Re: Islam and marital rape...
What caught your eye? Please elaborate what you understood from my statement if you need me to calrify.
Why don't you explain what I highlighted from your post... allowed to violate? allowed to abuse?
Bro this is not what I would expect from a muslim. You are not to violate or abuse ANYTHING from what I understand from the Quran!
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Maritial rape as an offense is indistinguishable from spousal abuse in general, and so traditionalists are often baffled and confused about the seperation between the two.
True!
It's nigh impossible to even discuss the matter with traditionalists, I find, as immediately lectures on the rights of each spouse to be sexually fulfilled ensue.
Very true!!
Of course, rape isn't about sex where one partner isn't in the mood. It's sex as a form of pysiological abuse. I find the discussion progresses further if rather than treating maritial rape as something sperate from spousal abuse in general, one only talks of spousal abuse.
Yes and this is what it should be considered as I alluded to in my initial reply, but this is what sectarians find hard to digest...
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Being married does not mean you give entirely free access of your body to another. You are still ONE person. For your spouse to force themselves on you, it IS rape, married or not. Islam views any form of oppression to be worse than death. Forcing sex on the unwilling is oppression, and therefore, worse than death.
Very correct, and this is the approach to be undertaken for understanding the message of Islam.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Again, I think that forced sex and torturing your wife through sex is not allowed in Islam, and is equivalent to rape!
Yes it is not allowed and I am calling it abuse not rape. I am not saying like it is approved.
Ever considered that most women are forced not to even take khula and are repeatedly terorized one way or another? (Even when it is not khula but talaaq according to the Quran and is legal action just the way a man would seek it). Separation and divorce is for matters other than domentic violence where the wife is brutalized. Those matters could be disagreement in lifestyle, or simply not getting along... a non-violent end to a non-violent approach.
Khula and Talaaq are two different things. Khula is initiated by the woman whereas Talaaq by the man and they have different contexts. Please get your definition correct. Khula is not itself wrong if the person administering it is not applying it correctly. There could be any reason for demanding a Khula, it is not specific to relations in bed.
The Norm is the Quran. Women are not man's peoperty, spouses are garments of each other.
No one ever said they are property and the argument is both ways niether are men. When I say RIGHT it means something you are entitled to but you still need to satisfy the requirements for it.
Please concentrate on what I say and understand the comprehension in its proper context.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Yes the difference can be summed up in one word - patriarchal.
At least it is not exploiting. And you can say whatever you want. I know that it is mutual respect and coining words such as patriarchal doesn't change it. The patriarchal things is more cultural where people often miinterpret Islam so they do not have to go about changing their cultural norms.
I wouldn't, obviously. Neither would I want to be married and not eat, but I'm not going to hold a gun to my wife's head and force her to cook. You are right, it is about respect of each other's needs and desires. The need for one person to have sex should not trump the other's need to not have it at any given time. You want a sex slave? Capture one in war. You want a spouse? Treat with respect and not as an object.
So you agree with me. You can call it rape or abuse but the bottomline is its about violating ones respectful limits. The only difference is in one you were entitled to a right but you abused it and in the other you were not even entitled to the right leave alone abusing it.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Why don't you explain what I highlighted from your post... allowed to violate? allowed to abuse? Bro this is not what I would expect from a muslim. You are not to violate or abuse ANYTHING from what I understand from the Quran!
Bro, I asked what you understood from what I said and put it in a sentence. Why didn't you do that. If you would then I can clarify it. How in the world am I supposed to know what you are thinking unless you jot it down for me.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Two questions for Hypnotix-2000 and MatineeSiren:
If your wife agrees to have concentual sex with another man while you are still married to her, what would you call it?
If your wife agrees to have concentual sex with you while you are still married to her, what would you call it?
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Yes it is not allowed and I am calling it abuse not rape. I am not saying like it is approved.
I disagree... domestic violence/abuse is like any other violence/abuse. Just because it is domentic, that does not make it any less of a crime!
Khula and Talaaq are two different things. Khula is initiated by the woman whereas Talaaq by the man and they have different contexts.
From a sectarian POV yes they are different.
Please get your definition correct.
Who's telling who...
No one ever said they are property and the argument is both ways niether are men. When I say RIGHT it means something you are entitled to but you still need to satisfy the requirements for it.
I can understand your argument. You go by the traditional/Sunni method of lifestyle and as such have to abide by the traditional teaching. But I am sorry, I find this teaching grossly flawed, awefully brutal and blatently imperialistic!!
Please concentrate on what I say and understand the comprehension in its proper context.
Please do the same...
Re: Islam and marital rape...
I disagree... domestic violence/abuse is like any other violence/abuse. Just because it is domentic, that does not make it any less of a crime!
And you may disgree, I can't stop that. Who said domestic violence, we have been discussing relations of spouses here. It could be in the most domesticated or civil society or in the most brutal savage tribe as well.
From a sectarian POV yes they are different.
From a Quranic POV they are different also.
Who's telling who...
Someone has to tell you.
I can understand your argument. You go by the traditional/Sunni method of lifestyle and as such have to abide by the traditional teaching. But I am sorry, I find this teaching grossly flawed, awefully brutal and blatently imperialistic!!
Please do the same...
I don't go by any traditional argument. I go by Quran, Sunnah and my common sense.
I would like to see answer to the two questions I asked though.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
If your wife agrees to have concentual sex with another man while you are still married to her, what would you call it?
adultry
If your wife agrees to have concentual sex with you while you are still married to her, what would you call it?
"making love" .. I do not know how else to put it... sorry :?:
Now question for you USR... you want to teach your wife a lesson because she burnt your favourite shirt by mistake while ironing it. You decide to beat her up and violently force sex on her (and things like these do happen)... how would you define this act? (humour me)
Re: Islam and marital rape...
adultry
"making love" .. I do not know how else to put it... sorry :?:
So what makes one Adultry (and haram) and the other Making Love (and permissible or halal). The wife concented in both situations.
Now question for you USR... you want to teach your wife a lesson because she burnt your favourite shirt by mistake while ironing it. You decide to beat her up and violently force sex on her (and things like these do happen)... how would you define this act? (humour me)
Marital abuse. Are you amused?
Re: Islam and marital rape...
So what makes one Adultry (and haram) and the other Making Love (and permissible or halal). The wife concented in both situations.
and there is no disagreement here...
Marital abuse. Are you amused?
No I am not amused... and here is where the disagreement is... I call it RAPE!!
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Rape is defined as "any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon **a person**".
Please, define who is a person in the above definition.
Moreover explain who has defined the above definition.
[quote]
The UN now considers martial rape a human rights violation.
[/quote]
What is UN?
What is UN's resolution for the rights of those whose lands have been occupied by those who have the power of Veto?
If UN has ever taken care of rights of weaker nations then we can talk about what UN thinks of marital rape, otherwise a big NO.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
At least it is not exploiting. And you can say whatever you want. I know that it is mutual respect and coining words such as patriarchal doesn't change it. The patriarchal things is more cultural where people often miinterpret Islam so they do not have to go about changing their cultural norms.
I guess it depends on who you ask if it is exlpointing or not.
Coining words? That word and societal system are as old as the hills. Patriarchaldom (or mutual respect as you call it) is deeply embeded in the way Islam is practiced. Whether it is because of the society from which it originated or it's God's wishes to have a male dominated society is the only arguable point.
[quote]
So you agree with me. You can call it rape or abuse but the bottomline is its about violating ones respectful limits. The only difference is in one you were entitled to a right but you abused it and in the other you were not even entitled to the right leave alone abusing it.
[/quote]
It sounds like it's just a matter of sematics. To me, a marriage does mean that a couple agrees to have sex with each other, and only each other - but not on demand. Even with married couples - no means no.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
and there is no disagreement here...
No I am not amused... and here is where the disagreement is... I call it RAPE!!
No disgreement is not what I asked. Sir, you just made a statement instead of answering the question.
What I wanted to know was what makes Adukltry wrong and Making love right when in both cases it was done with the consent of the wife and in either case the man did not force herself on the woman. Please answer this.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Please, define who is a person in the above definition.
Moreover explain who has defined the above definition.
A human being. I think every dictionary defines it that way.
[quote]
What is UN?
What is UN's resolution for the rights of those whose lands have been occupied by those who have the power of Veto?
If UN has ever taken care of rights of weaker nations then we can talk about what UN thinks of marital rape, otherwise a big NO.
[/quote]
The UN has done more for human rights for weaker nations than every imam on the globe combined. They feed, clothe and provide medicine for weaker nations. They provide relief for natural disasters and for refugees. But what marital rape, lands that have been occupied, the UN and weaker nations have to do with each other is beyond me.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
I guess it depends on who you ask if it is exlpointing or not.
Coining words? That word and societal system are as old as the hills. Patriarchaldom (or mutual respect as you call it) is deeply embeded in the way Islam is practiced. Whether it is because of the society from which it originated or it's God's wishes to have a male dominated society is the only arguable point.
Just that roles in Islam given to men are those that they would naturally dominate at and the ones for women are the ones they would naturally dominate at however both can educate themselves to fit into each others roles to some extent, no denying that.
It sounds like it's just a matter of sematics. To me, a marriage does mean that a couple agrees to have sex with each other, and only each other - but not on demand. Even with married couples - no means no.
Agree with you. This is point I have been making. Marriage is what gives you the right that you can have sex with your spouse but ofcourse it has to be mutual consent and respectful of each others limits. Outside of wedlock you don't have the right to have sexual relations (not that you cannot do that) but it would be illicit.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
No disgreement is not what I asked. Sir, you just made a statement instead of answering the question.
What I wanted to know was what makes Adukltry wrong and Making love right when in both cases it was done with the consent of the wife and in either case the man did not force herself on the woman. Please answer this.
The marriage... that is the underlying factor.
For RAPE, the underlying factor is force/brutality/terror, and NOT marriage...
Re: Islam and marital rape...
The marriage... that is the underlying factor.
For RAPE, the underlying factor is force/brutality/terror, and NOT marriage...
Thank you. So its the marriage which gave the RIGHTS to even have sexual relations with your spouse in the first place and not be called an adulterer. Now if you force yourself out of consent then you are abusing that right, a RIGHT a person would not have had to begin with if it was out of wedlock and that would be called RAPE. In either case I would agree that it is not correct behavior.
Re: Islam and marital rape...
Thank you. So its the marriage which gave the RIGHTS to even have sexual relations with your spouse in the first place and not be called an adulterer.
Welcome. Yes that is correct
Now if you force yourself out of consent then you are abusing that right, a RIGHT a person would not have had to begin with if it was out of wedlock and that would be called RAPE. In either case I would agree that it is not correct behavior.
Well it is good that you do think that it is bad behaviour... but I do not think this justifies the gravity of the perpetration. It is something forced with the intention of terrorising or venting which is RAPE.
It is interesting to note that the Quran does not use the word "Zanaa bi-Jabr" ... rather the word used is RAJF: Creating Alarm, Causing to Tremble, Inciting fear, Harassing.