ISI's dirty war against Pakistan

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

The world is changing. China and Russia are getting ready to knock America down. And you see they are not alone; North Korea, Iran and now Pakistan is also coming up. America will doom! And with America the new girlfriend India will also be drowned in the Indian Ocean.

State of the Union: Trump warns China, Russia challenge American values
State of the Union: Trump warns China, Russia challenge American values, United States News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

Hindus of India are narrow minded extremists generally. That’s why learned scholars and liberal politicians like Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Muhammad Ali Jinnah followed the Two Nation Theory. We saw the true colours of these extremist Hindus in great Calcutta killings and in the partition genocide. Partition violence proved Sir Syed and Jinnah were right. Communal riots were already common in India during the British rule. Congress claimed it was secular but when it ran its ministries in 1937 to 1939 it proved it was a Hindu brand in the wrapper of secularism. They demolished Baburi Masjid and killed Muslims, they killed a couple of thousand Muslims in Gujrat and are still lynching them to death.

The whole of India has turned extremist, that’s why they elected an extremist terrorist Modi, the Butcher of Gujrat. Bajirao Mastani, Padmavati etc and other Bollywood productions are also fanning hatred for Muslims and instigating Hindu extremists to attack Muslims and suppress them. There are Hindu groups who vow to convert Muslims ‘back’ to their original faith ‘Hinduism’. And you want us to reject the partition of 1947. **Sorry we don’t want to live with these narrow minded freaks of India. We don’t only want Indian held Kashmir to be liberated but we want one more Pakistan within present India for the 200 million Muslims. India is not showing tolerance for Muslims anymore. **

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

Two Nation Theory is still hurting you, you should buy some more pains from these 300 separatist movements in India:

Bodoland And The Separatist Movements Of Northeast India

I knew there were a number of separatist movements in India before we arrived. However, it wasn’t until after we’d been there that I realized how intense some of these conflicts are and simply how many of them there are. One estimate we were given indicated that there are over 300 different separatist movements in India, with the overwhelming majority being in the Northeast.

**It means that there are many people in the present India who do not want to live with these narrow minded Hindu extremists who believe in a caste system and treat other human beings like animals. **

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

So 2 Nation theory was wrong. Its either many many nations or 1 nation as it can be deduced from these separatist movements. Add few in Pakistan to this, however, did any of these movements resulted in butchering of 70,000 muslims at the hands of other muslims ? dont think so, so how 2 nation theory on basis of religion appears to be farce. Yes, there are many nations based on ethnicity but thats a different convo which also should happen. For example, here in Pakistan, is it better ot have 4-5 smaller independant countries vs. one muslim country, etc. etc.

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So Hindus are narrow minded, hmm, what about our very own Mododi, Qadri, Sipah Sahaba, peoiple who burned Christian couple to death, etc. etc. ? they must be very broad minded right, i mean it takes really broad mind to go and kill a poor couple by burning them or shoot 150 kids in schools. Whom you kidding bro ?

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

Who is this WE? Sunni Punjabi Male / Femals ? because sure as hell Pakistan aint a safe place for Shia or Ahmadies or Christians or others. Even with in Sunni sect, it seems Deobandi vs. Barelvi only one can survive. So again WHO is this “WE” I know as Sunni Punjabi male, I am totally free in Pakistan but what about my Baluchi friends, whats the number, close to 1,000 young men murdered or is it more ? If Bugti Sahab was not spared, who else. So again, who is this “WE” ?

Sorry but Kashmir boat has sailed, Its part of India and nothing will change it. Hurts to say it but its time to move on. I know quite a few Kashjmiries from other side who have now kids and families and they are moving on as well. They have better future there. Simply put Kashmir will NEVER every be part of pakistan. Converting LOC to international border is only way forward to keep what we have. This is the reality, accept it or not, doesnt matter.

Finally, is Pakistan showing tolerance towards muslims ? 70,000 muslims / 150 kids in APS / Hazara Shias in Quetta (do a google of hazara community quetta and see Gore). That is some tolerance, oh I forgot Ahmadies and Christians, they are treated so well right and tolerated.

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

Good post and valid point. Yes in case of United India, the Punjabies wont be dominating. Does it bother me? Hell No. Thats my point for analysis. Would be a large heterogenous society like United India not good for smaller communities as no one would have decisive majority on ethnic basis and on religion basis, 60% to 40% would be almost wash. Wouldnt it be better for all underlaying sub communities ?

Yes, its 2 million or more Punjabies (muslims, sikhs, hindus) that were butchered in Partition. To me they were all people who paid the price for something that probably is flawed.

You are slightly wrong about Chaudhry and entirely wrong about Patwari. Actually, Custodian dept alloted lands to mostly migrants from UP. Byt in any case, yes the few that became landowners after partition wouldnt become one, does it bother me, again Heck No. As for Patwari, it used be most respected individual in a village setting responsible for settling land matters generally chosen by locals, etc. There was not much to gain from being Patwari and in context of this discussion, yes some wouldnt have gained what they did after partition, again, a meaningless thing.

Overall, I think 2 million less Punjabies Slauthered, a larger united country with muslims to the tune of 40% would be better for “Muslim” nation of failed 2 nation theory. On ethnic side, not having one large decisive ethnic majority would be good for every one else.

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

This is why blind patriotism and stanning for other countries goes nowhere. At this point there really isn’t time to think of “What if?” scenarios for if there was no partition because partition and all the events that happened afterwards already happened. These India v. Pakistan stan wars are useless. Pakistan definitely isn’t in good shape (the understatement of the century) but many of the problems Pakistan has can be applied to India as well. What is the point in acting as if the united subcontinent would be some la la land (or anything better than what we have now)? You really think religious violence or sectarianism wouldn’t have affected a united subcontinent?

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

How can you say that ? Indian treatment of Kashmiries todays is result of a proxy freedom war. There wouldnt be a freedom war in United India to begin with, there wouldnt be Gibraltars, etc. The alternate relaity of United India has totally different dynamics. How about this, would Baluchies be treated same as they are treated today by our Army in United India, chances are No because the grievences they have probably wouldnt have happened as smaller ethnicities would not have one true dominante ethnicity taking their resources. Go back to 1971, would operation Searchlight, massacare of Bengalie scholars by muslim army of pakistan would have happened in United India or retaliation genocide of bengali muslims on Western origin muslims/Paksitanies. Likely answer is NO on all these.

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I really do think the religion extremism wouldnt be the case in United India because the roots of Secretarian violence are in hands of Pakistan Army and its desire to enslave / control country of 70 years. This is where the cancer started.

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I guess conversation did mushroom where it didnt need to be but getting back to the OP, we need to understand why ISI / Pak Army has created a class of its own who is above any accountability and why they cant not accept choice of people and why does it make them inferior by taking orders from elected civilian governments ?

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A lot of issues in the subcontinent aren’t created in a vacuum. A United India would be a large landmass with many people who just got out of the British Empire. Basically, a developing country. If everything stayed the same except a partition in the subcontinent there would still be the Cold War situation where the US and Russia would be going around trying to influence smaller, weaker countries to be on one side or the other. A lot of the religious extremism that affects Pakistan today isn’t only because of events in the country. Muslims all over the world are being indoctrinated into this nonsense. On top of that, in your dream world there is going to be a country made up of ethnic groups and religions that have not had the best history with each other. Is there really going to be no conflict then? Look at many countries in Africa that were created in the post-colonial period. Maybe the issues that are present today would not have made an appearance in the exact same way, but there is a very little chance that after the goray left the subcontinent that everything would go to la la land. That is too optimistic of an outlook considering that the subcontinent would not exist isolated from the rest of the world.

This isn’t even addressing the extremism and separatist movements going on in India that other users have brought up. I get being disenchanted by the state of Pakistan today and what Pakistan has done in the past, but I highly doubt there could have been any good situation in the post colonial period for the subcontinent.

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**The above shows your ignorance of history and facts. Today India is a country of 1.32 billion and is a hub of narrow mindedness and religious extremism.
**
Hindu extremism has nothing to do with Pakistan or Pak Army. Hindu extremists have been intolerant towards all people, even their own low caste Hindus:

How to address the plight of India’s Dalits?

Monday marked 69 years of Indian independence. But millions of Indian citizens say they are still not free.

Four so-called “lower-caste” men in the state of Gujarat were stripped and flogged for doing what many say was their job. In response, hundreds of people started a protest.

How to address the plight of India’s Dalits? | Asia | Al Jazeera

Pakistan is also not responsible for the plight of Christians in India:

WHY CHRISTIANS IN INDIA ARE FACING MORE DANGER THAN EVER

In the past, the BJP supported extremist groups that attacked Christians in incidents such as the 2007-2008 riots where Hindu militants torched houses and churches, killing 91 Christians and wounding 18,000 others. 60,000 Christians were left homeless.

In 2013, 100 churches or worship gatherings were attacked and acts of violence were committed against 4,000 Christians.

Perhaps just as alarming as the attacks is that when India’s now Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, was asked about Christian persecution, he responded, “I have never heard of such incidents taking place.”

In 2016, the All India Christian Council recorded an almost 20% increase in attacks against Christians, reporting a 40% rise in violence against Christians. They also found killings of Christians had doubled.

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/stories/christians-india-facing-danger-ever/

**Conclusion: India is loaded with narrow minded Hindu extremists who are now in power under the Butcher of Gujrat. Pakistan is far more better country than India as here no extremists can come to power. Pakistanis don’t elect extremists and terrorists as their Prime Ministers. **

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

And what is the reason of Indian treatment of Dalits and Christians? Which proxy wars?

So those 300 separatist movements are in Disunited India?

You and your imaginations.

Operation Searchlight was wrong. In United India, Hindus started this from the Great Calcutta killings in 1946.

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

Once again the above is based on your ignorance of facts.

Pakistan’s founding fathers were shias (Jinnah, Liaquat Ali Khan). Iskandar Mirza was shia, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Gen. Yahya Khan, Benazir Bhutto, Zardari were shias. Pakistanis are very broadminded people. They are not narrow-minded like Indian Hindu extremists.

Christians are not attacked in Pakistan the way they are persecuted in India. There are only a few incidents that are not part of an organised campaign. Ahmadiyya are a totally different case. They are hostile to our Prophet, our religion, and so they are outcast.

Now this one is a very stupid and lame statement besides other generally lame arguments from your side.

Did some Hindu jotshi give this prediction to you?

These people were killed because of American and Indian sponsorship of terrorism in Pakistan.

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Accept that you have no more arguments left in your bag of foolishness.

Two Nation Theory meant Muslims were different from the majority Hindus combined with other Non-Muslims.

This theory broke India in 1947. This theory didn’t merge Bangladesh with West Bengal in 1971 (if Bengalis hadn’t believed in Two Nation Theory, they would have rejoined with West Bengal/India in 1971). The same theory divided Punjab in East and West in 1947 :slight_smile:

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Re: ISI’s dirty war against Pakistan

A sign of your defeat. You don’t have any stand to maintain your false claims. You were never able to substantiate them with evidences; all the time you repeated yourself, two nation theory, 70,000 killed, Kashmir is for India lol.

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Huh ? Ok dude if that floats your boat. These are not claims these were thought experiments that should be discussed and yes 2 nation theory faield in 71, over 70,000 of our brothers and sisters have been butchered and Kashmir will never ever be part of Pakistan ever. The first two are facts, the third one is perputal reality, I can promise you this reality will stay as is in your life time and your next generations life time. Sue me if anything changes, you can have half of my estate.

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So if muslims were different than how come Bangladesh came in to existence, why there is a Baluchi separatist movement, why 70,000 muslims got butchered in Islamic Nation of Pakistan resulting from 2 nation theory. I dont think you have every answered any thing.

In your blurbs you forgot that Theory was FAILED in 1971 with a New nation of Bangladesh.

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Are you living in alternate reality or something ? What treatment of Dalits and Christians in India? Is it any different than how Christians and Hindus and Admedies are treated in Pakistan ?

300 separatist movements are like Jiye Sindh movement, that are every where from example Free Alaska movement here in the US. On separation that happened was in 1971. Otherwise gotta talk about Baluchi sepratist movement along side these 300.

Great Calcutta killings was early gift of 2 nation theory or first sign of creating artificial nations.