Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

[deedawar]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@krash

I am not sure what you are saying here. That religion should be flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances without diluting its fundamentals something that is applicable to all religions not just Islam. In modern times, however, it is the muslims who have shown the most inflexibility. .

No. Not at all. You may say its most muslims, who still want to keep the moral values alive. Others and some other muslims have changed the meaning of 'morals' for convenience.

@krash

Freezing of knowledge is what traditionally has been called "closing the doors of ijtihad" . It is not about giving up of fundamental priniciples. But being flexible in implementing those priinciples..

Agreed.

Just to elaborate a bit further, ijtehad must be done but ijtehad is a collective decision which can only be done by islamic scholars on situations where it is almost impossible to follow older rules which are NOT BASIC VALUES. Illegitimate sex cannot be allowed at leat you would agree to that. Now, You will say gf/bf culture does not necessarily mean illegitimate sex is going to happen for sure.............so I would say yes it does gradually, and before we even know it will become the 'norm'. thats how it was started in other societies my friend. No society said we would have bf/gf culture so they can have sex out of wedlock..but if you are aware of the world and not just an 'idealistic' person then you know there will be more chances of illigetimate sex if we have gf/bf culture. Come on its a simple logic hope you get it.

Remember prohibited acts always become 'norm', gradually and without concious effort.

First full sleeve, then half sleeve, then no sleeve and then no shirt at all...we see it on TV/movies don't we?

@krash

What kind of things can lead to illegitimate sexual activity is not a fact cast in stone but changes with cultural situations. Some may argue that segregation and repression may lead to greater illegitmate sexual behaviour. In some societies women are completely segregated because even a woman's voice can be said to eventually lead to illegitmate sex. Also, things are not always black and white. Even if greater interaction between genders may lead to some increase in illegitimate sex, this has to be balanced against the benefits achieved..

Read above.

@krash

Of course not! As I said, it is not about changing fudamental pricniples but about being flexible in implementation. Btw, do you think bf/gf relationships are about cheating and hurting people?.

Sure it does lead to hurting and cheating. Which world are you living in sir?

A girl end up breaking her heart more than the man.

These relations may not last long since they are commonly started with physical attraction, then emotional attachments and then expectations of further advancement develop, then many times acievement of intimacy and fulfilling the desires.... and boom!!!!!!!! one partner (mostly man) says I don't love you anymore! OR I never loved you baby! OR Who said I loved you?

Girl would say...but you led me on.
He would say..it was all your fault!
She would say get out of my life...he will smile and will leave with happiness......!!
Then the cycle continues!

I know I dramatized it but isn't it we are seeing these days already???

@krash

Plenty of posters on this thread have pointed out that bf/gf relationship does not necessarily mean sexual activity. .

Yes thats how it is started! Allah and islam are much smarter than few people who try to fool themselves with words.

@krash

Well, look at this example. Why has there been an increase in pre-marital sexual relations in modern times? In pre-industrial societies people would get married soon after puberty because they were ready to support themselves and their family. The economy was much simpler . Post-industrial economy is much more complex and requires more training and education to survive. People usually are not ready to support a family till late twenties. Celibacy for 15-20 yrs after puberty became an unnatural burden. Eventually the old norms broke down and new kind of relationships became common. The Christian churches resisted the change initially and as a result lost their authority and relevancy. We see the same thing happening in muslim societies now. What you will probably call a breakdown of values in places like Karachi and Lahore is actually a failure of society and religious authorities to come to terms with changes in conditions.

You just admitted that pre-marital sex has increased these days. So why argue further? Perhaps people are better off going to the basics and hold morality as their judge not the economy!

yes in these days its dificult to get married early since 'requirements' are high.

So how about reducing the requirements also? Why should there be a requirement to have a 1000 yard banglow and Toyota Corrolla or 30 gold sets or whatever to get married? I know these may be extreme examples but the point is that whatever one can achieve without sacrificing the basic rules then that should be alright to get married.

bf/gf relation is still not required to be married. Discussion on phone-internet or in public places with the knowledge of parents etc. is quite OK.

Adults may appoint other friendly adult to be the mediators and it happens all the time.

Interestingly, someone mentioned about 8 years of relation before marriage, I know another 8 years of relation like bf/gf and as soon they got married man asked for divorce and the woman cried why did he even get married in first place!

[Lahore_981]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@krash

Whether life has changed for better or worse is a separate issue. What is important is things HAVE changed and there is NO going back. We cannot live as if we were still in the Middle Ages. Muslim scholars have not sufficiently come to terms with these changes yet.

Just an empty argument. You cannot separate things like you appear to do in this paragraph.

I'd say, go and open a sociology book, open Quran, study in depth the philosophy of life and family structure in Quran, the family system of Islam and extrapolate it to the time today, open the Ahadith and read them, read about the natural depands of human race and the concept of balance. Most important, interpret these sources in todays time, truth will unveil in front of you.

Or else if you cannot commit to Islam properly them quit it.

"Modesty" in human was there since the creation of Adam and Eve. They were made a husband and wife for each other, how come today some fanatics stand up and declare their own dictum of legalizing bf/gf in the name of changing human values, like you did.

Besides, I believe Deedawar had answered your posts very well.

[Lahore_981]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@deedawar

You just admitted that pre-marital sex has increased these days. So why argue further? Perhaps people are better off going to the basics and hold morality as their judge not the economy!

yes in these days its dificult to get married early since 'requirements' are high.

So how about reducing the requirements also? Why should there be a requirement to have a 1000 yard banglow and Toyota Corrolla or 30 gold sets or whatever to get married? I know these may be extreme examples but the point is that whatever one can achieve without sacrificing the basic rules then that should be alright to get married.

bf/gf relation is still not required to be married. Discussion on phone-internet or in public places with the knowledge of parents etc. is quite OK.

Adults may appoint other friendly adult to be the mediators and it happens all the time.

Interestingly, someone mentioned about 8 years of relation before marriage, I know another 8 years of relation like bf/gf and as soon they got married man asked for divorce and the woman cried why did he even get married in first place!

Excellent reply Deedawar.
You see the realities behind, you have the vision.
These are the fruits of the economical constraints and the benefit is being taken by the few people who want to suck up the wealth in their own hands. This is a good weapon of them to destroy the family structure and take the benefit of it.

[krash]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

deedawar, Lahore981

Well at least we all seem to agree that current conditions need to be taken in account when interpreting religion and some interpretations can change over time.
We are just disagreeing over specifics in this matter.

[Faz786]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

having a gf or bf in islam is not allowed theres no two ways about it!

[Lahore_981]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

krash,

It is the need of the time to interpret Islam in the current times and prove its applicability for today and for the future. I agree with that.

But it DOES NOT mean changing the basic principles. I do not understand how we can interpret the bf/gf relation is conformity with Islam when it collides with a very basic hardcore Islamic rulling of relationing between a man and a women.

I believe, Deedawar and me both are being misled by your words (I am not sure if you mean it or not). My comments are not directed at you but at the idea of bf/gf.....

Peace.

[deedawar]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@Lahore 981

Excellent reply Deedawar. You see the realities behind, you have the vision. These are the fruits of the economical constraints and the benefit is being taken by the few people who want to suck up the wealth in their own hands. This is a good weapon of them to destroy the family structure and take the benefit of it.

Thank you very much. I think we all are students and learning from each other.

I agree with you that gradually the citizens of the world have succumbed to financial greed and have lost the basic rules of morality along the way like family structure and nurturing our offsprings to become the true role models.

People now are more busy in life to satisfy financial greed than looking after their children. So result is that children have no respect for their parents and their opinions and many are brought up as 'punk', 'losers', 'bum' or............bf/gf.

[deedawar]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@krash

deedawar, Lahore981

Well at least we all seem to agree that current conditions need to be taken in account when interpreting religion and some interpretations can change over time. We are just disagreeing over specifics in this matter.

Sure, I agree with you completely that we need reform and one of my post above did mention this. Like Lahore981 I will say same that basics must stay same.

Having bf/gf culture is by any means and absolutely against islamic teachings (and many other orthodox religious teachings) since there is mor harm than benefit.

[deedawar]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@Lahore 981

krash,

It is the need of the time to interpret Islam in the current times and prove its applicability for today and for the future. I agree with that.

But it DOES NOT mean changing the basic principles. I do not understand how we can interpret the bf/gf relation is conformity with Islam when it collides with a very basic hardcore Islamic rulling of relationing between a man and a women.

I believe, Deedawar and me both are being misled by your words (I am not sure if you mean it or not). My comments are not directed at you but at the idea of bf/gf.....

Peace.

Same as above.

[deedawar]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

Reminder in short:

Is bf/gf culture Islamic?

Is platonic relation possible between man and a woman?

[krash]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@deedawar

Sure, I agree with you completely that we need reform and one of my post above did mention this. Like Lahore981 I will say same that basics must stay same.

Yes, exactly. As I said earlier , this is where we all agree.

@deedawar

Having bf/gf culture is by any means and absolutely against islamic teachings (and many other orthodox religious teachings) since there is mor harm than benefit.

This where we disagree.
I believe that some form of bf/gf culture (not necessarily as practiced today in the West) may not be against basic pirnciples of Islam and may actually do more good than harm.

[deedawar]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@krash

This where we disagree. I believe that some form of bf/gf culture (not necessarily as practiced today in the West) may not be against basic pirnciples of Islam and may actually do more good than harm.

We disagree big time dear.

If you define 'some form of bf/gf culture' then I may get your idea better.

But didn't you read my earlier post where I suggested that it all starts AS AN INNOCENT AND HARMLESS ACT!?

Its a slippery slope my friend where once you got on the slippery slide, even you with all your wisdom will not be able to stop the prohibited acts in future.

That is why Islam fore-warned mixing men and women in privacy since Allah knows best his people.

Your ( and many other similar people's ) biggest problem is that you want to ride in two boats at the same time!

You want to be called a 'modern' society member but still want to acknowledge the basic rules. I feel for you. But reality is that one has to commit to the basic rules and be clear on it.

Either one agrees with Islamic rules or one does not. No two ways about it.

[krash]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@deedawar

We disagree big time dear.

If you define 'some form of bf/gf culture' then I may get your idea better.

But didn't you read my earlier post where I suggested that it all starts AS AN INNOCENT AND HARMLESS ACT!?

Its a slippery slope my friend where once you got on the slippery slide, even you with all your wisdom will not be able to stop the prohibited acts in future.

[quote]

The slippery slope argument can be taken too far. Where does the slippery slope start? From a look? Hearing a voice? Shaking hands?

[quote=deedawar]

That is why Islam fore-warned mixing men and women in privacy since Allah knows best his people.

The warning means proper care is required. And just because some people may commit mistakes is not a reason that all should suffer. Some people drive rashly. We don't ban all drivers.

@deedawar

Your ( and many other similar people's ) biggest problem is that you want to ride in two boats at the same time!

You want to be called a 'modern' society member but still want to acknowledge the basic rules. I feel for you. But reality is that one has to commit to the basic rules and be clear on it.

Either one agrees with Islamic rules or one does not. No two ways about it.

This is a rather arrogant attitude. It implies that,

1. Basic rules are laid out in a checklist format.
2. The checklist is undisputed Word of God and not human interpretation.
3. People like yourself fully know the checklist.
4. Anybody who questions any item on the checklist is a hypocrite who is trying to pick and choose according to his whims.
5. All a good muslim has to do is to look at the checklist, and if he agrees with everything on it, put his brain on suspend mode and start following it to the letter.

[Dushwari]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

theekh khee raheye hein aap.

nawazish.

@deedawar

yes it does. You did make sense on many points.

Your discussion was mainly giving the message that purity of relation can happen and hence it is Ok to have 'platonic' relation. Your point if I got it correct is that bad things do not happen as commonly so its Ok to have these kind of relations.

I say intimate relation or 'intention' to have intimate relation is more common than platonic relation.

Even if on the surface we see two compatible opposite sex persons engaged in platonic relation................expectation for intimacy is there most likely from male side. But female partner also has hidden intent that someday 'he' will either propose or advance this relation!

One thing I must add.... unfortunately the loser of these relations, most commonly......... is the female partner!

[deedawar]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@Dushwari

theekh khee raheye hein aap.

nawazish.

Shukriyah Aap Kaa.

[deedawar]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

[quote=krash
The slippery slope argument can be taken..................and start following it to the letter.[/quote]

I am pretty sure you have problem understanding written english.
There in no compromise on basic teachings.

Read some islamic books by many different writers of islam and hope ou will get to the point were we can even begin to discuss.

Just one thing, for thousand of years people accepted islamic ideas and welcomed just because it is so close to logical thinking. Problem occurs when we start adding subtracting from the moral principles just to satisfy our needs.

I am sorry that you have a long way to go before you can comprehend or grasp the concept of this topic sir.

[symbol]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

please listen to following lecture on dating by imam abdul malik…its short, only 23 minutes

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8730519272544183474

[Afridi786]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

thanks alot symbol, i've never heard anything about dating except for that its haram, finally sum1 talks about the subject in the realistic and islamic manner.

[deedawar]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

@symbol

please listen to following lecture on dating by imam abdul malik…its short, only 23 minutes

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8730519272544183474

The respectable Imam spent most of talk discussing the need for people to get married. True.

He advised people to be prepared for marriage.

He did say dating game is wrong and is like palying with fire.

He was against parents not letting their kids married tillthey get highest
education.

He discussed the role of huband and wives.

He discussed parents to be role model for kids so they do not run away from religion and marriage/family life.

He discussed hypocrisy of husbands in regards to their wives dress code.

So in essence his talk is based on many different aspects but not completely related to the topic.

Thanks for sharing though. I appreciate it.

[krash]

Re: Islam and Girlfriend or Boyfriend

deedawar,

Well, since we are repeating ourselves now , I guess we have nothing else to say. Let's agree to disagree on this issue.

What had ticked me off was that you had seemed to imply that because I disagreed with you I must have some kind of a "problem", and my only choice is to either accept your view or leave Islam altogether.
I hope you didn't mean that and it was just my "poor english comprehension".

Best wishes! See you elsewhere on Gupshup!