Re: Islam and marital rape...
Kind of like an ostrich...
Give me a break!
You've got 30 minutes .... :)
Re: Islam and marital rape...
You've got 30 minutes .... :)
lol :)
Re: Islam and marital rape...
For all those who have problems reading or did not bother to read through the whole thread:
Here are my points:
1 - Some people want to call it marital rape and I choose to call it spousal abuse.
That's your opinion, but the terminology cannot be debated. It's rape, married or not.
2 - Some people pointed out that calling it abuse eclipses the gravity of it however calling it rape exxagerates the concept of marriage associated between two spouses.
No. Not calling it rape degrades the gravity of the crime. If you choose to say abuse, then you yourself, do not view marital rape to be that grave of a crime.
**3 - At no point have I said it can be condoned.
**You are inferring that it is less of a grave crime than that of an unwed/widowed/divorced woman being raped. It's misogyny at it's best. Please refer to my post about rape punishments according to property laws :)
4 - The punishments for both should not be the same.
Yes, they should.
5 - In Islam the rapist and adulterer are both punishable by the same approach. The topic of this thread was Islam and Marital rape not Marital rape and the UN or USA, so lets stick to the confines of religion here.
Islam says that oppression is worse than death, and rape is the worst form of oppression, hence it is worse than death. I don't know how I can make it any clearer. Rape is rape, regardless of how you want to candy coat it.
6 - Normally I don't think a woman would think about marrying her rapist whereas if the husband had forced sex upon her it may not alienate her necessarily like it would in the case of a rapist because the bond there is more than just that, they are a couple.
I fail to understand your reasoning.If a woman is raped by her husband, it completely shatters any trust between them, and the woman lives in perpetual fear. I'd rather be raped by a man I don't know than be raped by my husband, who I have to live with, see everyday, cook for, and sleep with. It's traumatizing and psychological torture.
**7 - Most of the men who may force their wives into undesirable sex may not even ever think about doing the same to a woman they are not married to. A common rapist has no regard for his relationship with the victim.
**A man who rapes his wife has no regard for his relationship with his wife. Above all things, he should respect his wife. Rape is not about sex, it's about control.
8 - Such behavior of a husband must be dealt differently than that of a rapist.
There is no difference. ALLAH does not see a difference, why should you?
9 - The same husband may be willingly invited to have sex by the wife who at times might be forcing his way. Would a woman willingly invite her rapist later on.
Heh. I suggest you look into studies on rape. If a woman is married and she is raped and abused, she is likely to stay in the marriage due to OBLIGATION. And as a testament to your attitude and many of those who share yours, many women view that they have to make themselves "sexually," available due to obligation. Don't forget the fact that if a man rapes his wife, she may submit in order to NOT be raped again. Disassociation can be viewed as consent. There is also denial. Not to mention that many women also become promiscuous after being raped. They're still damaged, and they get little from sex. You really need to do some reading on this topic.
10 - The bond between husband and wife is not that of strangers where such execesses are treated as crimes straight away.
There is no bond between husband and wife when he shatters that bond and rapes her. He's a common criminal, nikkah or no nikkah.
11 - Use your god given brain before you start saying it should be punishable the same as a rapist, if a husband forced sex of his wife once should she go and have him stoned to death and live the rest of her life as a widow and with orphaned children. If an unmarried or even married woman gets raped by another it has violated her privacy also (which is no secret for her husband) or she may not even get married because of that and shunned by her society (these are all realities). If a husband did that she can talk to people in confidence and try to rectify the husbands behavior and if it doesn't work then get a Khul instead of enduring the abuse in my opinion.
That's the beauty of Islam. The victim can choose whether or not to punish the perpetrator of the crime. Use your God given brain and read about Islam, and start thinking about women as more than chattel.
**12 - The sensitivities involved in marriage are different from a normal rape situation.
**Yes, they very well may be worse.
13 - Please use your brains instead of balls before replying now.
I wish you'd use your brain.
14 - In all honesty I can't imagine a husband would be doing to his wife what a rapist does with a victim woman. The comparison is unfair. At least I haven't seen that happen in muslims maybe it happens in western countries where even in marriage individualities are concerned and they still live like independent people. Please do not be comparing the brutality, attitude and un-concern involved in rape to a husband forcing sex with his wife, its apples to oranges here. And if it is then by all means persecute the guy.
The brutality of this in a traditional Muslim family is worse concerning marital rape. The woman is completely dependent on the husband and therefore views little way out. The husband is the leader of the family, and therefore has to be viewed with respect. Everything is shattered. Not to mention cultural obligation to stay married, and family pressure and social stimaga for those who are divorced! It's called hopelessness, and torture.
Look up the word misogyny, you could be the poster child for it.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
1 - Some people want to call it marital rape and I choose to call it spousal abuse.
Theyre not the same thing. Manslaughter is not the same as murder, according to Islamic law or any other law. They have different terms because they're different things. Rape and abuse are different things. Being deliberately cruel to your spouse, hitting him/her, slapping him/her, throwing things at him/her with the intent to cause harm.. thats domestic/marital abuse. Thats not rape. The woman could be equally guilty of abusing her husband if she did any of that.
Rape is forcing another person to have sex against their will. When one forces someone to do that, they inevitably cause either physical or emotional harm. So yes, they've abused their spouse in the process of raping her but theres no denying that what they have done is rape.. ie forced themselves on the person when she was unwilling.
Whether the person is your spouse or not doesnt make it any less/more acceptable. Islam doesnt say that once you're married you have the RIGHT to have sex whenever you want, however you want. Islam says once you're married, you're ALLOWED to have sex, whereas before marriage you werent.
Just because Im allowed to do something, doesnt mean I have the right to do it. I may be allowed to hit someone, doesnt mean I have the right to hit them.
2 - Some people pointed out that calling it abuse eclipses the gravity of it however calling it rape exxagerates the concept of marriage associated between two spouses.
Marriage is utterly sacred and meant to be a support for both people involved. What do you think is more of a crime, more of a betrayal? That a woman's body is violated by a stranger who forces her to have sex against her will or is violated by the man she married, who should have had more consideration and affection and love for her. Its so easy for a man to say the situation is different, place yourself in the wife's shoes and imagine how it would feel.
The woman has been violated either way, no where does Islam sanction forcing one's wife to have sex.
3 - At no point have I said it can be condoned.
No, you didnt. But insisting that its abuse and not rape makes it more acceptable. Its saying just because a woman is married, she gives up the right to say no, I dont want to. Where in the Quran does it say thats what marriage entails for the woman? I dont want to hear what some imam has said about it.
4 - The punishments for both should not be the same.
Why not? Its the same act.. violating the other's body, going against their will to satisfy one's own desire. If Islam doesnt give you the right to do that, marriage or no marriage, then that act should have the same punishment.
5 - In Islam the rapist and adulterer are both punishable by the same approach. The topic of this thread was Islam and Marital rape not Marital rape and the UN or USA, so lets stick to the confines of religion here.
And the reason Islam does that is not to give any legitimacy to either. Why do you assume that because the punishment is the same, then that must mean that forcing sex in a marriage isnt rape? Why that conclusion? Why not conclude that in Allah SWT's eyes, violating a woman, any woman, spouse or not, is as great a crime ?
6 - Normally I don't think a woman would think about marrying her rapist whereas if the husband had forced sex upon her it may not alienate her necessarily like it would in the case of a rapist because the bond there is more than just that, they are a couple.
Again, why do you assume that just because a woman remains in the marriage after being raped, it must be becase she doesnt view him as a rapist? There are lots of reasons why women stay: the stigma thats attached to divorced women in many societies, children, fear, the concept of honor, the prospect of 'shaming' the family, further abuse etc
7 - Most of the men who may force their wives into undesirable sex may not even ever think about doing the same to a woman they are not married to. A common rapist has no regard for his relationship with the victim.
Of course they wouldnt because they would know they def couldnt get away with doing that to another woman. So that makes it ok to do it to your wife?
8 - Such behavior of a husband must be dealt differently than that of a rapist.
Again why? Its the same act, the same disregard for the others emotions,wants, feelings, the same desire to act on a sexual urge, the same violation of another's body and in the case of a spouse, a complete disregard for the woman one is supposed to love.
9 - The same husband may be willingly invited to have sex by the wife who at times might be forcing his way. Would a woman willingly invite her rapist later on.
No, she probably wouldnt even invite her husband again if it wasnt for the hundred social/cultural factors that come into a play in a marriage.
10 - The bond between husband and wife is not that of strangers where such execesses are treated as crimes straight away.
Its more of a crime that someone who is supposed to protect and love his wife could do that to her.
11 - Use your god given brain before you start saying it should be punishable the same as a rapist, if a husband forced sex of his wife once should she go and have him stoned to death and live the rest of her life as a widow and with orphaned children. If an unmarried or even married woman gets raped by another it has violated her privacy also (which is no secret for her husband) or she may not even get married because of that and shunned by her society (these are all realities). If a husband did that she can talk to people in confidence and try to rectify the husbands behavior and if it doesn't work then get a Khul instead of enduring the abuse in my opinion.
She should be able to choose to do what she wants; get a khula, leave him, forgive him and stay with him. Thats not the issue. The issue is that islamic law doesnt address any method of justice for a wife if she has been raped by her husband. Sharia wasnt sent down by Allah SWT, the Quran was. Muslims then tried to formulate a law that would be based on the Quran. There is no reason laws cant be adapted if theyre not going against the Quran. Can she go to the courts and say "Ive been raped by my husband, I dont just want this marriage annulled, I want him punished for what he did"?
12 - The sensitivities involved in marriage are different from a normal rape situation.
Exactly. If anything, its even more cruel that a husband could inflict such an act on his wife.
13 - Please use your brains instead of balls before replying now.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean they dont have the capacity to think and formulate an opinion.
*14 - In all honesty I can't imagine a husband would be doing to his wife what a rapist does with a victim woman. The comparison is unfair. At least I haven't seen that happen in muslims maybe it happens in western countries where even in marriage individualities are concerned and they still live like independent people. Please do not be comparing the brutality, attitude and un-concern involved in rape to a husband forcing sex with his wife, its apples to oranges here. And if it is then by all means persecute the guy.
[/quote]
*
Really? Go google Rani al-Baz, the Saudi reporter who was badly beaten by her husband and see pictures of what he did to her. If that isnt brutality and unconcern, I dont know what is. She had the guts to show everyone what her husband had done to her. How many more women are out there who suffer abuse and rape in silence, just because the person inflicting it is their husband? Dont demean them by saying they havent been raped. You are not in their place, you dont have the right to make that judgement call.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
1 - Some people want to call it marital rape and I choose to call it spousal abuse.
Theyre not the same thing. Manslaughter is not the same as murder, according to Islamic law or any other law. They have different terms because they're different things. Rape and abuse are different things. Being deliberately cruel to your spouse, hitting him/her, slapping him/her, throwing things at him/her with the intent to cause harm.. thats domestic/marital abuse. Thats not rape. The woman could be equally guilty of abusing her husband if she did any of that. Rape is forcing another person to have sex against their will. When one forces someone to do that, they inevitably cause either physical or emotional harm. So yes, they've abused their spouse in the process of raping her but theres no denying that what they have done is rape.. ie forced themselves on the person when she was unwilling. Whether the person is your spouse or not doesnt make it any less/more acceptable. Islam doesnt say that once you're married you have the RIGHT to have sex whenever you want, however you want. Islam says once you're married, you're ALLOWED to have sex, whereas before marriage you werent. Just because Im allowed to do something, doesnt mean I have the right to do it. I may be allowed to hit someone, doesnt mean I have the right to hit them.
2 - Some people pointed out that calling it abuse eclipses the gravity of it however calling it rape exxagerates the concept of marriage associated between two spouses.
Marriage is utterly sacred and meant to be a support for both people involved. What do you think is more of a crime, more of a betrayal? That a woman's body is violated by a stranger who forces her to have sex against her will or is violated by the man she married, who should have had more consideration and affection and love for her. Its so easy for a man to say the situation is different, place yourself in the wife's shoes and imagine how it would feel. The woman has been violated either way, no where does Islam sanction forcing one's wife to have sex.
3 - At no point have I said it can be condoned.
No, you didnt. But insisting that its abuse and not rape makes it more acceptable. Its saying just because a woman is married, she gives up the right to say no, I dont want to. Where in the Quran does it say thats what marriage entails for the woman? I dont want to hear what some imam has said about it.
4 - The punishments for both should not be the same.
Why not? Its the same act.. violating the other's body, going against their will to satisfy one's own desire. If Islam doesnt give you the right to do that, marriage or no marriage, then that act should have the same punishment.
5 - In Islam the rapist and adulterer are both punishable by the same approach. The topic of this thread was Islam and Marital rape not Marital rape and the UN or USA, so lets stick to the confines of religion here.
And the reason Islam does that is not to give any legitimacy to either. Why do you assume that because the punishment is the same, then that must mean that forcing sex in a marriage isnt rape? Why that conclusion? Why not conclude that in Allah SWT's eyes, violating a woman, any woman, spouse or not, is as great a crime ?
6 - Normally I don't think a woman would think about marrying her rapist whereas if the husband had forced sex upon her it may not alienate her necessarily like it would in the case of a rapist because the bond there is more than just that, they are a couple.
Again, why do you assume that just because a woman remains in the marriage after being raped, it must be becase she doesnt view him as a rapist? There are lots of reasons why women stay: the stigma thats attached to divorced women in many societies, children, fear, the concept of honor, the prospect of 'shaming' the family, further abuse etc
7 - Most of the men who may force their wives into undesirable sex may not even ever think about doing the same to a woman they are not married to. A common rapist has no regard for his relationship with the victim.
Of course they wouldnt because they would know they def couldnt get away with doing that to another woman. So that makes it ok to do it to your wife?
8 - Such behavior of a husband must be dealt differently than that of a rapist.
Again why? Its the same act, the same disregard for the others emotions,wants, feelings, the same desire to act on a sexual urge, the same violation of another's body and in the case of a spouse, a complete disregard for the woman one is supposed to love.
9 - The same husband may be willingly invited to have sex by the wife who at times might be forcing his way. Would a woman willingly invite her rapist later on.
No, she probably wouldnt even invite her husband again if it wasnt for the hundred social/cultural factors that come into a play in a marriage.
10 - The bond between husband and wife is not that of strangers where such execesses are treated as crimes straight away.
Its more of a crime that someone who is supposed to protect and love his wife could do that to her.
11 - Use your god given brain before you start saying it should be punishable the same as a rapist, if a husband forced sex of his wife once should she go and have him stoned to death and live the rest of her life as a widow and with orphaned children. If an unmarried or even married woman gets raped by another it has violated her privacy also (which is no secret for her husband) or she may not even get married because of that and shunned by her society (these are all realities). If a husband did that she can talk to people in confidence and try to rectify the husbands behavior and if it doesn't work then get a Khul instead of enduring the abuse in my opinion.
She should be able to choose to do what she wants; get a khula, leave him, forgive him and stay with him. Thats not the issue. The issue is that islamic law doesnt address any method of justice for a wife if she has been raped by her husband. Sharia wasnt sent down by Allah SWT, the Quran was. Muslims then tried to formulate a law that would be based on the Quran. There is no reason laws cant be adapted if theyre not going against the Quran. Can she go to the courts and say "Ive been raped by my husband, I dont just want this marriage annulled, I want him punished for what he did"?
12 - The sensitivities involved in marriage are different from a normal rape situation.
Exactly. If anything, its even more cruel that a husband could inflict such an act on his wife.
13 - Please use your brains instead of balls before replying now.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean they dont have the capacity to think and formulate an opinion.
14 - In all honesty I can't imagine a husband would be doing to his wife what a rapist does with a victim woman. The comparison is unfair. At least I haven't seen that happen in muslims maybe it happens in western countries where even in marriage individualities are concerned and they still live like independent people. Please do not be comparing the brutality, attitude and un-concern involved in rape to a husband forcing sex with his wife, its apples to oranges here. And if it is then by all means persecute the guy.
Really? Go google Rani al-Baz, the Saudi reporter who was badly beaten by her husband and see pictures of what he did to her. If that isnt brutality and unconcern, I dont know what is. She had the guts to show everyone what her husband had done to her. How many more women are out there who suffer abuse and rape in silence, just because the person inflicting it is their husband? Dont demean them by saying they havent been raped. You are not in their place, you dont have the right to make that judgement call.
[/quote]
Wow, you had the very sentiments as me, almost word for word! I'm glad there's at least two other intelligent people on this forum.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
MatineeSiren and Narissa you btoh make a lot of sense...
What Narissa did raise was the whole question of my thread...im not suggesting that marital rape is different to rape but just wondering whether there is any difference in terms of legislation regarding it...
For instance would it be required to have the witnesses present etc...if found guilty is the punishment the same and what not...
From a rational perspective its worse than raping a random woman to me but is it treated as such in Islam?...
Re: Islam and marital rape...
MatineeSiren and Narissa you btoh make a lot of sense...
What Narissa did raise was the whole question of my thread...im not suggesting that marital rape is different to rape but just wondering whether there is any difference in terms of legislation regarding it...
For instance would it be required to have the witnesses present etc...if found guilty is the punishment the same and what not...
From a rational perspective its worse than raping a random woman to me but is it treated as such in Islam?...
NBN, let me point this out again... the word for rape (be it any form: marital or random) is called RAJF... the Quran is very clear about this:
33:61 Accursed, they (المرجفون) will be seized wherever found and slain one and all.
Please notice again that the word is not "Zanaa bil Jabr" but RAJF (causing to tremble)...
RAPE, in any form is worse than adultry. Zana is punishable by lashes (not stoning/death) but rajf is punishable by death. That is how grave such an act is in the eyes of God.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
So what your saying is that tis dealt with in exactly the same manner...
So if a woman was to complain that her husband was raping her and it was proved he would be put to death?...
Re: Islam and marital rape...
MatineeSiren and Narissa you btoh make a lot of sense...
What Narissa did raise was the whole question of my thread...im not suggesting that marital rape is different to rape but just wondering whether there is any difference in terms of legislation regarding it...
For instance would it be required to have the witnesses present etc...if found guilty is the punishment the same and what not...
From a rational perspective its worse than raping a random woman to me but is it treated as such in Islam?...
In Islam, it is. If you rely on the Quran it is. But sharia law is an interpretation of the Quran. There are parts that are outdated and need to be reformed. Look at how the law regarding rape is applied in countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. You need 4 male witnesses to the act of rape otherwise the woman who brings the accusation will be accused of adultery!
It is beyond ridiculous that in this day and age of technology and DNA testing, sharia requires 4 male witnesses to rape. There are countless raped women, mainly uneducated who dont have recourse to justice, who are languishing in Pakistani jail cells because they tried to get justice for themselves. Or the poor 19 yr old Saudi girl who was sentenced to 90 lashes after she was raped several times by a gang of four boys because no one saw them and she was too terrified to make an accusation?
Does the Quran say that we shouldnt use technology to mankind's benefit? How can any Muslim think that our Creator, Most Merciful, would not want us to use our resources ( in this case technology) to determine the truth and bring the perpetrators to justice.
If we went according to the Quran, no distinction would be made btw marital and non-marital rape and the punishment would be the same. But we dont, we're forced to rely on the sharia which doesnt mete out any punishment to most rapists because of the 4 witness rule much less husbands who rape their wives.
Can you imagine if a woman did something awful to her husband, like permanently physically damaged him or tried to kill him, and all he could do was go to the courts and ask for an annulment after which she went off scot free!?!
Re: Islam and marital rape...
So what your saying is that tis dealt with in exactly the same manner...
So if a woman was to complain that her husband was raping her and it was proved he would be put to death?...
As brutal as it sounds, the worst case is the death penalty... Beyond that, the preceding versre says: لنغرينك بهم "We indeed give you authority/mastery for them". So it is upto the state to decide, but the punishment ranges upto execution!
Re: Islam and marital rape...
If we went according to the Quran, no distinction would be made btw marital and non-marital rape and the punishment would be the same.
What ayaat of the Quran are you referring to?
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Hypnotix2000...
Its not brutal if that is what Islam commands...
Narissa...
I understand your concerns sister and what you say makes rational sense to me...But be careful your treading dangerous ground a little...id be careful not to say things like 'Quran needs to be reformed' cos what your suggesting then is that the Quran isnt complete and contradicts the idea that Allahs rule can be implemeted anytime reagrdless of time or place...
How we tend to deal with new realities is we tend to implement ijtihad which is deducing a hukm from the text and applying it for a new reality...The Quran and Sunnah have the answers to everything its a case of finding a correct source...
What i have heard though and people can correct me if im wrong is that four witnesses is a prerequisite...a brother told me that even if there is videotape of the incident then it is inadmissable if there arent four witnesses?...is this indeed correct?...
Also things to do with a woman being charged with zina if a rape cant be proved...is that actually correct?...Cos since there are no witnesses to a rape i would assume there are no witnesses to the zina either so on what basis are girls getting lashes or other severe punishments?...
Also how does a court ensure that a witness is legitimate...say if i was a chick and i didnt like a guy...whats to stop me saying this guy raped me and then pay four people off to say they saw it?...
Jazakallah for any answers i recieve...
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Hypnotix2000...
Its not brutal if that is what Islam commands...
I only wanted to put it mildly... but yes, rape (whatever form) is indeed worse than murder in many cases.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
For all those who have problems reading or did not bother to read through the whole thread:
Here are my points:
1 - Some people want to call it marital rape and I choose to call it spousal abuse.
*That's your opinion, but the terminology cannot be debated. It's rape, married or not.
*
So if I said sexual assault you would be fine.
2 - Some people pointed out that calling it abuse eclipses the gravity of it however calling it rape exxagerates the concept of marriage associated between two spouses. No. Not calling it rape degrades the gravity of the crime. If you choose to say abuse, then you yourself, do not view marital rape to be that grave of a crime.
Oh I view it as a grave abuse or crime however I think it should be dealt with differently than a normal rapist.
4 - The punishments for both should not be the same.
Yes, they should.
**
**
And what should they be?
5 - In Islam the rapist and adulterer are both punishable by the same approach. The topic of this thread was Islam and Marital rape not Marital rape and the UN or USA, so lets stick to the confines of religion here. Islam says that oppression is worse than death, and rape is the worst form of oppression, hence it is worse than death. I don't know how I can make it any clearer. Rape is rape, regardless of how you want to candy coat it.
Please provide references. On the same token would you agree with me if I said that Brothel owners qualify as rapists.
6 - Normally I don't think a woman would think about marrying her rapist whereas if the husband had forced sex upon her it may not alienate her necessarily like it would in the case of a rapist because the bond there is more than just that, they are a couple. I fail to understand your reasoning.If a woman is raped by her husband, it completely shatters any trust between them, and the woman lives in perpetual fear. I'd rather be raped by a man I don't know than be raped by my husband, who I have to live with, see everyday, cook for, and sleep with. It's traumatizing and psychological torture.
If the husband beats his wife half to death then it is equally traumatizing isn't it. But that is abuse and not rape. Rape is a form of abuse.
7 - Most of the men who may force their wives into undesirable sex may not even ever think about doing the same to a woman they are not married to. A common rapist has no regard for his relationship with the victim. A man who rapes his wife has no regard for his relationship with his wife. Above all things, he should respect his wife. Rape is not about sex, it's about control.
It is about sex for which control is required.
8 - Such behavior of a husband must be dealt differently than that of a rapist. There is no difference. ALLAH does not see a difference, why should you?
Audhubillah! As if you can see from Allah SWT eyes.
9 - The same husband may be willingly invited to have sex by the wife who at times might be forcing his way. Would a woman willingly invite her rapist later on. Heh. I suggest you look into studies on rape. If a woman is married and she is raped and abused, she is likely to stay in the marriage due to OBLIGATION. And as a testament to your attitude and many of those who share yours, many women view that they have to make themselves "sexually," available due to obligation. Don't forget the fact that if a man rapes his wife, she may submit in order to NOT be raped again. Disassociation can be viewed as consent. There is also denial. Not to mention that many women also become promiscuous after being raped. They're still damaged, and they get little from sex. You really need to do some reading on this topic.
This is where people get it wrong, Islam does not obligate it to be available for sex if you can't. However if there is nothing stopping you from it then you should not avoid. The reasons could be numerous and circumstantial. It seems all you do is reading and have no real life experience of a husband/wife relationship.
10 - The bond between husband and wife is not that of strangers where such execesses are treated as crimes straight away. There is no bond between husband and wife when he shatters that bond and rapes her. He's a common criminal, nikkah or no nikkah.
Can you explain to me what kind of a couple gets married and not have sex (unless they are gay, even they do it). Marriage is what gives you the permission to even think about having sex with your spouse. Btw can a husband accuse a wife of raping him. Any thoughts about that or any of your reading.
11 - Use your god given brain before you start saying it should be punishable the same as a rapist, if a husband forced sex of his wife once should she go and have him stoned to death and live the rest of her life as a widow and with orphaned children. If an unmarried or even married woman gets raped by another it has violated her privacy also (which is no secret for her husband) or she may not even get married because of that and shunned by her society (these are all realities). If a husband did that she can talk to people in confidence and try to rectify the husbands behavior and if it doesn't work then get a Khul instead of enduring the abuse in my opinion. That's the beauty of Islam. The victim can choose whether or not to punish the perpetrator of the crime. Use your God given brain and read about Islam, and start thinking about women as more than chattel.
Man you are hilarious, you agree to what I proposed and tell me to read about Islam.
12 - The sensitivities involved in marriage are different from a normal rape situation. Yes, they very well may be worse.
I agree with that.
13 - Please use your brains instead of balls before replying now. I wish you'd use your brain.
After telling that you read up and state instead of thinking about the consequences of what you propose casts doubts in my brain that you use yours. Sorry.
14 - In all honesty I can't imagine a husband would be doing to his wife what a rapist does with a victim woman. The comparison is unfair. At least I haven't seen that happen in muslims maybe it happens in western countries where even in marriage individualities are concerned and they still live like independent people. Please do not be comparing the brutality, attitude and un-concern involved in rape to a husband forcing sex with his wife, its apples to oranges here. And if it is then by all means persecute the guy. The brutality of this in a traditional Muslim family is worse concerning marital rape. The woman is completely dependent on the husband and therefore views little way out. The husband is the leader of the family, and therefore has to be viewed with respect. Everything is shattered. Not to mention cultural obligation to stay married, and family pressure and social stimaga for those who are divorced! It's called hopelessness, and torture.
Look up the word misogyny, you could be the poster child for it.
You know I am not one who likes to fling insults during a conversation but don't be surprised when it comes.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
1 - Some people want to call it marital rape and I choose to call it spousal abuse.
Theyre not the same thing. Manslaughter is not the same as murder, according to Islamic law or any other law. They have different terms because they're different things. Rape and abuse are different things. Being deliberately cruel to your spouse, hitting him/her, slapping him/her, throwing things at him/her with the intent to cause harm.. thats domestic/marital abuse. Thats not rape. The woman could be equally guilty of abusing her husband if she did any of that. Rape is forcing another person to have sex against their will. When one forces someone to do that, they inevitably cause either physical or emotional harm. So yes, they've abused their spouse in the process of raping her but theres no denying that what they have done is rape.. ie forced themselves on the person when she was unwilling. Whether the person is your spouse or not doesnt make it any less/more acceptable. Islam doesnt say that once you're married you have the RIGHT to have sex whenever you want, however you want. Islam says once you're married, you're ALLOWED to have sex, whereas before marriage you werent. Just because Im allowed to do something, doesnt mean I have the right to do it. I may be allowed to hit someone, doesnt mean I have the right to hit them.
2 - Some people pointed out that calling it abuse eclipses the gravity of it however calling it rape exxagerates the concept of marriage associated between two spouses.
Marriage is utterly sacred and meant to be a support for both people involved. What do you think is more of a crime, more of a betrayal? That a woman's body is violated by a stranger who forces her to have sex against her will or is violated by the man she married, who should have had more consideration and affection and love for her. Its so easy for a man to say the situation is different, place yourself in the wife's shoes and imagine how it would feel. The woman has been violated either way, no where does Islam sanction forcing one's wife to have sex.
3 - At no point have I said it can be condoned.
No, you didnt. But insisting that its abuse and not rape makes it more acceptable. Its saying just because a woman is married, she gives up the right to say no, I dont want to. Where in the Quran does it say thats what marriage entails for the woman? I dont want to hear what some imam has said about it.
4 - The punishments for both should not be the same.
Why not? Its the same act.. violating the other's body, going against their will to satisfy one's own desire. If Islam doesnt give you the right to do that, marriage or no marriage, then that act should have the same punishment.
5 - In Islam the rapist and adulterer are both punishable by the same approach. The topic of this thread was Islam and Marital rape not Marital rape and the UN or USA, so lets stick to the confines of religion here.
And the reason Islam does that is not to give any legitimacy to either. Why do you assume that because the punishment is the same, then that must mean that forcing sex in a marriage isnt rape? Why that conclusion? Why not conclude that in Allah SWT's eyes, violating a woman, any woman, spouse or not, is as great a crime ?
6 - Normally I don't think a woman would think about marrying her rapist whereas if the husband had forced sex upon her it may not alienate her necessarily like it would in the case of a rapist because the bond there is more than just that, they are a couple.
Again, why do you assume that just because a woman remains in the marriage after being raped, it must be becase she doesnt view him as a rapist? There are lots of reasons why women stay: the stigma thats attached to divorced women in many societies, children, fear, the concept of honor, the prospect of 'shaming' the family, further abuse etc
7 - Most of the men who may force their wives into undesirable sex may not even ever think about doing the same to a woman they are not married to. A common rapist has no regard for his relationship with the victim.
Of course they wouldnt because they would know they def couldnt get away with doing that to another woman. So that makes it ok to do it to your wife?
8 - Such behavior of a husband must be dealt differently than that of a rapist.
Again why? Its the same act, the same disregard for the others emotions,wants, feelings, the same desire to act on a sexual urge, the same violation of another's body and in the case of a spouse, a complete disregard for the woman one is supposed to love.
9 - The same husband may be willingly invited to have sex by the wife who at times might be forcing his way. Would a woman willingly invite her rapist later on.
No, she probably wouldnt even invite her husband again if it wasnt for the hundred social/cultural factors that come into a play in a marriage.
10 - The bond between husband and wife is not that of strangers where such execesses are treated as crimes straight away.
Its more of a crime that someone who is supposed to protect and love his wife could do that to her.
11 - Use your god given brain before you start saying it should be punishable the same as a rapist, if a husband forced sex of his wife once should she go and have him stoned to death and live the rest of her life as a widow and with orphaned children. If an unmarried or even married woman gets raped by another it has violated her privacy also (which is no secret for her husband) or she may not even get married because of that and shunned by her society (these are all realities). If a husband did that she can talk to people in confidence and try to rectify the husbands behavior and if it doesn't work then get a Khul instead of enduring the abuse in my opinion.
She should be able to choose to do what she wants; get a khula, leave him, forgive him and stay with him. Thats not the issue. The issue is that islamic law doesnt address any method of justice for a wife if she has been raped by her husband. Sharia wasnt sent down by Allah SWT, the Quran was. Muslims then tried to formulate a law that would be based on the Quran. There is no reason laws cant be adapted if theyre not going against the Quran. Can she go to the courts and say "Ive been raped by my husband, I dont just want this marriage annulled, I want him punished for what he did"?
12 - The sensitivities involved in marriage are different from a normal rape situation.
Exactly. If anything, its even more cruel that a husband could inflict such an act on his wife.
13 - Please use your brains instead of balls before replying now.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean they dont have the capacity to think and formulate an opinion.
14 - In all honesty I can't imagine a husband would be doing to his wife what a rapist does with a victim woman. The comparison is unfair. At least I haven't seen that happen in muslims maybe it happens in western countries where even in marriage individualities are concerned and they still live like independent people. Please do not be comparing the brutality, attitude and un-concern involved in rape to a husband forcing sex with his wife, its apples to oranges here. And if it is then by all means persecute the guy.
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well said,
comprehesive reply,
Sometime a single word/sentence has different meanings in different cultures and even in different environment in the same culture. The relationship of husband and wife based on Love and Affection, Need and Desire, Rights and Duties .... and when this relationship starts, the word "rape" cant be used. A wife and husband are equal, but when we analyze at micro level, she has more rights than a husband. In case of domestic violence, she can use her rights.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Hypnotix2000... Its not brutal if that is what Islam commands...
Narissa... I understand your concerns sister and what you say makes rational sense to me...But be careful your treading dangerous ground a little...id be careful not to say things like 'Quran needs to be reformed' cos what your suggesting then is that the Quran isnt complete and contradicts the idea that Allahs rule can be implemeted anytime reagrdless of time or place...
How we tend to deal with new realities is we tend to implement ijtihad which is deducing a hukm from the text and applying it for a new reality...The Quran and Sunnah have the answers to everything its a case of finding a correct source...
What i have heard though and people can correct me if im wrong is that four witnesses is a prerequisite...a brother told me that even if there is videotape of the incident then it is inadmissable if there arent four witnesses?...is this indeed correct?...
Also things to do with a woman being charged with zina if a rape cant be proved...is that actually correct?...Cos since there are no witnesses to a rape i would assume there are no witnesses to the zina either so on what basis are girls getting lashes or other severe punishments?...
Also how does a court ensure that a witness is legitimate...say if i was a chick and i didnt like a guy...whats to stop me saying this guy raped me and then pay four people off to say they saw it?...
Jazakallah for any answers i recieve...
I wasnt saying the Quran needs to be reformed. I was saying the Sharia does. I agree with you, I think all the answers we ever need can be found in the Quran because it is complete and eternal and ppl should refer to that source, not blindly to sharia laws. I also agree with the concept of ijtihad based on the Quran and highly authentic Sunnah, what Im trying to say is that ijtihad is clearly needed to reform the sharia to deal with new realities ( for eg. using DNA testing instead of 4 witnesses)
My point was that if we referred to the Quran, we can clearly see rape in any form is considered abhorrent. The sharia blurs boundaries in this particular area.
In answer to your question about what basis the woman is charged with zina..since the woman has brought the accusation of rape, she is saying that shes been forced to have sex, if there are no witnesses to the rape, then that accusation is taken as an admission that she had sex. Really convoluted logic but thats how it works with the current system. Ive seen it happen in Saudi where I lived for many years and Ive read many news articles about it happening in Pakistan. I tried to post links to an article but I cant post links yet.
Try searching for Zafran Bibi on google, there should be a dozen article on her situation, she went to the police claiming she had been raped and was charged with adultery.
Another more recent eg:
saudigazette.com.sa/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26590&Itemid=146
A court cant ensure a witness is legitimate. Thats another problem with the current system. You could do what you say and get away with it because you have 4 male witnesses; the assumption is that out of fear of Allah SWT and out of righteousness, people will not bear witness to something so serious unless they have actually witnessed it.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
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So if I said sexual assault you would be fine.
I would be fine if you called it rape, because that's what it is.
Oh I view it as a grave abuse or crime however I think it should be dealt with differently than a normal rapist.
By trying to change the terminology you ARE degrading the gravity of the crime, and therefore you are stating that it is less of a crime when it is within the marital bonds. A crime is a CRIME.
And what should they be?
They should be whatever the victim decides.
Please provide references. On the same token would you agree with me if I said that Brothel owners qualify as rapists. [2:191] …….. OPPRESSION is worse than murder. See also, [2:217] Considering that many women are forced into prostitution, and that 90% of women who are in the sex industry were victims of childhood rape or sexual abuse, yes, brothel owners are rapists.
If the husband beats his wife half to death then it is equally traumatizing isn't it. But that is abuse and not rape. Rape is a form of abuse.
That's subjective. Yes, rape is a form of abuse, but it doesn't negate the fact that rape is rape.
It is about sex for which control is required.
No. It's about control. Rape being about sex is a common misconception. Having worked with rape victims, and one of my dual majors being sociology (wherein I also delved heavily into psychology), I know this.
Audhubillah! As if you can see from Allah SWT eyes.
I believe in what I said and I will never change my mind. ALLAH views rape as rape, no matter what. I couldn't call myself a moral human being or Muslim without thinking so. Perhaps you should stop insinuating that you know what ALLAH thinks by using your misogynistic perception of Islam and the Quran to defend your views as well.
This is where people get it wrong, Islam does not obligate it to be available for sex if you can't. However if there is nothing stopping you from it then you should not avoid. The reasons could be numerous and circumstantial. It seems all you do is reading and have no real life experience of a husband/wife relationship.
Being physically unable to have sex and not wanting it are two different things. You can physically have sex, even if you don't want to. Being physically unable means that you can't. And in fact, I am married. It seems that you don't do any reading whatsoever.
Can you explain to me what kind of a couple gets married and not have sex (unless they are gay, even they do it). Marriage is what gives you the permission to even think about having sex with your spouse. Btw can a husband accuse a wife of raping him. Any thoughts about that or any of your reading.
We were discussing man on woman rape. IF you want to insult me on not speaking on that, perhaps you should have mentioned it as well. There is nothing about a couple not having sex in that statement, I said that if a man rapes his wife, he shatters that bond. Where is the connection to not having sex? Do you equate rape with sex? Is that how you'd treat your wife?
Man you are hilarious, you agree to what I proposed and tell me to read about Islam.
It's odd how you'd giggle about a woman who thinks that rape is horrible. You're a rape apologist.
I agree with that.
After telling that you read up and state instead of thinking about the consequences of what you propose casts doubts in my brain that you use yours. Sorry.
What consequences would arise from what I've proposed? Equality? Justice? Such horrid things they are.
You know I am not one who likes to fling insults during a conversation but don't be surprised when it comes.
*You've already insulted me, and you've insulted all women. I don't coddle those with darkness in their hearts. Insha ALLAH one day ALLAH will grant you the ability of self reflection. *
And in reference to my statement about your use of terminology, and what equates rape. The punishment for the crime reflects a societies view of the gravity of that crime. The lesser the punishment, the less the crime. That means that you do not view marital rape to be on equal grounds with any other sexual violation.
How utterly horrid.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
I wasnt saying the Quran needs to be reformed. I was saying the Sharia does. I agree with you, I think all the answers we ever need can be found in the Quran because it is complete and eternal and ppl should refer to that source, not blindly to sharia laws. I also agree with the concept of ijtihad based on the Quran and highly authentic Sunnah, what Im trying to say is that ijtihad is clearly needed to reform the sharia to deal with new realities ( for eg. using DNA testing instead of 4 witnesses) My point was that if we referred to the Quran, we can clearly see rape in any form is considered abhorrent. The sharia blurs boundaries in this particular area.
In answer to your question about what basis the woman is charged with zina..since the woman has brought the accusation of rape, she is saying that shes been forced to have sex, if there are no witnesses to the rape, then that accusation is taken as an admission that she had sex. Really convoluted logic but thats how it works with the current system. Ive seen it happen in Saudi where I lived for many years and Ive read many news articles about it happening in Pakistan. I tried to post links to an article but I cant post links yet. Try searching for Zafran Bibi on google, there should be a dozen article on her situation, she went to the police claiming she had been raped and was charged with adultery. Another more recent eg: saudigazette.com.sa/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26590&Itemid=146
A court cant ensure a witness is legitimate. Thats another problem with the current system. You could do what you say and get away with it because you have 4 male witnesses; the assumption is that out of fear of Allah SWT and out of righteousness, people will not bear witness to something so serious unless they have actually witnessed it.
Even secular rape laws are a joke. A woman can be raped and DNA won't even show that any sex occured. That link was utterly horrid. It brings tears to my eyes that people do this to women, and they do it in the name of Islam. This is NOT Islam. I know so many women who have been raped, and it makes me physically sick. Seeing some of the arguments posted by people makes me physically sick. It makes me physically sick because they are ignorant of their misogyny. May ALLAH protect us, and may He enlighten all of us. InshaALLAH, things will change, but I fear they won't.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
You can make a case of marital rape in every marriage irrespective of the religion. Plus it is not always the male sometimes Horny wives want to ride their men when they are not in the mood. So this is a very individualistic and debateable issue.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
You can make a case of marital rape in every marriage irrespective of the religion. Plus it is not always the male sometimes Horny wives want to ride their men when they are not in the mood. So this is a very individualistic and debateable issue.
Being "horny" is not being debated... rape is not necessarily perpetrated out of being "horny", it is perpetrated out of sheer animalistic behaviour of overpowering your victem (by doing whatever). Islam guarantees that if followed (Salaat) individually and collectively, such an animalistic behavior can be controlled and dealt with, unless you start depending on the so-called "sunnah" and "hadith", the examples of which I gave in my earlier post (#53).
I wasnt saying the Quran needs to be reformed. I was saying the Sharia does. I agree with you, I think all the answers we ever need can be found in the Quran because it is complete and eternal and ppl should refer to that source, not blindly to sharia laws. I also agree with the concept of ijtihad based on the Quran and highly authentic Sunnah, what Im trying to say is that ijtihad is clearly needed to reform the sharia to deal with new realities ( for eg. using DNA testing instead of 4 witnesses)
My point was that if we referred to the Quran, we can clearly see rape in any form is considered abhorrent.
Dear sister, the only Authentic Sunnah is to "Follow The Quran" since that is what the prophet did and in that is NO DOUBT... the most Authentic Hadith is what the prophet was commanded to "Say/Qul" in the Quran. The answers are in the Quran. Shariah is man-made, and prone to cultural influences AND FABRICATION.