Re: Islam and marital rape...
Welcome. Yes that is correct
Well it is good that you do think that it is bad behaviour... but I do not think this justifies the gravity of the perpetration. It is something forced with the intention of terrorising or venting which is RAPE.
I think we have reached an greement as much as we can and now it would really be arguing the semantics of terminology. I appreciate your responses and patience. Just one thing, when discussing with me, I never discuss to win arguments, my only intention is to bring out the truth as much as possible and leave it at that. We all can comprehend and interpret it as we like. I can't force my way of thinking on you but just explain why i think the way I do. Its up to you to infer whatever you may from it. JAK. Inshallah! I hope our paths will cross again on this forum.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
I think we have reached an greement as much as we can and now it would really be arguing the semantics of terminology. I appreciate your responses and patience. Just one thing, when discussing with me, I never discuss to win arguments, my only intention is to bring out the truth as much as possible and leave it at that. We all can comprehend and interpret it as we like. I can't force my way of thinking on you but just explain why i think the way I do. Its up to you to infer whatever you may from it. JAK. Inshallah! I hope our paths will cross again on this forum.
Dear brother, you're gentleman. One of your posts did give me the wrong impression resulting in my emotional question to you regarding abuse/violation. Later on you did allude to the fact that you do find such an act indecent, which is GOOD. My only concern is that leaving it at that is not doing justice with such an act.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
It is interesting to note that the Quran does not use the word "Zanaa bi-Jabr" ... rather the word used is RAJF: Creating Alarm, Causing to Tremble, Inciting fear, Harassing.
This part was not in your original post, so I'll reply to it.
The hud for adultry is death for married couples. There is no brutality of rape involved if it was even concentual between the two adulterers. The hud is for violating the right entitled through the sacred institution of marriage in Islam, which the adulterer does not have. Adios.
JAK.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
This part was not in your original post, so I'll reply to it.
The hud for adultry is death for married couples. There is no brutality of rape involved if it was even concentual between the two adulterers. The hud is for violating the right entitled through the sacred institution of marriage in Islam, which the adulterer does not have. Adios.
JAK.
Ok, I'll just give you a three-liner since I gotta jet... hudood/RAJM is a Hadith based interpretation (borrowed from Old-Testament/Judaeasm). The punishment for adultry is LASHES and not death-by-stoning in the Quran.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Dear brother, you're gentleman. One of your posts did give me the wrong impression resulting in my emotional question to you regarding abuse/violation. Later on you did allude to the fact that you do find such an act indecent, which is GOOD. My only concern is that leaving it at that is not doing justice with such an act.
Thank you. Maybe, but it in my opinion does not warrant the same punishment for that of a rapist. It might but we really have no example of such in our history from the times of Prophet SAW so we are left to our ijtihad. I would say depending on the intensity of the abuse the punishment should be equivalent. Like when you hear some mullah from Pakistan entering a burning rod into a womans vagina, I would probably agree with the most severe form of punishment for such a person. It may not be death but maybe castration. Like I said it all depends on the severity of the abuse.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
I don't care what religion it is.. I don't care what the status of the marriage is (good/bad).. if the wife does not want to have sex, the husband has NOOO RIGHT to force her into it.. if he does it forcefully it IS MARITAL RAPE...
I can't believe people actually say things like "the hubby has a RIGHT to sex.. why did she get married if she dint wana have sex"... no woman does not want to have sex for no reason.. if the relationship is not going good and there r some problems and so the woman is not feeling it.. theen thats it.. NO SEX.. just by being the hubby the guy does not get exclusive rigths to bang bang anytime he wants to...
Re: Islam and marital rape...
I don't care what religion it is.. I don't care what the status of the marriage is (good/bad).. if the wife does not want to have sex, the husband has NOOO RIGHT to force her into it.. if he does it forcefully it IS MARITAL RAPE...
I can't believe people actually say things like "the hubby has a RIGHT to sex.. why did she get married if she dint wana have sex"... no woman does not want to have sex for no reason.. if the relationship is not going good and there r some problems and so the woman is not feeling it.. theen thats it.. NO SEX.. just by being the hubby the guy does not get exclusive rigths to bang bang anytime he wants to...
Obviously you did not read the thread. Marriage gives you the right to bang bang not just when you want it. Without being married to that person you don't even have the right to go bang bang.
Now go bang bang and don't come back.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
You can call it marital rape, or you can call it domestic abuse. It doesn't change the nature of the crime. The action of forcing yourself on your spouse is a criminal act.
There is plenty in the Quran about not harming your wife in any physical way and treating your wife with kindness, etc. How the scenario of someone forcing themselves on their spouse fits into that picture, I can't fathom.
And its not a fake issue. Its real. Many of the marriages in our culture alone are arranged, and the couple doesn't really know each other well on their first wedding night. Some people might be shy of having sex the first night, and some people get forced into it. It doesn't make it right.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Obviously you did not read the thread. Marriage gives you the right to bang bang not just when you want it. Without being married to that person you don't even have the right to go bang bang.
Now go bang bang and don't come back.
haha chilll dude.. Marriage gives you the privilige of bang bang but not when the women is not willing.. and using the reason " y did u marry if u dint wana bang bang" is not valid bcoz there must b sum reason (bad relationship, physical abuse etc) which is makin the wife avoid sex.. in either case if you FORCE IT.. its MARITAL RAPE..and it SHUD B PUNISHABLE.. and in that case..the argument of marriage giving you the right to bang bang is invalid ..
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Just wondering how Islam would address the issue?...
As far as I know, there is no such concept in Islam. My guess would be that the way that it is addressed might depend on the aftermath of such an incident. If you want a real answer, you'd be better off consulting an a'alim than asking here.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Thank you. Maybe, but it in my opinion does not warrant the same punishment for that of a rapist. It might but we really have no example of such in our history from the times of Prophet SAW so we are left to our ijtihad.
I have alluded to this in my previous post and pointed to the example of RJF as inciting fear and terrorising... that is the intent of rape and that is what it should be classified as.
You can call it marital rape, or you can call it domestic abuse. It doesn't change the nature of the crime. The action of forcing yourself on your spouse is a criminal act.
Agreed, and I think calling it Marital abuse eclipses the gravity of this act.
There is plenty in the Quran about not harming your wife in any physical way and treating your wife with kindness, etc. How the scenario of someone forcing themselves on their spouse fits into that picture, I can't fathom.
And its not a fake issue. Its real. Many of the marriages in our culture alone are arranged, and the couple doesn't really know each other well on their first wedding night. Some people might be shy of having sex the first night, and some people get forced into it. It doesn't make it right.
Correct PCG, and it does not end at that... some people even vent their frustration on their wives and they think it is "lawful" under Islam. Unknowingly, they are commiting one of the gravest crimes and human-rights violations in the eyes of God.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Now if you force yourself out of consent then you are abusing that right, a RIGHT a person would not have had to begin with if it was out of wedlock and that would be called RAPE. In either case I would agree that it is not correct behavior.
Let me understand what you are saying....
RAPE can only happen if you do not have the "right" to have intercourse with a person?
MARITAL ABUSE (your term) can happen only if you have the "right" to have intercourse with a person?
Strange... so the violation of a person's will and body in the act of uninvited intercourse is not punishable by law depending on whether they are married to the perpetrator?
Interesting.... but unlikely to hold up in court.
Even more scary is your acceptance that violating of ones will and body in the act of intercourse (never mind the circumstances) is acceptable in anyway. And I say, your acceptance only because you are suggesting that though it is not a good thing to happen in a marriage, no punishment is mandated for the violence.
It is all about violence, not sex, not rights, not anything. Just violence. Apparantly you condone that.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Even more scary is your acceptance that violating of ones will and body in the act of intercourse (never mind the circumstances) is acceptable in anyway. And I say, your acceptance only because you are suggesting that though it is not a good thing to happen in a marriage, no punishment is mandated for the violence.
You will find this dilemma with most traditionalists/sectarians... It is hard for them to separate the two things.
The root of the problem lies in traditional teaching such as this:
Bukhari - narrated Abu Hurairah
"If a man calls his wife to bed and she refuses, and then he sleeps angry, the angels shall curse her until he awakens." Vol 4 Book 54 Relation 460
Muslim - related Aishah
"A woman can suckle a grown up bearded man so that she becomes haram for him (i.e. she cannot get married to him)" Book 8 Relation 3424-3428
And some really fascinating commentary by "Imam" Ghazaali:
"A wife should not refuse her husband if he wants to enjoy her body. If the wife of a man dies while he is pleased with her she will enter paradise. If a man wants sex his wife must comply with him even she is on the back of a camel. A woman cannot keep optional fast without her husband's permission. If she does God will not accept her fast" (volume 2, p.43)
Is this Islam? What kind of God would ordain this crap? Definitely not the God who revealed the Quran!
Regards...
Re: Islam and marital rape…
it exists, its sick, and it haunts you forever 
Re: Islam and marital rape...
hypno.. those translations/remarks are pretty insane.. its these kind of ppl i fear are hijacking islam and curropting it with their bullshyte
Re: Islam and marital rape...
**TerribleGuy **your probably right...
US Resident what i gather is that you define both acts differentlyand that forcing your wife to have sex with you against her consent is spousal abuse rather than marital rape...what then are the consequences in Islam for such an abuse?...Cos either way you have abused your partner whether it is someone you have rights to or not...
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Two questions for Hypnotix-2000 and MatineeSiren:
If your wife agrees to have concentual sex with another man while you are still married to her, what would you call it?
If your wife agrees to have concentual sex with you while you are still married to her, what would you call it?
I don't understand the connection whatsoever.
However, having consensual sex outside of marriage is zina.
Consensual sex while married is halal.
:)
Emphasis on the consensual.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
This argument is delving back to medieval concepts on what a woman is. Property.
Even now rape is judged by property laws. If a woman is married and raped by another, then she was obviously violated because she belongs to her husband. If she is a virgin and raped, then she was violated because she belongs to her father. If she is neither a virgin or married, then she belongs to no one, and is therefore fair game. If she belongs to her husband, than she is his property, and he has the right to do as he see's fit.
Think about it. This is how people judge women, it's all based on who owns her, rather than the notion that she owns herself.
Islam gives you the right to have sex in the marital bed, but it does not give you the right to force your spouse. I said it before, and I'll say it again. Rape is not allowed in Islam, married or not. Oppression is worse than death. Rape is the worst form of oppression, and is therefore, worse than death.
Don't try to debate terminology. Rape is rape, regardless of who's "property," the woman is.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
For all those who have problems reading or did not bother to read through the whole thread:
Here are my points:
1 - Some people want to call it marital rape and I choose to call it spousal abuse.
2 - Some people pointed out that calling it abuse eclipses the gravity of it however calling it rape exxagerates the concept of marriage associated between two spouses.
3 - At no point have I said it can be condoned.
4 - The punishments for both should not be the same.
5 - In Islam the rapist and adulterer are both punishable by the same approach. The topic of this thread was Islam and Marital rape not Marital rape and the UN or USA, so lets stick to the confines of religion here.
6 - Normally I don't think a woman would think about marrying her rapist whereas if the husband had forced sex upon her it may not alienate her necessarily like it would in the case of a rapist because the bond there is more than just that, they are a couple.
7 - Most of the men who may force their wives into undesirable sex may not even ever think about doing the same to a woman they are not married to. A common rapist has no regard for his relationship with the victim.
8 - Such behavior of a husband must be dealt differently than that of a rapist.
9 - The same husband may be willingly invited to have sex by the wife who at times might be forcing his way. Would a woman willingly invite her rapist later on.
10 - The bond between husband and wife is not that of strangers where such execesses are treated as crimes straight away.
11 - Use your god given brain before you start saying it should be punishable the same as a rapist, if a husband forced sex of his wife once should she go and have him stoned to death and live the rest of her life as a widow and with orphaned children. If an unmarried or even married woman gets raped by another it has violated her privacy also (which is no secret for her husband) or she may not even get married because of that and shunned by her society (these are all realities). If a husband did that she can talk to people in confidence and try to rectify the husbands behavior and if it doesn't work then get a Khul instead of enduring the abuse in my opinion.
12 - The sensitivities involved in marriage are different from a normal rape situation.
13 - Please use your brains instead of balls before replying now.
14 - In all honesty I can't imagine a husband would be doing to his wife what a rapist does with a victim woman. The comparison is unfair. At least I haven't seen that happen in muslims maybe it happens in western countries where even in marriage individualities are concerned and they still live like independent people. Please do not be comparing the brutality, attitude and un-concern involved in rape to a husband forcing sex with his wife, its apples to oranges here. And if it is then by all means persecute the guy.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
14 - In all honesty I can't imagine a husband would be doing to his wife what a rapist does with a victim woman.
Kind of like an ostrich...
*The comparison is unfair. *
Give me a break!