Exactly, nor will wife die if she have sex while thinking she is not in mode. Also if there are some genuine reasons like medical one then i dont think a good husband will persist.
By medical reason, do you mean menstrual period or will you include some psychological matters as well?
Why should someone indulge in activity he / she does not like to have. We allow people not to eat, when they are not hungry. Then why force if someone does not feel to have sex?
If I ask you few question. If Islam allows a woman to deny sex when she is not in mood. Simple yes or no.
If yes, how it is supported from scripture or hadees?
If not, why not?
How about needs of woman? Can she demand sex at any time without getting labeled as 'whore'? Are there any verses / hadees where angels are asked to curse a husband for not fulfilling wife's demand?
If you're spouse doesn't want to have sex with you at all what other options due you have. Muslims hold off on having sex until they get married. The promise of sexual intimacy is a big selling point for marriage. Wouldn't be too nice if you had to take care of yourself(all the time) even after you get married.
As its mentioned in ahadith both can play with each other's parts before sex. If wife let husband start playing, most probably he will not have to force her.
Those Muslims who hold off before marriage do not challenge Allah's ruling.
As its mentioned in ahadith both can play with each other's parts before sex. If wife let husband start playing, most probably he will not have to force her.
Those Muslims who hold off before marriage do not challenge Allah's ruling.
I'm pretty sure that's not how bed death works. Usually, one of the spouse just stops wanting to have sex and no amount of touching or playing can fix that. This is when the people involved talk and figure out if they can come up with a compromise that works for both parties or they(should) end the marriage.`
And low libido can happen to either party so sex isn't withheld by the wife in all cases of this sort. Assuming a woman can't rape a a man that might be irrelevant. Okay, I know it can happen but I don't think it's the same unless of course the woman gets pregnant as a result or gives you a STI. Being forced into fatherhood or being given a disease is no joke. Other than that if a guy told me he got forced into sex by a girl I'd laugh at him then ask for the girls digits. Guys can always get raped by other guys but that can't happen inside an Islamic marriage.
Now, this is not true. Islam did provided rights to women, but later they were confiscated due to various reasons including cultural practices of male dominated societies, inappropriate interpretations of scriptures again by males who dominates religion.
Islam not only provided women right to inheritance, but also provided right to divorce, which is not present in many of other religions even today.
The problem with accepting concepts like 'marital rape' is they are alien to our cultures and have been adapted in west just recently. But again, its our male dominated clergy which promotes right of men to have sex (whenever they need it) by support of hadees like angel cursing the lady denying sex to husband. They will not talk about same right of women, because they consider it indecent on woman's part. There might be some material from ahadees, etc which would support woman's right, but we are unaware of it due to clergy hiding (read not disclosing it). This all lead to comments like Islam is sexist religion.
The Hadees itself is a clear message that husband is not allowed to forced sex on his wife.
I can understand your point, but this is not the general perception. Even many fatwas on the subject (available on net) say that once signing nikah contract, a woman can't deny right to her husband any way. The kind of ahadees quoted for this contain some analogies (even on the back of camel / horse) which indicate that women don't have any say / consent and they have to do it whether they like it or not.
We all claim Islam to be religion of nature. Then why we don't acknowledge that sometimes women don't want to indulge in the act (like men) due to some reasons. Why can't it be acknowledged that if a woman is not in mood (general term), she can be spared without invoking curse from angels.
I can understand your point, but this is not the general perception. Even many fatwas on the subject (available on net) say that once signing nikah contract, a woman can't deny right to her husband any way. The kind of ahadees quoted for this contain some analogies (even on the back of camel / horse) which indicate that women don't have any say / consent and they have to do it whether they like it or not.
We all claim Islam to be religion of nature. Then why we don't acknowledge that sometimes women don't want to indulge in the act (like men) due to some reasons. Why can't it be acknowledged that if a woman is not in mood (general term), she can be spared without invoking curse from angels.
The general perception is not true. In fact to take my point further, the hadees actually says that angels will curse her (one version says that Allah will remain unhappy) till her husband is angry. That means that just refusal of sex is not going to invite angels' curse. It's only if husband gets angry by that refusal. So it means that if one goes to his wife, and wife says that honey I am really not in mood, and hubby understands and backs off from his desire, then no angel cursing is going to happen.
Also, as you said, there may not be a Hadees about angels cursing husband for refusal, but just like you hinted, the hadees is true where Prophet allowed a woman to take divorce because hubby was impotent and unable to perform sex.
So yes, unable to participate in sex on constant basis can be a basis for divorce in Islam
The general perception is not true. In fact to take my point further, the hadees actually says that angels will curse her (one version says that Allah will remain unhappy) till her husband is angry. That means that just refusal of sex is not going to invite angels' curse. It's only if husband gets angry by that refusal. So it means that if one goes to his wife, and wife says that honey I am really not in mood, and hubby understands and backs off from his desire, then no angel cursing is going to happen.
Also, as you said, there may not be a Hadees about angels cursing husband for refusal, but just like you hinted, the hadees is true where Prophet allowed a woman to take divorce because hubby was impotent and unable to perform sex.
So yes, unable to participate in sex on constant basis can be a basis for divorce in Islam
Thats the subtle way to deal with the question, but I don't think that people are guided like this. Go through material from religious scholars on the matter (including so called fatwa) and you will find kinky analogies to prove absolute right (by hook or crook) and kind of attitude (how dare she!) coming out of such scholars.
To be honest, Umera Ahmed tried to convey the message more properly in one of her drama than these scholars. The drama was about domestic violence and in one scene there was a debate between daughter in law, MIL and FIL (who came to DIL to forget the bad behavior of their son on the context that Islam asks ladies to be submissive). DIL said, 'Islam consider both husband and wife clothing to each other. How come it supports tearing of ones clothing'. This analogy can be used for forced sex which is a kind of violence by all means.
In our society, we have heard these so called scholars saying that even in case of a rape, women should not complain. These scholars have ruined the religion for everyone. So let's not talk about fatwas.
islam say to men, pleasure the woman for the time it take to pass 40 camels in-front of a tent. before seeking his own
satisfaction.
So this and forceful love making could not co exist.
find me a woman who wish to surrounded be 72 "excited" men.
BTW 72 hoor is not in quran.. I think its not a verifiable hadees.
No not at all but she would not even tolerate a single hoor what to speak of 72! So there are no rights for woman in Islam. Even JJ says never let your wife learn driving a car!
This idiot would like her wife to be seen by only a lady doctor who comes out every day for work.
Can you elaborate these technical terms and how does this relate to topic under discussion. Any hadees where angels curse husband not fulfilling wife's wishes?
Do you need to have a hadith which states that men will also be cursed by the angels? Will you only be satisfied if you come across a hadith with exactly that wording? They say that aqalmand k liye ishara hi kafi hota hai. And I am not trying to insult you...I am not mocking you. If you do a search online, you will find that the Prophet SAWS told the men to not approach their wives for sex in the way 'animals' do, but to approach with sweet words and and affection. So aqalmand banda will understand from this admonishment alone that to "rape" or "coerce/force" your wife falls under the 'animal' category. Sometimes it's not necessary to have everything so explicitly spelled out. If you even look at the much broader hadith where the Prophet SAWS states that the "best of you is the one who is best to his wife." If your wife is not happy with you.....if she does not feel safe with you....if she does not feel respected by you...then you're not being the best. If a woman can go to hell for being unjust to a cat....to an animal....then imagine the saza that awaits the man who is repeatedly abusive to wife.
You can wait and wait for the day when you come across that ONE hadith allotting the same exact punishment for men as it does for women. Or you can also also form a conclusion based on numerous other hadith emphasizing the importance of mercy and gentleness. The same Prophet SAWS who has forbidden slapping, who has forbidden depriving your body of sleep and food, who has emphasized respect of one's own body and the body of another person.......do you really think that a man who rapes his wife will go unquestioned by Allah?
Why are we so consumed by the angels cursing women....when we don't even worry about the two angels (kiramun katibeen) recording our deeds each day?
Once Rasool SAWS was addressing a group of people when a blind man came and called out to him. The prophet SAWS made the mistake of ignoring him....but it was without malice. Allah did not approve of the Prophet SAWS's response even though the blind man could not see it. What can we learn from this example? We learn that physical contact and words to door ki baat hai.......Allah also notices our silent but hurtful body language....even if you're a messenger. And from this example, we can also learn about showing humility when we are corrected.
There was a woman whose husband divorced her and she sought justice from the Prophet SAWS who told her that nothing can be done and that she is divorced. But Allah ruled in favor of the woman and not in favor of her verbally/emotionally abusive husband. And her husband was assigned a punishment. So, sexual abuse to door ki baat hai....husbands are also taken to account for emotional/verbal abuse. So Islam is not a religion that only favors men.
We can demand and insist that it is unfair that women don't have a hadith where men are cursed by angels for marital rape......or you can look at the bigger picture. You can prove a point using many, many ahadith. Is aik hadith k peechay....people are acting as though hadithon ki kami hai for women. There isn't.
Do you need to have a hadith which states that men will also be cursed by the angels? Will you only be satisfied if you come across a hadith with exactly that wording? They say that aqalmand k liye ishara hi kafi hota hai. And I am not trying to insult you...I am not mocking you. If you do a search online, you will find that the Prophet SAWS told the men to not approach their wives for sex in the way 'animals' do, but to approach with sweet words and and affection. So aqalmand banda will understand from this admonishment alone that to "rape" or "coerce/force" your wife falls under the 'animal' category. Sometimes it's not necessary to have everything so explicitly spelled out. If you even look at the much broader hadith where the Prophet SAWS states that the "best of you is the one who is best to his wife." If your wife is not happy with you.....if she does not feel safe with you....if she does not feel respected by you...then you're not being the best. If a woman can go to hell for being unjust to a cat....to an animal....then imagine the saza that awaits the man who is repeatedly abusive to wife.
You can wait and wait for the day when you come across that ONE hadith allotting the same exact punishment for men as it does for women. Or you can also also form a conclusion based on numerous other hadith emphasizing the importance of mercy and gentleness. The same Prophet SAWS who has forbidden slapping, who has forbidden depriving your body of sleep and food, who has emphasized respect of one's own body and the body of another person.......do you really think that a man who rapes his wife will go unquestioned by Allah?
I'm not looking for hadees where angles curse man, but repeated quotation of that hadees for angles cursing woman means that our clergy either don't know the merciful character of the prophet or they knowingly hide such ahadees containing message of mercy which affect their unbridled wishes to control a woman like slave.
Rest assured, I touched upon this topic after reasonable research online and offline. What you have referred 'don't act like animals' is also part of the fatwa, I posted in this thread. I could easily have avoided to post such link, if I did not want to present picture from both the sides. Through this search / research, one can find some very explicit material in favour of men.
I would be happier if soft image of Islam and Prophet is promoted even through some za'eef ahadees (not fake ahadees).
As far as your last sentence is concerned, my reply is 'God will punish a rapist', but now bring me some statement from a Muslim scholar where they acknowledge that there is any such concept as 'rape of wife'.
^How can our clergy not know about the mercy of the Prophet SAWS? That's like being in a forest and saying that you don't see any trees or any leaves. There are numerous examples of his mercy in not just ahadith but in a study of his sunnah and seerah. So, I would say that either the scholars are ignoring the examples or maybe they tried explaining what the hadith meant.
Angels cursing the wife does not mean that the husband can get sex using force. A husband cannot use the logic that farishtay jab laanat bhejay gain to is ka matlab hai k main zabardasti bhi kar sakta hoon. So forming that conclusion is unjust. A scholar who says that a husband had the right to force himself on his wife because even the angels are cursing her......I have not heard any scholar make that argument. If such a reaction were not considered a transgression, it would be openly encouraged. My understanding is that cursing of angels does not equal go ahead and rape your wife. This hadith has nothing to do with marital rape. My understanding is that it's a strong admonishment to women to try their best to meet their husbands' needs. If she is frequently refusing sex without valid reason...leading him to feel rejected....and possibly leading him to seek sexual gratification outside of marriage because can't /won't get a second wife....(zina/adultery)...it can have far-reaching and devastating consequences. Needless to say, marriage is the most fundamental institution of society and we're living in times where marriages break for reasons that are much more trivial in comparison to marital rape and it has an impact on children and families and society at large. Sometimes we turn religion into a competition or battle between men and women instead of trying to understand that perhaps the intent or purpose of a hadith is to create some fear/ehsas in maintaining a marriage and compromising with your spouse.
Rape of any kind is animal-like behavior....and to be likened/compared to an animal is not a small thing...it's shameful enough. Does Islam have the concept of a sadist? Or does it have the concept of a "psychopath"....? It may not have these concepts....but we still know that actions such as bullying/torture/and any form of oppression is wrong.
Scholars should be respected for their dedication to knowledge...but they will also be held accountable for the misuse of knowledge. Maybe my response will sound naive and it might not satisfy you.....but in the end it's the Prophet SAW's overall conduct and lifestyle that carry more weight....as opposed to targeting just one hadith.
1) That hadith is grammatically not all encompassing - it does not say "any wife whomsoever" who refuses the bed ...
2) The angels would not be able to curse "a woman" if she refused and her husband then forced her to go to bed with him, because if he did so then the act would be happening. However, this then means there is implicit evidence in the hadith to say that if she refuses "he cannot force himself upon her" - rather he can only approach her until she allows him, because the angels could only curse "such a woman" if her refusal was absolute and prevented the husband of his need.
3) The psychological programming of making her feel weary of being cursed by angels is the intent here. It is for encouraging her to train herself to be readily available for him.
4) Hadith are available that encourage men to bring women into the mood before they engage with them and there are hadith that require men to be social with their women after the act - (Generally this is hard for the men, but desirable by the women).
5) The high street molvis who have twisted this aspect of religion is sad.
Answer: From the very same hadith there is evidence that forced sex of one's wife is not allowed. If it was allowed then the hadith itself would be meaningless because there could never be a situation when the wife's refusal would result in husband's depriving in order for the curses to happen, because her refusal or acceptance would be token gesture he would get his way in either case.
How about ahadees which say woman can't deny / should fulfill demand, even they are on back of a horse / camel?
If those ahadith then continue to say ... "and if they (the wive's) don't, their men must or should or can do it with them anyway" - then there may be an issue.
These hadith are there because the women can, do and did refuse and their men didn't get their needs fulfilled, if their men took what they needed anyway then the whole advice is meaningless. That is to say - a wife should consent, but if she doesn't the man cannot overrule that consent. Rather it encourages her to consent as much as possible - it will save her husband from sin - not the sin of going to other women - but save him from the sin of losing his temper on her and save him from raping her. If however he feels he can handle himself without it then he should not be compelling his wife anyway - the reason why these hadith came was because the men were "not getting their fix".
The same ahadith also do not infer that if she had a valid reason to refuse her husband's advances that she will still be held accountable. It merely says that if a wife refuses - that is to infer - when there is no reason to refuse, then she is sinning and why would she be sinning? It is because her refusal has breached the contract of marriage - which is the license for sexual consent. If however people then say - this license is subject to the "choice" of the woman - then that is not fairness. It should be subject to the "needs" of both parties not the choice of either party. The caveat being that she is not fit for sex at any point in time in which case her husband should not or would not be asking her for it in the first place.
The institution of marriage is of utmost important to Islam. Quran talked very little about the mechanics of the pillars of Islam, but when it comes to marriage; the requirements, eligibility, restrictions, divorce, death of spouse and such, Quran has chapters after chapters dedicated to it.
Now why is marriage important? It's to eliminate the desire of behayai, fahashi, adultery and stuff. If the institution that had been promoted and emphasized to Muslims stopped serving it's very purpose, then it's a matter of great concern in Islam, hence the hadees of such nature.