject to the “choice” of the woman - then that is not fairness. It should be subject to the “needs” of both parties not the choice of either party. The caveat being that she is not fit for sex at any point in time in which case her husband should not or would not be asking her for it in the first place.

That would be unfair to men if they could only do one, but noooo, they had access to many so yeah why would they complain? Oh yeah, they probably wanted their pick for the night even if they had slave girls or other wives waiting on them. So damn unfair! Tsk tsk. No matter how much you try to justify this, there is no justification. HorNY men clearly had access to excess of women so obviously there was no concept of rape back then. I am not just speaking of Muslims here, the old world worked that way and Islam didn’t bring about any changes or awareness in regards to rape.

[Monk]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@chochoco22

When I first heard that , I asked my mum that, in afterlife, are we all gonna become men (because there is no reward for women . ) and my mum said " maybe , I don’t know , now shut your mouth " !!![emoji120][emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]
I used to think that I will become a man after this life [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23].
But not anymore [emoji12][emoji12]

do you have urge, to have 72 men around you messing up your make up and stuff ?

[chochoco22]

Islam and Marital Rape

@Monk

do you have urge, to have 72 men around you messing up your make up and stuff ?

If Allah gives me 72 men happily , then yes I have no issue … That’s will fun . [emoji12][emoji12][emoji12][emoji12]
Why ??? do u have any issue ??? [emoji58][emoji58][emoji58][emoji58][emoji58][emoji58][emoji58][emoji58][emoji58][emoji58][emoji58]

[Monk]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

I bet you are not married yet.

BTW take it as compliment, womens’ wish list is as diverse as they are.
Men only want women.
So its easy to tell simple being(men) “you get beautiful eyed companions”
As for some things reward is with God, womens’ case is same.

BTW number 72 is not from quran, nor an authentic hadees.

[IqbalAli]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@Monk

So its easy to tell simple being(men) “you get beautiful eyed companions”

Depends on how we condition our youth. If we condition them to be simple minds, which we do, then all they will want when they grow up are 72 houris. If we condition them to not be simple minds, they will see through the banality of wanting 72 houris and start questioning and scrutinizing the promises of eternal jannat.

Obviously we would not want such a thing so we keep on conditioning them to be simple minds so they don’t dare question the sexist teachings found within our religion.

No matter how much muslim women cover up, we muslim men are conditioned to be so simple minded that we will still keep on ogling and view them as a piece of meat. If you haven’t seen this occur in Pakistan, you are being completely dishonest.

[IqbalAli]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

This is a sexist saying. If we were to compile all sexist hadees, we could probably fill a whole book. And if we were to compile the mental gymnastics performed to turn those clear cut sexist hadees into pro-feminism statements, we could fill a whole book series.

How is this hadees perceived and implemented among muslims? Rhetorical question, we all know how prevalent sexism is in the muslim world. But let’s pretend it has nothing to do with hadees like this.

[IqbalAli]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@Mostar95

There are no rights for women in Islam. The man will get 72 hoors in Jannah but what the woman will get?

Mostar bhai, you are absolutely correct. We keep on teaching our youth lies, instead of being truthful to them so they can build better nations than we have.

Arab women before and after Islam: Opening the door of pre-Islamic Arabian history - Arab Humanists العرب الإنسانويون

[Monk]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@IqbalAli

Depends on how we condition our youth. If we condition them to be simple minds, which we do, then all they will want when they grow up are 72 houris. If we condition them to not be simple minds, they will see through the banality of wanting 72 houris and start questioning and scrutinizing the promises of eternal jannat.

Obviously we would not want such a thing so we keep on conditioning them to be simple minds so they don’t dare question the sexist teachings found within our religion.

No matter how much muslim women cover up, we muslim men are conditioned to be so simple minded that we will still keep on ogling and view them as a piece of meat. If you haven’t seen this occur in Pakistan, you are being completely dishonest.

Find me a human male youth.. of any natation.. who like any more then girls…
IF you cant .. then stop waisting my time.

[IqbalAli]

Re: Islam and Marital Rape

@Monk

Find me a human male youth.. of any natation.. who like any more then girls…
IF you cant .. then stop waisting my time.

Could write a long reply explaining how perilous teaching our youth this sexist nonsense is, but waste of time it is indeed to talk sense to you religionists.