Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace All,

[note]
This thread is about “Isa a.s. - Quran and his second coming”, so please stay on topic plz. Otherwise thread will be locked. Discussion of Brother Kchughtai and Psyah have valid points so stay with them.
[/note]

:jazak:

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Allah has set laws and runs the universe according to those laws, anyhow, your claim that Allah is bounded by his laws, by interpreting statement ‘You will not see any change in Allah’s ways (17:77)’ is completely wrong, as that statement only refers to general rules but not rules for specific occasions. Allah is neither bounded by laws he made nor is he obliged to follow those laws. That is why we see many miracles mentioned in Quran, and whenever miracle happens natural laws get violated. It means, if one takes ayah 17:77 literally for everything then the ayah becomes contradictory to many ayahs of Quran that talks about miracles [from stick of Musa (AS) to birth of Isa (AS)].

[quote]
You're pretty much following what I'm following. Except you assume fatwa of kufr will be charged and we're living with the fatwa of kufr. But should the followers of Messiah worry about what majority of Muslims believe in ? nope.

It is a very dangerous charge not on Isa(as) but allah almighty to say that His mission was incomplete. No prophet was sent to humankind without any mission. Allah give them enough life for their mission to complete. You cannot show from anywhere if nauzubillah his mission went incomplete. His birth was a test to humankind, and his prophethood was a test to people. Prophethood is always a test for people..only pious people from heart accept prophets.
[/quote]

What serious charge? I believe that Isa (AS) mission in his first coming was incomplete (as planned by Allah), that would get completed on his second coming (as planned by Allah). Anyhow, if you think Isa (AS) completed his mission, then can you please write down the mission of Isa (AS) in his first coming, and how it got completed?

[quote]
It is the prophets that bring shariat. Yes i believe Jesus(as) would need to learn Islam , Quran and the shariat. He was before Islam. Islam was after him. He is not given the knowledge of Islam. He will need to learn it. If he learns from Allah, then your belief that there is no form of revelation after Muhammad PBUH is contradictory.
[/quote]

Islam and laws of Islam belongs to Allah, and not to any prophet (AS). Humans (in spiritual form) were told everything about laws when Allah told to Adam (AS) at the time of his creation. Prophets are reminders of laws, and not giver of laws. All Prophets have knowledge of Islam from Allah and their knowledge is not time dependent. Well, that is my belief.

Just look at prayer of Ibrahim (AS) to see that what prophets bring, it is not theirs but whatever they brings belongs to Allah.

2:129 ... Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.

Clearly shows what Prophets do? They recite to people communications of Allah. So, it means, what prophets give to people do not belongs to them, but belongs to Allah.

As for Isa (AS) learning Quran: ... Read the ayah:

5:110 ... Ith qala Allahu yaAAeesa ibna maryama othkur niAAmatee AAalaykawaAAala walidatika ith ayyadtuka biroohialqudusi tukallimu annasa fee almahdi wakahlan wa-ith **AAallamtuka alkitaba wal hikma ta wat tawrata wal-injeela **wa-ithtakhluqu mina atteeni kahay-ati attayribi-ithnee fatanfukhu feeha fatakoonu tayranbi-ithnee watubri-o al-akmaha wal-abrasabi-ithnee wa-ith tukhriju almawta bi-ithneewa-ith kafaftu banee isra-eela AAanka ithji/tahum bilbayyinati faqala allatheenakafaroo minhum in hatha illa sihrun mubeen

Allah will say to Isa (AS): ... I taught thee ‘The Kitab-ul-Hikmah’, and ‘The Tawrah’ and the ‘The Ingeel’.

Note: In Quran, Allah referred to Quran as ‘Kitab-ul-Hikmah’.

Above ayah shows that Allah not only taught Isa (AS) ‘Torah’ and ‘Injeel’ but also ‘Kitab-ul-Hikmah’.

[quote]
Isa (as) was, is and will always remain a prophet wheresoever he may be. There are fatawas of your scholars saying that whoever says Jesus upon his second coming is not a prophet is indeed a kafir. Yes, to adjust ur belief of khatm e nabuwat, you have to also fit ur belief of Jesus (as) alive.. so thats twisting facts right there.
[/quote]

Takfeeri scholars are kharjees. So, who cares about those who would go to hell?

Anyhow, no one is denying that Isa (AS) in essence would be Prophet always. Isa (AS) would not be Prophet in his second coming, not because in essence he is not prophet, but because he would not declare himself Prophet.

As for me twisting facts, I believe I am not, rather I believe I am writing everything straight and clear. :)

[quote]
Prophet Isa(as) is sent to bani israel. Thats how Allah address him in Quran. To believe that Isa(as) would do things not even Muhammad PBUH could do is just a good imagination. Jesus(as) cannot be a prophet or even an ordinary human in Muhammadi shariyah.

Isa(as) is and will remain a prophet sent to bani israel. Quran is unchangeable till qayamah. Upon his second coming, the verses that call him prophet sent to bani israel wont be taken out ..nauzubillah.
[/quote]

Why Isa (AS) could not be a Muslim, a follower of Prophet (SAW)? Any reason or it is your imagination?

Allah called him Prophet of Bani-Israel as he was prophet of Bani-Israel. Allah did not call him Prophet of ummat-e-Muhammad (SAW) because he would not be Prophet in his second appearance. So what troubles you, and why?

[quote]
wrong example. Just because a science teacher sat in a math class would not make him give up his teaching degree. He is good in science and the other person is good in maths.. students can ask him any question in regards to science.. he can learn maths too.. no problem.. but he'll still be a teacher of different subject.. same with Jesus.. He is a teacher for Bible, not Quran.
[/quote]

No, I do not think my example was wrong. Maybe you misunderstood me. Anyhow, let me give you another example that may be easy for you to understand.

Let say ‘A’ was teacher of maths. After retirement he joined computer class as student. So, in computer class, ‘A’ would be student and not teacher. In similar way:

Isa (AS) was Prophet of Bani-Israel. After finishing his job as prophet of Bani-Israel, Isa (AS) would appear as Ummati of Rasul-Allah (SAW). So, amongst Ummat-e-Rasul (SAW), Isa (AS) would be ummati and not Prophet.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Even though from your post it looks like, but please do not say that you believe Isa (AS) was the person who got crucified but survived. :)

If you would believe that Isa (AS) was the person who got crucified but survived, than you would be denying Quran, as it is mentioned in Quran that they (Jews and Christians) did not crucify Isa (AS) nor killed him. But this person you are referring to, whether he got killed on cross or not, certainly he was crucified. Read the ayah:
**
4:157.** That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Mr Popat and Kchughtai: It seems you both believe that Isa (AS) was a prophet similar to any past prophets and died a natural death after crucifixion event. Can you please answer few questions (one by one) so that we can know what you believe?

1: Can you please tell us, what you think was the mission of Isa (AS) in his first coming?
2: What he achieved?
3: Can you please tell us why you think Isa (AS) was born without father?
4: Why Isa (AS) started talking in cradle and declared that the day he was born, the day he would die, and the day he would be raised are all blessed day?
5: Why Jews did not accept him as Prophet (AS)?
6: Why he got accepted by gentiles who consider him ‘son of God’?
7: Why ‘Jews and Christians’ believe that 'Jews and Romans' crucified and killed Isa (AS), still Allah says in Quran that they did not crucify nor killed Isa (AS)?.
8: Why Allah in Quran mentioned him as sign of the hour (43:61)?
9: Why Allah in Quran says that People of the book must believe on him before Isa (AS) dies (4:159) ... and what Allah means by that?
10: Why Allah says that Isa (AS) would be witness against ‘people of the book’ on judgement day (4:159)?

[Note: even though ayah 4:159 clearly shows that Isa (AS) is alive, there is another ayah in Quran that can reasonably prove that Isa (AS) disappeared from this world alive. I will come to that ayah later].

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Yes, I believe that Isa(as) was put on the cross but miraculously saved from death by Allah and this concept is not against Quran at all.
In the verse 4:157 'salab' means death due to crucifixion and not just putting someone on the cross. I will quote other instances of the use of this word from the Quran shortly but for a sec consider this very verse. There is lot of information that this verse provides.
1) It was made so appear to them: Now the 'it' could pertain to the very event planned to kill Jesus(as) or to the person od Jesus(as). In both cases, it does make sense. a) Jews were not able to kill Jesus but it so appeared/seemed that they had killed him. b) Jews weren't able kill Jesus(as) but Jesus(as) appeared/seemed [dead] so to them There is no mention/room for another person or another person being given the look of Jesus(as). It is a total conjecture and probably based in the rejected version of bible and not in Quran.
2) Who are the people who differ. Here Jews and christians are referred. These two groups differ with the verdict of Quran (, in the status of Jesus and in events after the crucifixion) and both believe that Jesus(as) was killed on the cross. Both follow this conjecture that Jews killed Jesus but still they are not sure of it.

Now other instance of the use of 'salab'

5:33) *The reward of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land is *only this that **they be slain or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on alternate sides, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment;

Note that both 'qatal' and 'salab' has been used in a single verse and here 'salab' signifies death through crucifixion and not just placing the convict on the stake.

There are other instances but I think this should suffice.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Saleem,

I will try to comment on as many points as I can right now and may get back on the points that will be left.
Yes, We believe that Jesus(as) was like rest of the prophets and he died a natural death but not right after crucifixion event but we believe that he migrated eastwards in search of lost tribes of Israel.

[quote]

1: Can you please tell us, what you think was the mission of Isa (AS) in his first coming?

[/quote]

Isa(AS) was a messenger of Allah sent to bani Israel. He was not a law bearing prophet but preached torah. Injeel/Gospel is not a new law

[quote]

2: What he achieved?

[/quote]

He was rejected by most of the Jews but the mission of a person sent by Allah is to convey the message to his people. After completing his mission in syria, he migrated eastwards to convey message to other Israeli tribes

[quote]

3: Can you please tell us why you think Isa (AS) was born without father?

[/quote]

His fatherless birth was a warning sign for the Jewish people that Allah's favors upon them are about to end because of their behavior towards messengers and message of Allah and they have forfeited the right to the divine blessings of prophethood and there would be no prophet from jewish father . His fatherless birth symbolized total spiritual sterility of the Jewish people.
In mathew 21:43, Jesus(as) said "Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits."

[quote]

4: Why Isa (AS) started talking in cradle and declared that the day he was born, the day he would die, and the day he would be raised are all blessed day?

[/quote]

About the days of birth death etc being blessed. same thing has been said about hazrat Yahya(as). so what is your point?

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Like Carl the Great who forced the people at his time to accept Christianity, Isa (as) will either force the disbelievers by the point of his sword to become Muslims or they will be killed.

REFUTED:

The very own Qur'an you all quoted refutes this stance. This shows how much you really know about Qur'an. I think most of you have done Masters in Mirzayyat. Yaks, I could not believe, that in Pakistan, you can do your Theological Masters in Mirzayyat now.

*"And if thy Lord had *enforced His will, surely, all who are on the earth would have believed together. Wilt thou, then, force men to become believers?" (Sura Al Yunus, Verse 100)
**
On the one side you people say that Allah can do whatever he wants. So if he changes his will then the Qur'an is false and zero, abrogated!!! The Holy Qur'An is the word of Allah and Allah, according to your stance, can change his will. So he will change the Qur'An, too. What insult to Muhammad Mustafa (saw) and then he is considered to be the Khatam-ul-Anbiya, the greatest, the best.

I cannot believe this. I simply cannot believe this piece of tale.

You resemble those Ulema who could not understand the Holy Qur'An and called it abrogated.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace kchughtai

This is where Arabic knowledge is very important ... :)

You say this verse is another instance of the use of the same word - but it is NOT ...

In 4:157 - it states - "Wa ma qa*taloohu, wa ma salaboohu"
In 5:33 - it states - "Ayn yuqattalu, au yusalla*bu"

Notice how in 5:33 there is tashdeed in both words - it is on the masdar mu'awal or the verbal noun.

To illustrate the difference these are two different verbs in actual fact ... The first form is form 1 the second is form 2 ... In Barron's foreign language guides, 501 Arabic verbs ISBN-13: 978-0-7641-3622-1, page vii, (2007) it states:

quote

Form II can also contribute a heightening of intensity to the meaning of a verb; thus the Form I verb "qatala", meaning "to kill", is intensified in Form II to "qattala" meaning "to massacre" ...

end quote

Also ... qatala can mean "fight" and hence "salaba" can mean merely to put on the cross, whereas "qattala" must mean kill and hence "sallaba" means crucify to death ...

End of argument ... The verse 4:157 hence means that they did not even harm him ...

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Bigboi

Isa (AS) will not force anyone to believe - you have so misunderstood what our remarks have been ... Rather he will merely look at them or breathe on them and enlightenment will overflow in them resulting in belief - except for those people who spiritually dead and blind to the light ... they are the ones who will fight and simply die without being physically struck ...

If anything the first part of the ayat will be getting fulfilled not the second part ... Since Isa (AS) is an agent from Allah (SWT) it will be the Will of Allah (SWT) for this to happen and no one will force anyone to do anything - it will happen rather miraculously.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

[quote]

9: Why Allah in Quran says that People of the book must believe on him before Isa (AS) dies (4:159) ... and what Allah
means by that?
10: Why Allah says that Isa (AS) would be witness against ‘people of the book’ on judgement day (4:159)?

[Note: even though ayah 4:159 clearly shows that Isa (AS) is alive, there is another ayah in Quran that can reasonably
prove that Isa (AS) disappeared from this world alive. I will come to that ayah later].
[/QUOTE]

We believe the translation of 4:159 goes like this
"And there is none among the People of the Book but (continue to) believe in it before his death; and on the Day of
Resurrection, he(Jesus(as)) shall be a witness against them"

Now the two key parts where we differ are
1) his death - It pertains to each one of the people of the book. Another reading of 'Mautihi' is 'Mautihim'
2) 'bihi' on it - Please refer to the verse i.e., 4:158. same thing has been highligted over here. the people of the book
will keep believing in the false belief that Jesus(as) was killed by the Jews although this is based on a conjecture. They
will face the truth on the Judgment day when Jesus(as) would be witness against them. Jesus(as) would be witness on them on
the judgment day for their false belief that jesus(as) died the death of an accursed one and their rejection of the truth
(Jews) and their swaying away from the origional teachings (Christians)
Saying that people of the book must believe in Jesus before his death is quite ridiculous idea. When Islam has come and
believing in prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ensures that one believes in all the prophets then why highlighting specifically Jesus
to believe in. Moreover, it has no connection to the context as highlighted above.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace kchughtai

Our understanding of "must believe in him" from verse 4:159 comes from "must believe in him as per the opposite of verse 5:116 - which is therefore

that he is a true prophet who neither

asked for worship of himself
nor for his mother.

Also, the statement that your rendition makes is already proven false ... because many of the people of the book become Muslim every day.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

**How wicked is that? Tell me honestly how wicked is that? In the other Thread you say "Kill the swine" and "Break the Cross". That is getting ridiculous.

So now, he will look at them and they will believe? They will not read the Book which presents the arguments and asks the reader to reflect, but a Prophet sent to the House of Israel will come and suddenly mankind will either believe what the Qur'An teaches or they will get struck, but not physically? The disbelievers will still be there walking as people with no brain, no will...
Like Zombies...

Psyah, do you want to make a joke of the Holy Qur'An? With that what you say, you doubt the Holy Qur'An being a complete Book. I have enough.

He will breathe at them? With all respect!! Is that serious? He will breathe at them verses of the Holy Qur'An now, right? I have read enough.

La kum deeno kum waleyaa deen (Al Kaferun, Verse 7)**

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Bigboi

This is what the hadith in Islam say, you are welcome to reject them ... Since you have used Verse 7 of Al-Kafiroon (Those who reject) on me I wonder who is rejecting here ... anyhow at least you are clearly stating that your deen differs from mine .. In that I certainly agree with you.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

I thank Psyah for clarifying the ayahs 4:157 and 4:159 using Arabic grammar. Anyhow, here is something I would like to add, without going into Arabic or grammar.

4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4:158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
4:159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Ayah 4:157 … Allah says … ‘they killed him not, nor crucified him’.

Crucifixion was a method of killing by ‘putting a person on cross’ and those crucified ‘usually’ used to get killed. But that does not mean all who were crucified got killed. So, when Allah says that ‘they did not crucify Isa (AS)’ it means ‘Isa (AS) was not put on cross’.

Actually, statement in ayah 4:157 ‘wama qataloohu wama salaboohu’ (they did not killed him and they did not crucified him) negates any impression where ‘crucified him’ can be taken as ‘killed him’ and validates the impression that ‘crucified him’ means to ‘put him on cross’. This is because, before mentioning ‘crucified him’ Allah mentions ‘killed him’.

For instance, when person have choice and takes ‘crucified him’ in ayah synonyms with ‘killed him’ or synonyms with ‘put him on cross’, then obvious choice has to be ‘put him on cross’ else sentence would become ridiculous and illogical. For instance, choice is between:

‘They killed him not nor killed him’
And
‘They killed him not nor put him on cross’

Those who want to believe that ‘crucified’ in ayah means ‘killed’ and not ‘put on cross’ then they have to ask themselves why Allah mentioned that ‘they did not killed Isa (AS)’ before mentioning that ‘they did not crucified Isa (AS)’.

Only justification could have been if there was a method shown in ayah for killing Isa (AS) other than crucifixion, but it is not. For instance, ‘they killed him not by sword nor crucified him’. But when ayah says that ‘they killed him not nor crucified him’ then there is no choice other than to take ‘crucified him’ as ‘put him on cross’.

Thus, ayah 4:157 clearly negates any belief that Isa (AS) was crucified (put on cross), regardless of he got killed or not.

According to you … Ayah 4:159 should mean:
(QT) 4:159: And there is none amongst the People of the Book but (continue to) believe in it before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Instead of what Muslims translate and understand, that is:

(MT) 4:159: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Again, whoever twisted the translation (QT) you posted, they should have realised that what they translated is impossibility as it is verifiable lie. Due to their twist in translation, difference becomes:

(QT): All people of the book must believe on (X) before they die.
[Where X = Isa (AS) died on cross]
(MT): All people of the book must believe on Isa (AS) before Isa (AS) dies.

Just think:
QT translation: All people of the book must believe on (X) before they die. [Where X = Isa (AS) died on cross]

Such translation means ‘all people of the book’ since day one and is time independent. That means all (each and every individual soul) who is/was ‘people of the book’ (Christians and Jews) since crucifixion event referring to Isa (AS), must believe that Isa (AS) died on cross.

That is verifiable lie, as it condemns each and every Jew and Christian of believing that Isa (AS) died on cross. But that is untrue, as there were/are many Jews and Christians since time of ‘crucifixion event’ who believe that Isa (AS) did not die on cross. Obviously, Christians who were close to Isa (AS) and ‘Allah’ could not have believed such. Similarly Jews who may have accepted Isa (AS) as Prophet when Isa (AS) was present could not have believed such. Actually, if one reads Christianity, even today there is doubt on Isa (AS) dying on cross, as there are many Christians who do not believe such and question death on cross, claiming that Isa (AS) was taken off the cross alive.

Further, even Quran (4:157) confirms that many amongst them (Christians and Jews) differ in believing on Killing of Isa (AS) on cross, and thus are in doubt (4:157 … and those who differ therein are full of doubts), and whoever has doubt cannot be included amongst those whose believe is that Isa (AS) was killed on cross.

So, saying that ‘all people of the book must believe on Isa (AS) getting killed on cross before they die is lie… hence translation ‘QT’ is twisted and incorrect.

On the other hand MT translation: All people of the book must believe on Isa (AS) before Isa (AS) dies.

Has no lie (verifiable or unverifiable), as it talks of future event and ‘people of book’ are also limited, as they are all those ‘people of book’ who would be present at time of Isa (AS) death.

One can say that ayah 4:157 (MT translation) is a prediction of future event that has not happened yet … and it would get fulfilled when ‘all people of the book, including Jews and Christians, would believe on Isa (AS) before Isa (AS) would die (in his second appearance).

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

I'm not rejecting the Hadith. Be careful what you say. I'm rejecting your intepration of this Hadith. I had given you the intepration of the Hadith, but it was not sufficient for you and fellows.

4:158

And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty.

Watch the Turin Shroud, you will see wounds of someone being put on the cross...

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Bigboi

Indeed I am most careful in what I say ... Rather it was you who were speaking of that specific Hadith mockingly. So what is your interpretation of this?

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.

1) I find this Hadith interesting because the oath taken by RasoolAllah "in Whose Hands is my soul" is so close to the nature of Isa (as) being taken.

2) Secondly, son of Maryam(as) will come

3) He will rule

4) Break cross

5) Kill pig

6) Abolish jizyah

7) Abundance of money

8) No one will excepts gifts of charity

So do accept this hadith if so please explain each point to me .... Points 1 to 8

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

[quote]

Peace kchughtai

This is where Arabic knowledge is very important ...
You say this verse is another instance of the use of the same word - but it is NOT ...
In 4:157 - it states - "Wa ma qataloohu, wa ma salaboohu"
In 5:33 - it states - "Ayn yuqattalu, au yusallabu"

Notice how in 5:33 there is tashdeed in both words - it is on the masdar mu'awal or the verbal noun.

To illustrate the difference these are two different verbs in actual fact ... The first form is form 1 the second is form 2
... In Barron's foreign language guides, 501 Arabic verbs ISBN-13: 978-0-7641-3622-1, page vii, (2007) it states:

quote

Form II can also contribute a heightening of intensity to the meaning of a verb; thus the Form I verb "qatala", meaning "to
kill", is intensified in Form II to "qattala" meaning "to massacre" ...

end quote

Also ... qatala can mean "fight" and hence "salaba" can mean merely to put on the cross, whereas "qattala" must mean kill
and hence "sallaba" means crucify to death ...

End of argument ... The verse 4:157 hence means that they did not even harm him ...

[/quote]

Peace Psyah,
Before I comment on your 'end of argument', let me share some information that I got hold of.
Two views prevail among the Jews regarding the death of Jesus. Some of them think that Jesus was first killed and then his body was hung on the cross (Acts 5:30 "..whom ye slew and hanged on a tree",
while others are of the view that he died on cross. In this verse both the views are refuted.

Now to your comment. I think you are a little over-confident of your knowledge of arabic. My purpose of quoting the verse is to show another example of 'mention of killing' and 'crucifixion' together since some people claim that 'killing' encopmasses all forms of killing and mentioning 'crucifixion' as a form of death is redundant. In 5:33 'crucifixion' has been used as a form of death penalty along with 'killing'.

You mentioned Tashdeed and made it a basis for differentiation. The difference is intensity with same consequences. What I have noticed in the holy Quran is that 'tashdeed' for both the cases has been used to depict intensity of intention,
displeasure or severity of punishment as you have quoted.

You said that 'qatala' can mean 'fight'. This way, you are actually putting a question mark on the very refutation of
killing of jesus. aren't you? I have consulted al-munjad and found that the word that could mean 'fight' is 'Qaatala'
(comes with 'alif'). other similar words are 'Qitala', 'Muqatiala'.

You quoted commentary on 'Qatal' and automatically deduced that 'salab' can mean to put on cross only. Why don't you post meanings of 'salab' and 'sallab' from a good dictionary.
In short, in the verse 4:157, 'salab' has been used as a mode of killing and not just putting on cross. The context is pretty evident in this case. No need to go nuts over grammar.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Can anyone briefly explain to me how 4:159 is an evidence for the fact that Jesus(as) is still alive? pls try to be brief.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

[QUOTE]
Peace kchughtai

Our understanding of "must believe in him" from verse 4:159 comes from "must believe in him as per the opposite of verse 5:116 - which is therefore

that he is a true prophet who neither

asked for worship of himself
nor for his mother.

[/QUOTE]

Peace Psyah,

You have tried to make a connection that doesn't exist and I will talk about the connection that could be extracted from these two verses in a moment.
In verse 5:116, practice of shirk among the followers of jesus(as) was in question and whether Jesus(as) preached anything like that or not. His being a true prophet is not being discussed. Whereas in 4:157-159, refutation of accursed death of Jesus(as) is there plus the fact that the common belief among both followers and rejectors of Jesus(as) is founded on a doubt. Where is the connection? I don't get it.

Now the connection that can be deduced: In 5:117, Jesus(as) said in his response that "I was witness over them ......but after Allah did his tawaffee then Allah is watcher over his people". In 4:159, it is clearly stated that Jesus(as) will be witness over his people on the judgment day for their false beliefs. No mention of him being witness over them in this world again.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Jesus Christ, who he was or what happened to him.
Jesus Christ True Identity - YouTube
Jesus in India - Beyond Belief Documentary - YouTube
Jesus in India? – BBC Documentary - YouTube
Jesus in Kashmir BBC Documentry - YouTube
The Hidden Story of Jesus - Part 1 of 11 - YouTube
Banned From The Bible 1 - YouTube
Banned From The Bible 2 - YouTube

This discussion shows mindsets based upon magic and mystery rather than rationality and reality. Looks like people love living in confusion because they turn every clear thing in to a confusion rather than untangling the mysteries.

Disputes cannot be solved just by knowing languages but by knowing contexts and related real world realities so that arguments could be based upon some solid foundation. Unless these limits are understood all arguments are baseless ie they have no ground to stand on therefore they cannot prove or disprove anything.

The real question is, is quran a book of senselessness or confusions? The answer is straight forward no. So anyone who argues to turn it into a senseless book is actually doing the wrong thing and a huge disservice to its cause because Allah claims to be wise and he sent the book to make people wise not foolish by giving them something solid to base their lives upon.

Allah does not sent prophets to show miracles but to guide humanity. So looking for miracles in prophets is baseless in itself. Why? Because Allah does not do things that contravene his purpose or have no purpose. If anyone believes in make belief miracles, his first problem is to show miracles have a definite purpose in divine scheme of things and the second problem is to prove they have happened. The 3rd problem is to prove that events said to be miraculous really are the miracles because they could not have happened any other way ie they could not be explained any other way. It is because as soon as something could be interpreted any other sensible way then you have cast the doubt in the case/claim. So the case is dismissed.

Allah never gave any prophet anything other than his revelation. People simply misinterpret the quran and misrepresent it either due to their own ignorance or due to some other vested interests.

So called miracles stories related to prophets in the quran are all concoctions and the words used in there have perfectly sensible alternative meanings and explanations. Only people who lack in basic knowledge of things believe in miracles ie it shows they have not grown out of child mindset. Jesus was a human like any other human being in every sense of the word, chosen as a messenger to deliver the message of Allah to people he was sent to. Each prophet was a son of his own community or came from same tribe so he was a brother of the people. There is nothing in the quran that proves anything other than that about jesus.

The whole argument in the quran is that God does not pass away like humans so he does not need any son to inherit his kingdom nor God had any father who passed away leaving him his kingdom ie Allah did not inherit this kingdom of universe of anyone nor anyone is going to inherit it from him because he is eternal.

If anyone thinks Allah needs parents, wives and children then one needs to prove one’s case and so far none has been able to do that yet many people still carry on living in their foolishness like children live in their imaginary world when they do not understand things much. People even if they grow old could remain childish in their minds due to lack of needed knowledge that helps people know things.

My suggestion will be, please read works of people who have different views from yourselves because you may learn something new that may help you grow out of make beliefs.

If you think you must argue then argue the contexts or concepts for their truth. Get to know alternative meanings of the words and see how they change the contexts and concepts and likewise changes the whole story about jesus.

Ask yourselves serious questions and try to answer them yourselves to try and discover the proper context of story of jesus. All prophets were sent for same purpose and in a similar way under similar situations or circumstances. In short the commonalities between prophets and their mission help us discover things about various prophets even without knowing things specifically about any of them. In other words the tool we have been given we should learn how best to make use of them than waste our time in already known things by creating senseless disputes and confusions about them.

Where is sense in believing that jesus had no father when all the evidence we have is contrary to that? Why would Allah create jesus without father ie what purpose could it serve and does it serve the claim purpose? No, not at all, so why create such silly make beliefs?