Wrong analogy. The prophet PBUH and Khadija **RAA **had business relation not friendship. And certainly not even close to the relationship we are discussing. Please buy some books and read.
*Learn to be respectful. * You sound like a new 'kid' on the block!
What is norm? And who is outlaw?
if whatever u think is right then why don't you break the red light on the street? Scared of being in an accident?
Same way if we believe life after and reward or punishment for our acts then we better try finding out what is the best way to avoid punishment (accient).
My wife was my girl friend for 8 years before we got married. ............ I guess it has a lot to do with up bringing as well not only religion.
Thank you for posting. The talk is about what Islam has to say for a particular act. So since you have discussed something anyway, I would say only one thing that according to islamic teachings your act was not acceptable. Off course you won't care.
Its also not about self approval. If you want to have a borfriend go ahead and have one, but please don't tell people what Islam allows and what it does not when you are not aware of Islamic principles.
and there was a post by a respected member that he had his wife as a girl friend for 8 years .. he said that he kept the moral conduct .i applaude that .let us leave the religion aside for a second and use the common sense that you cant give the guarentee for all the human being that they ll also keep that moral conduct .. they ll not be tempted .. so islam tells you to be safe at anytime .. Not like sit there and wait for crisis to hit .. We all are so used to crisis that we all play along the conditions and wait for the crisis to hit us and then we say that Allah has done nothing for me ...
Think about it how easily a """man""" is tempted for wordly pleasures and his life may not be hell here but surely is hell in the end......
peace
another thing .. i read this somewhere in a book that .. number of women in hell would be greater that number of men .. this is not to offend any female on the forum ..but if anyone can authenticate this statement..
: Between 2 persons there is a third , "SHAYTAN", its up to the person to control himself,
i'v seen many muslims who have a boy/girlfriend, even at a young age, some of them cant control themself, phir pashtate hai, i think its better for ur own to not have a girl/boy friend, if u think ur old and clever enough and u are sure u will marry her/him, then i dont think it is bad to talk with each other, but not as a girlfriend or boyfriend, but just as, you like each other and want to marry each other,
I myself dont think it is good to have a boyfriend,
Hey! I already agreed to that. I don't know why this is an issue. I am not singling out islam in any way.
Now, if your analogy is considered correct, then we should not have any organized way of learning in any matter be that religious teaching, law, science or art! .
How so? I am not arguing against systematic knowledge. Only freezing of systematic knowledge.
We are discussing strong potential of greater sin via girlfriend-boyfriend culture. And I know of no islamic scholar who would say its OK to have bf/gf in the current day sense.
There seems to be overwhelming consensus that non-marital sex is sinful. Which is not necessarily the same thing as bf/gf relationship.
BTW: Even many western societies not too long ago were skeptical of this kind of practice.
But they changed with changing economic conditions.
Muslim scholars are still repeating thousand year old rulings without accounting for changing realities.
First of all, not everyone who talks about Islam or Religion is a Mullah and fundamentalist. We should think about what someone is saying NOT who is saying it.
Second, in your opinion, do you think the changing economical dynamics have affected human life in a positive way or negative way. What are the effects of such changes on human lives.
In order to justify your point about Muslims scholars preaching 1000 years old things, you have to prove that the changes brought about in human life after 1000 years are beneficial than those that were brough about 1000 years ago.
In order to justify your point about Muslims scholars preaching 1000 years old things, you have to prove that the changes brought about in human life after 1000 years are beneficial than those that were brough about 1000 years ago.
Whether life has changed for better or worse is a separate issue. What is important is things HAVE changed and there is NO going back. We cannot live as if we were still in the Middle Ages. Muslim scholars have not sufficiently come to terms with these changes yet.
By religion I meant Islam, but off course you had to jump the gun.
What did you not like in my post in response to your post? You said you 'understand' you did not say you 'agreed' and tried to preach your way of thinking which is not even part of the discussion, so I said what would be the logical response.
I am perfectly alright to take back what I said hurt your feelings.
Your argument of difference in interpretation is only against islam...Thats why.
if its a matter of differences in interpretaion then it applies to many other walks of life.
What do you call freezing of knowledge? If you are trying to point to Islamic values, then again you are not correct since even after 1000 years, illegitimate sex (and anything which can and by overwhelming evidence has led to illegitimate sexual activity) is still considered wrong.
Where is the phenomenon of 'freezing' of systematic knowledge here?
Should we consider legitimizing cheating, hurting people emotionally or physically since these 'morals' are over thousand years old and muslim scholars are just not "up to date"......??
I think you know and we know as well, that there is 'overwhelming consensus' that bf/gf MEANS having intimate relation at a superficial or even at deep level.
So trying to come up with this kind of reason is only fooling ourself.
Exceptions are always there but exceptions are always rare! Got it?
(Wow, this sentence rhymes pretty good :) )
What does this have to do with 'economic conditions' ?
Morality will always be same in terms of the religion, regardless of 'economic conditions'.
Either we admit we follow the religion or simply say we don't. We can't have it both ways.
When its convenient we say we do follow religion and when its the time to make a moral decision we find excuses.
Wrong analogy. The prophet PBUH and Khadija **RAA **had business relation not friendship. And certainly not even close to the relationship we are discussing. Please buy some books and read.).
The purpose of having a BF an a GF relationship to get to know a person better be4 u tie the knots... thats exactly what they did... Hence its not a wrong analogy... I do read books and try and understand them.. Maybe u should do the same .... Try and make sense out of what u read and implement it in ur lfie...
**Learn to be respectful. **You sound like a new 'kid' on the block!.).
Thats my experience with them... I will respect someone who deserves to be respected... As for me.. YES MOST OF THEM ARE MORONS
What is norm? And who is outlaw?
if whatever u think is right then why don't you break the red light on the street? Scared of being in an accident?.).
Now thats a wrong analogy... I am not even gona bother to waste my time on this anymore!
Note: If i sound like a new Kid on the block to u .... Your approach doesnt seem and better to me either!
I am not sure what you are saying here. That religion should be flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances without diluting its fundamentals something that is applicable to all religions not just Islam. In modern times, however, it is the muslims who have shown the most inflexibility.
What do you call freezing of knowledge?
Freezing of knowledge is what traditionally has been called "closing the doors of ijtihad" . It is not about giving up of fundamental priniciples. But being flexible in implementing those priinciples.
If you are trying to point to Islamic values, then again you are not correct since even after 1000 years, illegitimate sex (and anything which can and by overwhelming evidence has led to illegitimate sexual activity) is still considered wrong.
Where is the phenomenon of 'freezing' of systematic knowledge here?
What kind of things can lead to illegitimate sexual activity is not a fact cast in stone but changes with cultural situations. Some may argue that segregation and repression may lead to greater illegitmate sexual behaviour. In some societies women are completely segregated because even a woman's voice can be said to eventually lead to illegitmate sex. Also, things are not always black and white. Even if greater interaction between genders may lead to some increase in illegitimate sex, this has to be balanced against the benefits achieved.
Should we consider legitimizing cheating, hurting people emotionally or physically since these 'morals' are over thousand years old and muslim scholars are just not "up to date"......??
Of course not! As I said, it is not about changing fudamental pricniples but about being flexible in implementation.
Btw, do you think bf/gf relationships are about cheating and hurting people?
I think you know and we know as well, that there is 'overwhelming consensus' that bf/gf MEANS having intimate relation at a superficial or even at deep level.
Plenty of posters on this thread have pointed out that bf/gf relationship does not necessarily mean sexual activity.
What does this have to do with 'economic conditions' ?
Morality will always be same in terms of the religion, regardless of 'economic conditions'.
Well, look at this example. Why has there been an increase in pre-marital sexual relations in modern times? In pre-industrial societies people would get married soon after puberty because they were ready to support themselves and their family. The economy was much simpler . Post-industrial economy is much more complex and requires more training and education to survive. People usually are not ready to support a family till late twenties. Celibacy for 15-20 yrs after puberty became an unnatural burden. Eventually the old norms broke down and new kind of relationships became common. The Christian churches resisted the change initially and as a result lost their authority and relevancy. We see the same thing happening in muslim societies now. What you will probably call a breakdown of values in places like Karachi and Lahore is actually a failure of society and religious authorities to come to terms with changes in conditions.
So I should have agreed with your childish comment (based on the topic we are discussing) that gf/bf are 'cool' according to islam!
This purpose has been tried and many times it has failed.
Yes prior to marriage boy and girl need to know each other but either you are acting naive or are really naive not to understand the meaning of bf/gf relation as it is understood these days.
Which book did you read which told you that the Prophet PBUH and Khadija RAA had similar relation like the gf/bf (Nauz-Billah) And which islamic book did you read which taught you to write their names without respect?
Please read books and then talk on serious topics. Perhaps you can give our opinion on other 'cool' topics and we will join you there.:)
What experience did you have with 'them' and how many?
Your sentence is bonafide moronic.
You wrote a sentence on this analogy and then said you are not gonna bother...........!!?
Read above why I called you new 'kid'............... besides who would name himself Hahahaha! ?
Should I ask you Hahahaha, how are you?
Please give solid statements besides using 'cool' terms.
