Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

^^ www.voiceofislam.ca listen to archives of ‘Ansar Raza’. Very logical answers given by him to all the live callers.

If an old prophet’s coming does not violate the status of last prophet, then how will a new prophet born in muhammadi shariya violate that rule ? why do you think the teaching of Islam is not powerful enough to be able to make a person get to the level of prophet?

where is it written that an old prophet can come back and a new prophet cant? even if a new prophet would be doing everything you believe an old one would do? ( you do realize that our belief is the same.. its just the identity of the prophet where we differ.. )

In the contrary, Allah has told us that a previous prophet cannot be in the ummah of a new prophet.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Mr.Popat

Ok let’s see why an old prophet does not violate that criteria and a new one does …

The View of RasoolAllah (SAW) as per the finalists (orthodox) and as per the **continualists
**
Interpretation of SEAL

**Finalists claim:

**a) No more prophetic risala
b) No more changes to the Shari’ah (i.e. what was law at Muhammad (SAW) remains the law)
c) Only a Rasool has a holy Book
d) Every Rasool is a Nabi, but not every Nabi is a Rasool
e) That the rank of prophet does not change, but the role can change depending on the situation (e.g. story of Khizr (AS) and Musa (AS))
f) Wahi can be received by Isa (AS) but in the form of inspiration not in the form of Qur’an.
g) Upon the arrival of Isa (AS) he will follow the established leadership of Muslims
h) The nature of the advent of Isa (AS) will be military, although miracles may still be manifest upon him, he will guide us towards the words of Muhammad (SAW) and the Qur’an, provide his rightly guided opinion on a matter and we would be expected to follow him (AS).
i) RasoolAllah (SAW) title will forever be reserved for Muhammad (SAW)
j) No new prophet born
k) Hadith stating clearly that prophethood has ended
l) Lineage of prophets as proof - Muhammad (SAW) is a father to no son who remained alive.

**Continualists claim:

**m) Reject a)
n) Reject b)
o) Accept c)
p) Compromise this definition by saying that Muhammad (SAW) ended the “nabis” but not the “rasools”.
q) Rejection of e) they consider it a demotion of a prophet, despite the existing example.
r) Reject f) due to the p)
s) Believe that g) is wrong and will lead the Muslims to a different understanding of Islam
t) Reject h) despite the hadith on it and claim that his mission is one without violence
u) Reject this claim as well
v) Reject j)
w) Reject hadith k)
x) Ignore this distinction of l)

It is being asked where it is written “an old prophet can come back, where a new one can’t” Well a “return” is coming back - but a “new” prophet can’t return - because he has never come in the first place. He can come - but never **come back.

Misuse of the RETURN of Isa (AS) is prevalent in the references by continualists … Any new arrival is mutually exclusive from the idea of returning - it is a logical impossibility.**

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

^ before I comment on the points you have listed, pls note that there is difference in our definition of nabi and rasool and many problems arise when each group use their own definition. Lets stick with your definition for the time being i.e., 'Rasool' = a nabi who bring book/law/shariat etc.

then Ahmadi view as per my understanding:

a) No more prophetic risala - No risala but an ummati nabi who is installed by Allah and got guidance from Allah in certain matters but still is part of the ummat of the holy prophet(pbuh).
b) No more changes to the Shari'ah (i.e. what was law at Muhammad (SAW) remains the law) - Yes absolutely
c) Only a Rasool has a holy Book - Yes
d) Every Rasool is a Nabi, but not every Nabi is a Rasool - Since we are going about your definition So Yes. We call Shariati Nabi and Ghair-Shariati Nabi
e) That the rank of prophet does not change - Yes
f) Wahi can be received by Isa (AS) but in the form of inspiration not in the form of Qur'an. - What does that mean?
g) Upon the arrival of Isa (AS) he will follow the established leadership of Muslims - No- Masha-Allah. dil ki baat to yehan aap nay ki hai. A Prophet will follow what? there are so many widely varying beliefs. So will he meet each of them say them "Aap bhi theek hain" and "Aap bhi bhi sahi kehtain hain". What will become of his being 'Hakm-o-Adal'? If that pertains to only political matters then returning of a prophet after that many years and after a long wait seems strange. The religion of Islam was to prevail over all religions and as per my knowledge this was to happen at the time of promised messiah. but you say that the mission is political and military. This may happen at some point in time but the main thing is 'Ghalba-e-Islam'
h) The nature of the advent of Isa (AS) will be military, although miracles may still be manifest upon him,** he will guide us towards the words of Muhammad (SAW) and the Qur'an, provide his rightly guided opinion on a matter and we would be expected to follow him (AS). **highlighted point is diametrically opposite of what you said in g)
j) No new prophet born - Where is it written?
k) Hadith stating clearly that prophethood has ended - prophethood has ended but still a prophet is needed to guide the mankind and lead the muslims to victory?
l) Lineage of prophets as proof - Muhammad (SAW) is a father to no son who remained alive - What does that mean? that prophet should not have any son who survives. where did you get this criteria?

[QUOTE]

It is being asked where it is written "an old prophet can come back, where a new one can't" Well a "return" is coming back - but a "new" prophet can't return - because he has never come in the first place. He can come - but never **come back.

Misuse of the RETURN of Isa (AS) is prevalent in the references by continualists ... Any new arrival is mutually exclusive from the idea of returning - it is a logical impossibility.**

[/QUOTE]

ok show me where is it mentioned that Jesus(as) will return? for return, word 'Ruju' should have been used instead of 'nuzul'
There are problems with reurn of Jesus(as)
1) prophet to bani Isarael as per Quran
2) subjected to Torah and Gospel not Quran as per Quran
3) Not an ummati.
His mission on 'return' would be totally different from the previous one. different mandate, different assignment, different law to follow.so he will become the last one on coming?

btw, What is so great in being the last one?

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Regarding the following of Isa (AS) - Isa (AS) will subject himself to the leadership of the established Ummah - those who are in charge of the affairs of the majority at the time.

Even the majority can be slightly wrong or misaligned, but it does not mean that they will not be in charge, they will be guided by him to a correct position, but he (AS) will recognise their authenticity as inheritors of the faith. He will become the best of the ummah and hence we will follow his example as a follower in time.

It has to be made clear - A prophet guides, but the best follower shows how we should follow ... first Isa (AS) was in the previous capacity and in his second coming he will return as a person in the second. Look to the examples of the great Caliphs - that will be the standard that we expect from Isa (AS) and some say better. He will be the best of the Ummatis.

The prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed us to do things whereas his elect followers show us how we meet the instructions of RasoolAllah (SAW), by example. Personally I don't feel the question or debate of sects will be important in those days ... it will simply be a sheer struggle, the glimmer of hope coming from Isa (AS) amidst battle - people will have no time to speak about sectarian issues - they will simply do what is best and obvious based on the situation at hand.

Regarding the Arabic word for "return" yes I think I have not heard the term "ruju'" applied for his return - just "nuzul" - but it may be there. I was arguing about what was written earlier - that why can't a new prophet return - I was talking about the fallacy in the statement.

Since his role will not be of a prophet but of a follower we acknowledge there is no more prophethood - the fact the he is named specifically to return we understand that to be true literally and that since Allah (SWT) is not unjust his title of prophet or his designation of (AS) will be unfitting to be taken away from him (AS).

If I ever have the benefit of meeting him (AS) I would address him as Ya Sayyidi Isa alaiKaSalam ...

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

And we are asked what is so great in being the last one?

First of all there will be:

30 imposters as signs of the Day of Judgement; to be specific "last" means "last chance" to amend our ways before Qayyamah

Since RasoolAllah (SAW) will be the last - hence we can conclude that that the signs of an imposter is the one who claims is a NEW prophet and upon each imposter the Day becomes closer.

For those who do not believe in the finality of Muhammad (SAW) will also need to justify why they reject the claims of other prophets - not just the ones they follow.

The Ummah of RasoolAllah (SAW) is the greatest and hence we use that as a basis for our understanding of our Deen and orientation ... Muhammad (SAW) is our prophet we are from his Ummah. The fact that Muhammad (SAW) was of the noblest lineage it is the Sunnah of Allah (SWT) to give prophets from the progeny of the previous prophet.

It did not happen in the case of Isa (AS) for two reasons:

a) Isa (AS) did not get married and have children
b) The Chidlren of Israel lost their final chance to repent and the Kingdom of God was given to the Arabs.

Now ... we expect a prophet to come from the Arabs ... he came ... it was Muhammad (SAW) ...

If we are to expect future prophets they would have to come from his progeny - but his sons died in young age - Peace on them all. Hence we see the Qur'an linking the fact that he had no heirs with the finality of prophethood.

The greatest significance of finality is greatness of message - that it is complete and the bearing of finality is that we use it to determine and guide us through the fitnah of the call of the imposters.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace kchuhtai

I was pondering over what you said earlier about Isa (as) , not returning, (raja,a / yarji'u) but according to references he wil descend (nazala / yanzilu) ... It makes total sense ...

One only returns if he previous left ... Kharaja / yakhruju ... But if he was previously, taken up, raf'a / ya 'rifu ... Then it follows the natural thing to follow will be nazala / yanzilu ( descend ) .. In that he will be sent down (as).

He left vs he returned

he was taken up vs he was sent down

Thanks ...

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

[QUOTE]

But please - videos to engage - and can you provide videos from your Jamaat about topics others than Isa (AS) or why others are wrong ... such as ... umm let me see ... about the adab of dawah and/or about jihad ... and/or importance of prayer ...

[/QUOTE]

Certainly, we can provide videos and other materials on various topic. but if you remember this thread is about a different topic altogether. If you think Jammat's knowledge and scope is limited to talks on Jesus(as) then you are mistaken.
If you are interested in knowing our stance on jihad, importance of prayer etc. then please open a separate thread. I will not do this since I don't want to take another blame of propagting our views :)

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

If he was to come to this world 2nd time, 'Ruju' should mark his return or any other word that give similar sort of meaning. you are merely juggling with words. if we see like this then there is no explicit mention of him going up. It is raising to Allah and we believe it be 'Rafa-e-rohani'.
No mention of physical ascension upward or any station upward. I hate to repeat my words but I had to

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

[QUOTE]

The Ummah of RasoolAllah (SAW) is the greatest and hence we use that as a basis for our understanding of our Deen and orientation ... Muhammad (SAW) is our prophet we are from his Ummah. The fact that Muhammad (SAW) was of the noblest lineage it is the Sunnah of Allah (SWT) to give prophets from the progeny of the previous prophet.

It did not happen in the case of Isa (AS) for two reasons:

a) Isa (AS) did not get married and have children
b) The Chidlren of Israel lost their final chance to repent and the Kingdom of God was given to the Arabs.

Now ... we expect a prophet to come from the Arabs ... he came ... it was Muhammad (SAW) ...

If we are to expect future prophets they would have to come from his progeny - but his sons died in young age - Peace on them all. *Hence we see the Qur'an linking the fact that he had no heirs with the finality of prophethood.
*
[/QUOTE]

you are referring to the famous verse 33:40,
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but *he is *the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things."

You said that Quran has linked the fact of no sons of the holy prophet(pbuh) to the finality of prophethood yes but in an inverse way. If it is stated as you said then it should go like this:
He is not the father of any of your men thus/and/so he is the seal of the prophets. In the verse 'wa laakin' has been used to link the two parts and you know better than I do that when this word is used the 2nd part decribes something in a sense opposite of what has been described in part one. First part cannot be complimentary to the later one. there are many examples for this aspect in the holy Quran. So why 'wa Laakin' has been used if the fact of no sons complement and explains his being seal/last of the prophets. Pls give your expert opinion

btw, Jesus(as) was not Israeli nor progeny of any prophet from his paternal side.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace kchughtai

That is to do with honour ...

The people taunted him for not having sons, although he (SAW) did have sons, but he (SAW) has no direct progeny to continue his family name (SAW), because they died young.

So in response it was stated by Allah (SWT) that Muhammad (SAW) is the SEAL of prophets - i.e. yes he is not a father of any of their men, but (that is because) he (SAW) is THE SEAL OF PROPHETS. (Thus restoring the honour that the taunters were trying to take from him (SAW))

Otherwise - why do you think the two aspects (not father and Seal of Prophets) have been brought in the same verse?

I didn't say Isa (AS) was from Bani Israel - but some of them accepted that he (AS) was sent to them.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Isa was sent to bani Israel. no doubt. but I am pointing to the exception in the rule that you are trying to deduce

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace kchughtai

There is no exception ... Isa (AS) was sent to the Bani Israeel as a prophet but on his (AS) second coming he will not maintain the capacity of prophet, but as follower.

He will send Peace and Blessings upon Muhammad (SAW) inside and outside prayer and so shall the rest of the Muslims.

My earlier question you have however missed ... what is your tafsir of why the ayat contain the mention of Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) not being a father yet being the Seal of Prophets? What is your reasoning for this combination?

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Whom Allah has appointed a prophet, how can you say that he will not maintain the capacity of prophet? Hasn't Prophet Muhammad (SAW) called Isa (AS) a prophet? What justification is for the "a prophet but not really a prophet" belief?

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Thank Allah for Pakistani laws in regards to this cult.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace brahmachari99

Allah (SWT) needs no justification to appease your mind. The way I look it is this: Isa (AS) is a prophet of Allah (SWT) his prophetic duties extended to Bani Israel in his first coming and thereafter in his second coming Isa (AS) will be the best of the followers of Muhammad (SAW). It appears you do not see being the best from the best ummah is a noteworthy justification ... but I do. His (AS) main role will be to destroy Dajjal - that has not happened yet which means he has not come yet.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Psyah,

Before I say anything more pertaining to this very verse or the topic of 'Khatme Nabuwat' in general, pls answer my question that I have asked twice but you have very shrewdly brushed it aside re-read first few lines of my previous post]
Moreover, how is my stance inconsistent? How does your stance negate mine? btw, the way you translated the verse after I pointed to the word 'wa Laakin' is pretty strange. Doesn't make sense as you have equated 'But' to 'that is because'. That is just one incident where you tried to act oversmart.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Funny you should say that. This is exactly the logic I'd use to argue my case. You are the one who's arguing that the best ummah is really not capable of attaining the highest spiritual reward that's promised in the Quran.

And this is still a conjecture on your part that "Isa (AS) will not maintain the prophethood". I'd rather believe Prophet Muhammad (SAW)'s word when he calls Jesus (AS) a prophet.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

I would like to contribute to this thread since this is about my and our beloved Jesus. I believe he'll come back to rid this world off tyranny and oppression. Since i am not really religious person that is all i know. I hope he comes so we have some peace in this world. There are millions and millions of people dieing all over the world because of famine and wars. But my question to knowledgeable people including Muslims and Non-Muslims here alike: How would Jesus would do all this? Sounds so impossible. I mean wow have so many questionssssss.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

↑Alalh knows best. But, since this is prophesied by Prophet Muhammad SAW then we believe it will happen no matter what. Isa (AS) or Jesus will be helped by Allah, so it's not far fetched. Allah can do all things.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Jesus(as) as per islamic teachings is a true prophet of Allah. He(as) was a human being just like us. There are many verses in Qur'an that indicate his death. Muslims also do believe in his second coming. However, the second coming of Jesus(as) does not necessarily mean the same Jesus(as) sent to bani israel, the one who was born in Palestine, since he has passed away. What the second coming means is that a prophet within the ummah of Muhammad PBUH will be born who will be given the title of Messiah, who will have almost identical duties as Jesus of bani israel and will fulfill all the prophecies Muhammad PBUH foretold.

There are no questions. Its very straight forward. World will not see peace just because Jesus(as) will come. You will have to believe in the one who will be given the title of Messiah, the like of Jesus(as) in the shariyah of Muhammad PBUH to attain peace. If you believe the second of Jesus(as) will happen the way orthodox Muslims or Christians believe then yeah, I can understand all the questions popping in your head.