Re: Islam and marital rape...
And in reference to my statement about your use of terminology, and what equates rape. The punishment for the crime reflects a societies view of the gravity of that crime. The lesser the punishment, the less the crime. That means that you do not view marital rape to be on equal grounds with any other sexual violation.
How utterly horrid.
Finally someone who makes sense to me. I appreciate your replies. I rarely run into people who can talk sense and I find you are one of them. However if someone convinces me then I am not shy to admit it.
The way you described things makes me want to change my opinion and call it rape though I still cling on to the fact that it is an abuse that varies from spouse to spouse and may not be so severe with all of them.
Sometimes a spouse may just talk their way into engaging into it even though the other is not in the mood, I would not go around calling that rape. I think spouses are supposed to entice each other as well. If you realise where I am coming from maybe you will understand my point of view however in the case where you brutally engage in it, I don't recall that I have denied it as being condoneable. However you cannot classify every forced situation between spouses as rape. The amount and kind of force used is subjective.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Sometimes a spouse may just talk their way into engaging into it even though the other is not in the mood, I would not go around calling that rape.
USR, this is not rape obviously... you are respecting your spouse as a human-being by not forcing this on him/her (yes the woman is a human being and may want to have "sex" while the man doesn't) and it will definitely not incite fear on either side... as such, both husband and wife should also know when to back off. Marriage must have the element of mutual respect; I do not think this is in debate. Hopefully you don't either.
RAPE has a different purpose and the purpose is to brutally force the victim into something, (including but not limited to sex,) whether it is your wife, or some random lady.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
For all those who have problems reading or did not bother to read through the whole thread:
Here are my points:
1 - Some people want to call it marital rape and I choose to call it spousal abuse.
2 - Some people pointed out that calling it abuse eclipses the gravity of it however calling it rape exxagerates the concept of marriage associated between two spouses.
3 - At no point have I said it can be condoned.
4 - The punishments for both should not be the same.
5 - In Islam the rapist and adulterer are both punishable by the same approach. The topic of this thread was Islam and Marital rape not Marital rape and the UN or USA, so lets stick to the confines of religion here.
6 - Normally I don't think a woman would think about marrying her rapist whereas if the husband had forced sex upon her it may not alienate her necessarily like it would in the case of a rapist because the bond there is more than just that, they are a couple.
7 - Most of the men who may force their wives into undesirable sex may not even ever think about doing the same to a woman they are not married to. A common rapist has no regard for his relationship with the victim.
8 - Such behavior of a husband must be dealt differently than that of a rapist.
9 - The same husband may be willingly invited to have sex by the wife who at times might be forcing his way. Would a woman willingly invite her rapist later on.
10 - The bond between husband and wife is not that of strangers where such execesses are treated as crimes straight away.
11 - Use your god given brain before you start saying it should be punishable the same as a rapist, if a husband forced sex of his wife once should she go and have him stoned to death and live the rest of her life as a widow and with orphaned children. If an unmarried or even married woman gets raped by another it has violated her privacy also (which is no secret for her husband) or she may not even get married because of that and shunned by her society (these are all realities). If a husband did that she can talk to people in confidence and try to rectify the husbands behavior and if it doesn't work then get a Khul instead of enduring the abuse in my opinion.
12 - The sensitivities involved in marriage are different from a normal rape situation.
13 - Please use your brains instead of balls before replying now.
14 - In all honesty I can't imagine a husband would be doing to his wife what a rapist does with a victim woman. The comparison is unfair. At least I haven't seen that happen in muslims maybe it happens in western countries where even in marriage individualities are concerned and they still live like independent people. Please do not be comparing the brutality, attitude and un-concern involved in rape to a husband forcing sex with his wife, its apples to oranges here. And if it is then by all means persecute the guy.
Honey, you really HAVE NO CLUE DO YOU?
What else can one say, except sigh!
Given your attitudes, you should be glad that you are not born a woman in some societies including the one you belong to.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Honey, you really HAVE NO CLUE DO YOU?
What else can one say, except sigh!
Given your attitudes, you should be glad that you are not born a woman in some societies including the one you belong to.
Well sugarplum, you should get in the habit of reading all that you missed before replying. If you had read my post #81 you would know.
There is nothing wrong with my attitude however yours might be biased or one sided. For me I wanted to see it from both perspectives and got to it and when I was convinced, I complied with it. I hope you would have the guts to do that when it comes.
As for having no clue, you can only judge by what you can see. If you can see what a spouse has done to the other spouse visibly then their is not much left to judge at all, you will not be needing clues as you are thinking. However you still cannot judge a situation by mere blame and start calling it rape. One thing I wanted to point out is that flinging such an accusation especially between spouses should be fully realized with its consequences so it is no small matter. At what point you really want to call it rape if it is coming from your husband. When it comes from a stranger you do not need to think twice.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Part of this requires one understand that there are situations in reality in which a husband FORCES his wife to have sex when she doesn't want to (take your clothes off now, bi***), and that this force is not at all similar to persuading a spouse to have sex (i.e. "oh comon!!! Let's do it!). The former is usually accompanied by violence and physical abuse and emotional abuse. The latter is just normal personal interactions with a spouse.
Again, its hard to conceive of it, but there are situations where a woman doesn't even want to be physical with her husband. A newly wed in an arranged marriage situation is just one example that comes to mind. I sure would be uncomfortable getting physical on the first night I meet the guy, and if he coerced me into anything ... how can that be "his right"?
Forcing someone to have sex with you - this is not something normal people do.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
i think marital rape in islam would be where a husband is forcing wife to do something un natural.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Most likely most muslim women will never call their husband's unwanted sexual demands as rape. A more serious and wide spread problem is when the wife puts up with sex with her husband but derives no pleasure from it. Husband simply doesn't know or care how to satisfy his wife.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Narissa...
Thing is i think ijtihad has been done on the issue and four witnesses is a prerequisite...we cant reform a ruling just cos we dont like it...
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Finally someone who makes sense to me. I appreciate your replies. I rarely run into people who can talk sense and I find you are one of them. However if someone convinces me then I am not shy to admit it.
The way you described things makes me want to change my opinion and call it rape though I still cling on to the fact that it is an abuse that varies from spouse to spouse and may not be so severe with all of them.
Sometimes a spouse may just talk their way into engaging into it even though the other is not in the mood, I would not go around calling that rape. I think spouses are supposed to entice each other as well. If you realise where I am coming from maybe you will understand my point of view however in the case where you brutally engage in it, I don't recall that I have denied it as being condoneable. However you cannot classify every forced situation between spouses as rape. The amount and kind of force used is subjective.
Yaar aik to tum ko danday mar mar samjhana parta hai. :D
Re: Islam and marital rape...
i think marital rape in islam would be where a husband is forcing wife to do something un natural.
Keep on coming, eloborate a bit more.
Most likely most muslim women will never call their husband's unwanted sexual demands as rape. A more serious and wide spread problem is when the wife puts up with sex with her husband but derives no pleasure from it. Husband simply doesn't know or care how to satisfy his wife.
And the reason for that I believe is they do not want to think of themselves going against the hadees as mention earlier where they HAVE to have sex even if asked while on top of the camel.
Narissa...
Thing is i think ijtihad has been done on the issue and four witnesses is a prerequisite...we cant reform a ruling just cos we dont like it...
And who were the people for that ijtihad, was any women part of the ijtihad was any survey carried out before the ruling. My guess! No.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
i cant elaborate because that's just what i think, you know, no sources or anything.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
i cant elaborate because that's just what i think, you know, no sources or anything.
What do you consider unnatural I have no clue, thats why I asked for explanation.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Yaar aik to tum ko danday mar mar samjhana parta hai. :D
Bus yaar .... dheet to the last bone
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Narissa...
Thing is i think ijtihad has been done on the issue and four witnesses is a prerequisite...we cant reform a ruling just cos we dont like it...
That doesnt preclude change. Ijtihad was never meant to be a static process.
Why cant rulings be subject to reform if they are antiquated or unjust considering new developments in technology? No one is talking about reforming the Quran. We're talking about reforming rape laws set down in the Sharia.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
That doesnt preclude change. Ijtihad was never meant to be a static process.
Why cant rulings be subject to reform if they are antiquated or unjust considering new developments in technology? No one is talking about reforming the Quran. We're talking about reforming rape laws set down in the Sharia.
You can only abandon them unfortunately... if you reform shariah laws now, you will have to re-reform them in the future, for which you again have to refer back to the Quran. So what is the underlying factor?
Re: Islam and marital rape...
You can only abandon them unfortunately... if you reform shariah laws now, you will have to re-reform them in the future, for which you again have to refer back to the Quran. So what is the underlying factor?
Who says that such reformulations (not reform) have not been done in the past?
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Who says that such reformulations (not reform) have not been done in the past?
And yet here we are, talkiing about reforming them AGAIN... it's a vicious cycle :)
Re: Islam and marital rape...
First thing, Marriage is a sacred relationship in our religion. Second, when you get married you are esentially giving sexual rights to each other. So this marital rape is something that is more of a westernized concept where even though you are married you (in many cases) maintain your individuality to a great extent and this marital rape has become an issue.
Still it has room for discussion in our religion I would say. Simply put it would mean when either partner is forcing the their spouse into sexual intercourse without their being comfortable to it. There are many factors involved here i.e. medical conditions, just not in the mood, aversion, foul play etc.
Your argument about capital punishing is totally invalid because it has to do with having intercourse with whom you do not have the right to do so. Spouses have the right to have intercourse with each other so this term of rape is not even in the context.
Very good answer.
1-No spouse has to use force to obtain sexual gratification and if any conflict arises, a third party including court can be and should be consulted.
2-The root cause of one partner must be looked at and remedied appropriately.
3-"Sex by force" (its not rape ) is prohibited under any circumstances. The idea of 'raping' a spouse is ridiculous.
4- There could be some psychologic factors as well and in extreme situation and I repeat,... in extreme situations divorce can be obtained.
5- I suspect a forceful sex in marriage is less common than unwillingness during sex in marriage. The partner may just be quiet about being unwilling for whatever reason.
So both partners must try to be open in this matter and gently inquire if other person is happy or satisfied?
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Very good answer.
1-No spouse has to use force to obtain sexual gratification and if any conflict arises, a third party including court can be and should be consulted.
2-The root cause of one partner must be looked at and remedied appropriately.
3-"Sex by force" (its not rape ) is prohibited under any circumstances. The idea of 'raping' a spouse is ridiculous.
4- There could be some psychologic factors as well and in extreme situation and I repeat,... in extreme situations divorce can be obtained.
5- I suspect a forceful sex in marriage is less common than unwillingness during sex in marriage. The partner may just be quiet about being unwilling for whatever reason.
So both partners must try to be open in this matter and gently inquire if other person is happy or satisfied?
I agree.
The root cause of rape is the need to dominate and control. Remedy that? Then recondition the entire culture.
Sex by force isn't rape? Pray tell... what is your definition of rape?
Forcing your spouse to have sex is extreme, and therefore divorce should be allowed without any stigma attached.
Agreed.
You should refer to my debate earlier. It may open your eyes to some of your own biases.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
And yet here we are, talkiing about reforming them AGAIN... it's a vicious cycle :)
and how is this a bad thing?