Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Society Religion & Philosophy
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43:61. And (jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

In above ayah it is clear that Isa (AS) would be a sign of Qiyamah. Question arises, How?

That would happen as Isa (AS) is alive and would appear before Qiyamah.

**How it can be concluded that Isa (AS) has not passed away and would return before Qiyamah: Relevant ayahs (I am basing my argument) are 4:157-59:
**
4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4:158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
4:159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

IF one reads above ayahs together one can easily deduce that Isa (AS) is alive and that he would return to this material world near Qiyamah (judgement day). Here is how:
**
4:157.**That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

In ayah 4:157 Allah tells that Isa (AS) was not crucified nor was killed rather it appeared to them (Jews, Romans and Christians) that they (Jews and Romans) killed him (AS). Time referred here is time Christians and Jews think Isa (AS) was crucified, or time of crucifixion.

As a person was crucified and dead body of that person was present, both Jews and Christians perceived that dead body was of Isa (AS). Allah in above ayah (4:157) tells that killed person and resulting dead body was not of Isa (AS), even though it appeared to them.

Since Isa (AS) disappeared after that event (of crucifixion) question arises what happened to Isa (AS)?

Allah answered above question in ayah 4:158 … and that is, Isa (AS) disappeared because ‘Allah raised him up unto Himself’.

[According to some Islamic commentary, the person who got crucified was not Isa (AS) but he was a person present at the occasion and Romans took him as Isa (AS) and crucified him. According to some Muslim claims, this person was one of Roman soldier. Some claim that he was ‘Judas’].
**
4:158**. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Ayah 4:158 is answer to ayah 4:157. According to Ayah 4:158 Allah raised ‘Isa (AS) unto himself’ [made Isa (AS) disappear from this material world]. This happened at the same time Christians and Jews believe Isa (AS) got crucified and killed.

So this ‘raising of Isa (AS) up unto himself’ is nothing to do with Isa (AS) dying (his soul leaving body), rather Allah at that particular time made Isa (AS) ‘physically disappear’ from this material world with ‘body and soul’.

[When we talk of death ‘inteqal’ in Islam, it means soul departing the body while in this material world (as death is part of this material world and not spiritual world). So, for Isa (AS) to die, he has to return to this material world from wherever he is, and then die. At that time Isa (AS) soul would leave Isa (AS) body in this material world].

Now … Even after accepting Isa (AS) physical disappearance at the time of crucifixion, someone might ask that how can anyone say with certainty that Isa (AS) did not returned sometime later from wherever Isa (AS) disappeared to, to spend his remaining life on this material world in silence (because no one heard of him after day of crucifixion so if he spent time in this world after date of crucifixion, then it must be in silence), and died natural death?

Well, Allah answered that in Ayah 4:159. ‘Ayah 4:159’ gives condition to get fulfilled before Isa (AS) would die. Until that condition is not fulfilled, Isa (AS) would not die. Here is Ayah:

4:159. And there isnone of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death**; **and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

In Ayah 4:159, it is clearly mentioned that before Isa (AS) die, all people of the book must believe on Isa (AS).

Above Ayah (4:159) is most important ayahs in Quran regarding Isa (AS), Isa (AS) coming to this world before Qiyamah, and death of Isa (AS) just before Qiyamah.

In above ayah, Allah has given a condition that has to get fulfilled before Isa (AS) would die, and that condition is:** ‘All people of the book would believe on Isa (AS) before Isa (AS) die’.** That is to believe that Isa (AS) birth was miraculous (without Jawaz), he was Prophet (AS) of Allah, he was not crucified but taken away by Allah alive and that he is still alive.

It is obvious, as to believe on a prophet is to believe on the message of Allah through that Prophet. Allah’s message through Isa (AS) is that Isa (AS) birth was miraculous (was will of Allah without any cause or Jawaz) and that he is Prophet of Allah who was not crucified rather taken away by Allah alive.

To believe on mentioned messages is test for believers as such belief shows that Allah does not need Jawaz for making anything to happen. Rest of Isa (AS) messages were time dependent and thus became irrelevant with time.

Jews consider Isa (AS) was not Prophet but imposter. They give Jawaz to birth of Isa (AS) claiming that his birth was illegitimate not miraculous. They also believe that Isa (AS) was crucified and killed.

Christians consider Isa (AS) was not Prophet but ‘son of God’. They give Jawaz to birth of Isa (AS) claiming that ‘God was his literal father’. They also believe that Isa (AS) was crucified and killed.

Ridiculous beliefs of Jews and Christians are due to them unwilling to accept birth of Isa (AS) as miraculous (birth without Jawaz), and crucifixion that they perceived it was him.

It is only Muslims who believe that Isa (AS) was prophet, his birth was miraculous (without Jawaz), and that he was not crucified rather at time of crucifixion Isa (AS) was taken away by Allah alive (and that he is still alive).

**According to Ayah 4:159, above situation would change before Isa (AS) would die **(his soul would leave his material body).
**
4:159.**And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Since the mentioned situation (all people of the book believing Isa (AS) as prophet, his birth as miraculous birth, and that he was not crucified but was taken away by Allah alive) has not happened yet means Isa (AS) is still alive.

As Isa (AS) death is to happen on this material world, Isa (AS) would return and would die once mentioned condition is fulfilled, that is, people of the book (Christians and Jews) present at that time would start believing that he is prophet, his birth was miraculous (birth without ‘jawaz’), and that he was not crucified. All would happen before Qiyamah in future.

Even though only Allah knows how it would happen, but this could happen if ‘all people of the book would become Muslim’ and they would change their own beliefs regarding Isa (AS) to Islamic belief …something is also predicted to happen before Qiyamah and after return of Isa (AS).

When that would happen only Allah knows, but certainly it has not happened as yet, but would surely going to happen in future before death of Isa (AS) and certainly before Qiyamah.

Note: If any Muslim thinks that Isa (AS) has died and disputes 2nd appearance before Qiyamah, they have to clarify that how condition mentioned in Quran (4:159) ‘none of the people of the book but must believe in Isa (AS) before Isa (AS) death’ can get fulfilled.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Saleem,

Your post #155 seen. Plz continue.

:jazak:

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Couldn't have been more simpler than this. May you get the reward for this effort.

Also worth mentioning would be the fact that Gospel of Saint Barnabas also documented the similar proofs as understood in Islam.

The only irony is that this Gospel was thrown out by Council of Nicea under the jurisdiction of the founder of Christianity, Saint Paul, somewhere in 325 A.D.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Nice post Saleem, jazakallah khair

This link may also help

http://www.khatm-e-nubuwwat.org/ahmadies/12AyaatIsbaatHayaateEisaAlihiSalam/P/index.htm

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Jazakallah. Indeed those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge. May Almighty Allah put them on rigth path. . . May the

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

MashaAllah ... Good post Sa1eem

The fact is neither on the macro scale or the micro scale does it fit to believe other than Ascension.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

I particularly view this verse with a lot of awe ...

4:158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and *Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- *

Allah (SWT) declaring His Power about raising him (as) to Himself ...

Look how the two versions sound:

Allah is so Powerful that He raised the rank of Isa (as) ...

Or

Allah is so Powerful that He took Isa(as) out of this existence and into another ...

Allah's words are not futile and this declaration means that the rafa is something enormous.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

^^^
Brother, I understand meaning of the verse ‘4:158’ and reason for Allah to remind people that he is ‘Exalted in power and wise’, differently. Please, let me go through the ayah as I understand.

I am also going through why in Quran when ‘rafa, tawaffee or any derivative’ is used in reference to Isa (AS), it means taking away of Isa (AS) alive (body and soul).

One should understand that it is no big deal for Allah to mention that he is ‘exalted in power and wise’ regarding anything, because he is creator and there is ‘none powerful or wise than him’, neither anyone questions that anyhow. Question is also not that Allah took Isa (AS) alive [or gave Isa (AS) ‘rafa’] because he is ‘exalted in power and wise’, but question is that:

Why at the end of ayah 4:158 **Allah mentioned **that he is ‘exalted in power and wise’.

First let me go through the word ‘rafa’ used in ayah, as it is important to understand that before understanding last part of the ayah.

You are right (in discussion on other thread) that word ‘rafa’ used in ayah (4:158) means taken away alive (with body and soul). Actually, anywhere in Quran when ‘rafa, tawaffee or any derivative’ is used in reference to Isa (AS), it means taken away of Isa (AS) alive (with body and soul).

Why?

Wherever this word ‘rafa or its derivative’ is used in relation to Isa (AS) in Quran, it refers to the instances (in time) when crucifixion happened. So, to understand the applicable meaning of this word with reference to Isa (AS), we have to know what happened at the time of crucifixion.

What happened?

A man got arrested by Romans who was taken (by all present at that time) as Isa (AS). That man got crucified and died on cross. Due to that, Jews, Christians and Romans believe that Isa (AS) got crucified and killed. They believe that even today.

Allah in Quran says that Romans, Jews and Christians believe that Isa (AS) was crucified and killed is their ‘conjecture (or feeling)’ as Isa (AS) was not crucified nor killed.

Regardless, killers (Jews and Romans) and heirs (‘waris’) had a body [they believe was of Isa (AS)] thus their belief was real. It means, according to Jews, Christians and Romans, someone was crucified and killed [for them that someone was Isa (AS)]. *Important thing to note is that, after crucifixion, none saw Isa (AS). *

[Christian claim that apostles saw Isa (AS) after crucifixion, but that could be hallucination, conjecture, real, or whatever.

How that could be real?

Christians (apostles) claim that they saw Isa (AS) after crucifixion, who assured them that he was alive in body. But then, after sometime he left for haven, taken away by Allah. So, if that is true than it means, at the time Isa (AS) was not crucified nor killed, but he was alive giving last visits to apostles (before getting taken away). After that, Isa (AS) was taken away to haven by Allah alive.

Thus for Christians, their seeing Isa (AS) alive after event of crucifixion became ‘resurrection of Isa (AS)’ as they believe that Isa (AS) was crucified and killed, and Isa (AS) taken away by Allah as his final departure ... though they also believe that Isa (AS) would come at the end of time to rule for 1000 years.

For Muslims, Isa (AS) was not crucified nor got killed, so there was no resurrection. As for Isa (AS) taken away by Allah alive, for Muslims, it was his departure to come back later (near Qiyamah).

Wallah Allam].

Thus, question arises that, what happened to Isa (AS), as according to Quran he was not crucified nor died. He disappeared from the scene too for no one to see after that. Allah says in Quran that he was taken away.

If Isa (AS) was taken away dead (only his soul was taken away) then his body would have been on ground for all to see. But that did not happen and that is the reason Jews, Christians and Romans believe that the person that got crucified was Isa (AS). That means there could be no logical conclusion other than to believe that Isa (AS) was taken away by Allah alive, with his body and soul (that can get confirmed from Quran too).

[NO body of Isa (AS) on ground after event of crucifixion means Isa (AS) was taken away by Allah alive with his body]

Allah taking away Isa (AS) alive with body and soul is also test from Allah for believers, as Allah wants Muslims to believe that Isa (AS) was taken away alive with his body and soul... and that he was not crucified nor got killed.

Reason for testing this belief amongst believers is that believers should have belief that Allah is not bounded by any reasons (Jawaz).

But then, Allah knew that many Muslims would question this happening, thinking that Isa (AS) has actually died. For them, it would seem impossible to believe that a human can live for so long, be that on this material world or away from material world. Allah also knew that many non-Muslims (Christians, Jews, atheists, and others) would also consider that what is written in Quran is something impossible to believe.

It is for these people, just after telling that Allah took away Isa (AS) alive (in his body and soul), Allah reminded that Allah is exalted in power and is wise, so one should not doubt what Allah could do and what Allah could not.

Actually, believing that Isa (AS) did not die but was taken away alive by Allah (in his body and soul), as mentioned in Quran, does not only verify a person belief on Quran but also verify a person believe that Allah is wise and has exalted power, and thus there could be no question on the authority of Allah.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

If Allah had planned to take Jesus(as) away to heavens then what was the purpose of putting another person of his resemblance on the cross and let him die. This is simply beyond understanding. If jews had known or ascension of Jesus(as) had taken place before their eyes, they would have prostrated right therem or do you think they could have followed him upto the heavens
There was no witness of the ascension of Jesus(as) and he was not there to tell about it then how did that ascension theory came about. and this theory that had no basis unfortunately trickled into islamic beliefs as well.

In your post, you claimed in bold that 'no one saw jesus after the crucifixion and then you admitted that his disciples saw him and you said it was a hallucination. he(as) actually appeared before them and showed them his wounds and ate with them.

Quran is not in favor of the mythology of ascension of Jesus. it is rooted in beliefs of christianity and literal interpretation accorded to various hadiths.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

I will let you know after asking from Allah. :) Well, even though only Allah knows the purposes best:

I believe the purpose could be that since believe on Isa (AS) ascension is Allah’s test for believers (Muslims and people near Qiyamah), conjecture amongst Christians that Isa (AS) got crucified and killed has to be there. (Quran also mentions that in 5:157)

Just imagine if Allah has taken Isa (AS) to haven (alive with body) without leaving a conjecture ... that is, someone resembling got crucified and killed whom people believed to be Isa (AS) ... then there would have been lot of questions at the time Isa (AS) was taken away by Allah.

[quote]
This is simply beyond understanding. If jews had known or ascension of Jesus(as) had taken place before their eyes, they would have prostrated right therem or do you think they could have followed him upto the heavens
[/quote]

Why it is beyond your understanding? Is it also beyond your understanding that instead of sending ‘prophets and books’ why Allah do not send angels to each and every human with messages and could also take humans to heaven and hell for ‘sight visit’, and then all would believe on Allah without doubt, would have done everything to please Allah, and would have been obedient servant of Allah.

[quote]
There was no witness of the ascension of Jesus(as) and he was not there to tell about it then how did that ascension theory came about.
[/quote]

This theory came about because Allah says so in Quran ... that Allah raised Jesus on to himself (4:158). :)

[quote]
and this theory that had no basis unfortunately trickled into islamic beliefs as well.
[/quote]

Well, to me, it is unfortunate that you are not accepting words of Quran rather believing on your own conjecture.

[quote]
In your post, you claimed in bold that 'no one saw jesus after the crucifixion and then you admitted that his disciples saw him and you said it was a hallucination. he(as) actually appeared before them and showed them his wounds and ate with them.
[/quote]

I did not write that they saw Isa (AS) (I was not there when this happened ... or not happened). I only wrote that Isa (AS) disciples claim that they saw Isa (AS) after crucifixion. And rest is according to what they claim, that could be hallucination, dream, real, or whatever.

I only speculated that if they really saw then it could be a visit of Isa (AS) before accession. Anyhow, even if their claim is true, for their story of Isa (AS) showing his wounds and so on, that has to be surely concocted story (as Bible is full of concocted stories). Such concocted stories may have came into existence because Christians believe (or want to believe) that Isa (AS) was crucified and killed on cross.

You might say why I am saying that such story must be concocted. My answer is that ... I am saying because I am Muslim who believes Quran is words of Allah and in Quran (4:157) it is written that Isa (AS) was not crucified nor killed.

[Quote]
Quran is not in favor of the mythology of ascension of Jesus. it is rooted in beliefs of christianity and literal interpretation accorded to various hadiths.
[/Quote]

Who said that Quran is not in favour of ascension of Isa (AS) when it is clearly saying that Isa (AS) was taken away by Allah alive in person ... as after Isa (AS) was taken away by Allah (in person), no person or body of Isa (AS) was left on this material world for anyone to see.

On the other hand, Allah also wrote in Quran (5:159) that Isa (AS) has not died, rather he would die only after people of book would believe on him ... but till now they have not. So, if I believe that Allah is telling true in Quran (what I and every Muslim believe) that Isa (AS) would die only after people of the book would believe on him then I have no choice other than to believe that Isa (AS) is alive.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace kchughtai

Well first of all ... The crucifixion itself led to much guilt and a lot of unrest.

I have gone through the accounts of the Bible fairly closely and it appears the time when Isa (as) was taken was before the arrest. It is because the clues in the narrative give it away. I'll explain that on another occasion, inshaAllah.

There is also the parable of the owner of the vineyard which comes in to play here ... The people responsible for the crucifixion will be judged against based on their actions and intent to kill Isa(as) ... by allowing a crucifixion to take place even over a decoy means they will be given the justice they deserve to get. If Allah(SWT) saved Isa(AS) in front of them, then one would ask what did they do to deserve a life line, when they were required to have faith they rejected it ... Besides there were many miracles done by Isa(as) and they still rejected him.

In fact to me it becomes all to clear that some of them realised that it wasn't Isa(as) at all who was crucified and hence none of his close companions were at the crucifixion ... And the body was quickly taken away ...

Some actually say when Isa (as) was taken before the arrest leading to the crucifixion, then he (as) went to Makkah to do pilgrimage. He came back and showed himself ... Not his wounds ...but that he is back in person. It was then he was taken up to heavens ... And people did witness this ...

It says in the Bible that he was supported by two angels ... And it states he will return in the same way as he left (as).

In the Hadith on the other hand it states he will descend on the shoulders of angels ... And his hair will look as if it wet ... There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that certain accounts in the Bible are true or subtly vary from the truth.

Sa1eem's post above regarding the Power and Wisdom of Allah in this matter may be the reason, but you see ... If Allah (SWT) wanted Isa (as) to die a natural death, then indeed that is true but only after the second coming, and if you say no that it had to be there and then ... Well then there is no basis for the declaration of Power ... Which is said to refute the human minds who cannot believe that Ascension is possible for Allah (SWT).

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

hmm.. would take quite a bit of hard work for Jesus(as) to learn Arabic, and know the correct interpretation of Quran. For Christians, I find it very hard that they'll believe in whatever Jesus(as) will say to them in the second appearance. Infact, I fear that they'll stop believing in Him altogether, since they'll be in doubt as to why our prophet (or son of God as per their belief) is telling us to be a Muslim? More so, if they dont believe in Him, they will be killed!. Hence, how can Islam be propagating and claiming to be a religion that teaches peace and tolerance ? For Christians, it will be shocking to see their prophet ( or son of God as per their belief ) to be encouraging killing and violence, because He was the same person who preached tolerance, offering of another cheek if u're slapped on one side.

Talk about Islam! It will be known as a religion spread by sword finally! It never was in the times of Muhammad pbuh though, but things will change and people will just claim to be Muslim so that they wont be persecuted. So, all in all, Islam and the world needs a blood thirsty Messiah to come rescue them by killing whoever doesnt believe in Islam. There will not be any system, any government, any police , or any kind of force preventing him from fulfilling his task ( killing swine, breaking cross and killing non believers ).

Oh, and you never know if upon his second coming, he will follow Islam, or remain a prophet sent to bani israel. He might just go back to israel and preach them the true message of Allah, which was sent to him 2012 years ago. He(as) might know the true Bible by heart by now and could very well tell the christians where they went wrong and what the real Bible had said? But what about Qur'an then? Oh boy.. hes going to have quite a time on Earth with orthodox Muslims and Christians.. I hope He choose Islam.. but what if he chose Christianity and chose to correct the mistakes in Bible? He foretold about a messenger who will come after him and he said his name will be Ahmad. Why are Muslims believing in Muhammad PBUH despite clearly told to them the name will be Ahmad ?

What about jews? They thought they killed him on the cross? If they did not believe in Him upon ascending, why would they believe in Him upon descending ? They dont know how he looked like. Infact no one knows how he looked like. It is very unfair for God to put someone else on cross and put him on death (without any reason). Who was that person? Where is his grave? Was He the follower of Jesus(as) at that time or simply an idol/statue/puppet? Jews will in no way believe in Him. They would expect Jesus(as) to bring Elijah(as) from heaven along with him for them to believe in Jesus(as) as Messiah.

Things are very clear indeed. When He(as) was prophet for bani israel, he(as) couldn't do what he will do upon his second coming.. He(as) must be very excited.. and why not? It is the very time/era that everyone will believe in Him before his death. Everything will happen within a short period of time when hes here, then he will die. Not giving any opportunity for any non-believer. They must all believe, or they die.

Oh, and not to mention, after all the killings of non-believers, and justifying it with religion, He will terminate wars. Therefore, we can also conclude that people(muslims) who are killing eachother in Pakistan(in the name of religion) or else where are infact following what the future Messiah have to do it for them. Thats called being a good Muslim. I dont understand why is there even law enforcement in the first place? (maybe thats stopping Him from descending?.. he cant be a good citizen.. he requires no law enforcement to be on Earth so he could do what Allah has told him to do ( kill every non believer ).... something to think about.. no?

Prophet Isa(as) will do something, no other prophet could have done. Not even the holiest prophet,( the khataman nabiyeen, khatamal mursaleen, the most exalted, the master of all the prophets ) , Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah always be upon Him could not do. Prophet Muhammad PBUH was given only the task to convey the message of Allah to people.. but what do I say about Isa(as)... He(as) seems to be quite a personality!.

Not to mention the kufr fatwas that he'll have to live with. But no, even thats not going to be the case , since He (as) will kill whoever calls him non-muslim.

Why would anyone need to believe in him anyway? Allah gave Muslims a perfect shariyah, a perfect book, a perfect prophet and a perfect religion.. they dont need no instructions from anyone about the true teachings. Quran remains the same as it was 1450 years ago , but so is the explanation/translation of the verses. Whoever tells Muslims what the correct translation should have been needs to contact every single translator who translated Quran and talk to them rather than talkin to ordinary people..and why not? thats whats been believed since 1450 years, it cant be wrong. Its ok that Muslim ummah divided into 72 sects because at the end, its Jesus(as) job to unite them all. When other prophets came, they came with the same intention. To unite everyone under the same belief system, but it always turns out that they created distances between families, son and father, husbands and wives due to their belief in prophets.. but Jesus will not have such problem at all !

Jesus (as) with 2 personalities? a God fearing, peace loving is going to come back thirsty for blood. I cant seem to grasp this idea. But nonetheless, Islam will eventually prevail and there will be peace every where and so much money that people wont accept it.. finally a time on Earth everyone has desperately waited for... but wait a second .. whats the point now? He(as) came so late, and day of judgement is here now.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Mr.Popat

Aramaic is the mother tongue of Isa (AS) ... it is the closest language to Arabic ... just thought you should know that ... even though Allah (SWT) can do as He Wills.

**Luke 22:36

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have **a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Islam is about justice - and the "peace" is a state of the heart of the believer through submission to God ...

The Old Testament was eye for an eye, Jesus (AS) taught turn the other cheek and this was clarified by our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) that

retaliate in an equal amount to the damage that was taken from you and no more, BUT if you forgive it is better ... this is the state of peace through justice ...

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Dear friends, the quran is a divine text book for revolution to bring about a peaceful, progressive and prosperous human society. All words used in the quran are either in this main context or in context of how social changes came about or will come about and why and what was the condition of people of those nations.

Terms like ZOJUKA are used to in context of groups, parties or communities etc. It does not necessarily means your wife but you fellow worker or countryman or member of same community or administration. Depends upon what quran is discussing eg constitutional related matters, administration related matter or people related matters or just private family matters.

Likewise the quran uses words like SAMAA adn ARD for people ie people who occupy high positions and law positions in their communities or societies. As in urdu we say aasmaan par udne waale log aur zameen main dafan yaa gade hue log. Woh log jo bulandi par hen aur woh log jo pasti main hen.

Likewise quran uses word JIBAAL not for mountains but heavy weights in the communities, people who have influence on other people. During revolt people who were crushed by these heavy weights react and crush them in return. This is why quran is not superstitious book but is dealing with real issues in real word as we see the world today nothing jas changed.

Allah could not prove his power through nonsense stories of miracles because miracles cannot be proven. Proving is a rational process nothing to do with so called miraculous events. This world works according to set laws and Alah says his laws never change. The question is what happens if those laws change or are suspended as mullahs claim?

Here is the answer, if you break law ever even once in your life, can you claim that you were always consistent and law abiding citizen? The quran repeatedly states that Allah always did things the same way. His set up always worked the same way never failed even once.

Allah never stated in the quran that he wants to show miracles so that people become aware that Allah is very powerful. Allah created the world because he wanted to and he set it up in every way he wanted so it is doing everything Allah wanted it to do.

IOt is therefore better for us to try and Allah’s purpose which he explained in detail in the quran then make Allah have this or that purpose because that will make us happy.

Mullahs not only have twisted one or two things in the quran but many that were obstacle in their way if they suited their purpose in some other way including inventing miraculous events and magical stories.

Religion was the single most dangerous conspiracy against divine rule. Not only quran was twisted with help of other religion inventors but other religions too were inventions against the divine books of their time.

Kings and their priests were always against letting divine tule have a foot hold if they could help it.

So mullahs and people who believe their nonsense true are actually working against themselves. Because when wrongs happen elsewhere and you bring them home soon they start growing in your place like unwanted shrubs and weed.

Religion destroys nations because it sets minds of people to somewhere else instead of what they should be looking at and doing. This is why europe did not make progress till it got rid of religion and muslims only made progress in times past because they had quran then kept them in real world but when king and mullahs idea started gaining popularity muslims became stuck. This is why even in muslim countries today people want to break away from islam as a religion following example of europe. However this is not possible unless they break power of priestly class. Even bigger questions is what happens after people leave religion? This is why understanding deen concept of islam is of vital importance. Otherwise muslim are not going to survive civil wars between religious and secular forces both bypassing the actual islam based upon quranic teachings.

So if we want peace for making progress and be prosperous then proper understanding of the quran is absolutely vital. We are fast running out of time. We must come back to two nation theory and re-examine it to see what it was all about. Pakistan has gone through a few geenrations by now yet we have not even bothered to know the quran for implementation of which pakistan was created in order to to present to the world a working model of islam just like the prophet did back in 7th century arabia.

Story of Jesus is straight forward. Please read surah 4 on following link.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/522010-have-we-understood-the-quran-properly.html

regards and all the best.

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Mughal1

1) Qur'an is not proof - It is Guidance
2) Qur'an talks about Certainty of Sight - coming in the Hereafter and it talks about the Signs (ayaat) it comes with, which is the basis for faith and our belief system - It never claims proof. However those who are muttaqun are firm believers in the guidance as though it is proof.
3) We are obliged to believe in miracles - they are truth categorical truth - if you attempt to rationalise them in any way, give them a normal explanation and take away their true accounts as they happened, then you are rejecting the miracles ...

If it is part of your belief system to reject miracles that is up to you, but for sure they are real and a valid aspect of guidance - and they have been a valid form of showing authenticity of prophethood and many people converted on account of miracles - but the kuffar will see miracles and still not be convinced ... it does not mean that the method of using miracles to show support of ones authenticity is wrong.

Lastly, you say that Allah (SWT) does not change His Law ... but it has happened ... The Jews were not allowed to eat much of the food that we are allowed to eat ... the Sabath (holy day) was changed to the Jumm'a (holy day), and the Qibla (Jerusalem) was changed to the new Qibla (Makkah) ...

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Now you're relying on Bible. I see. The way Jesus(as) is presented in Bible is not entirely how Muslims see Him as. You're not denying him as peace loving and God fearing prophet. Eye for an eye, but no where will you find one event in christianity history or even in Islam that Jesus(as) did such an act. We can say bible has been changed, where as Quran has not. Talk to me from Quran. Prophet Muhammad said forgiveness is better, but what about Jesus(as)? If he forgives, you will not believe in Him. Therefore, he must kill !. Will you stand by him in killing the civilians ?

How do you justify His killing?

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace dear psyah and thanks for your responding to my post. As far as quran is concern, it is based in rationality and on that basis it lays claims and points out evidences and backs them up with arguments to prove its claims. This is how the quran works. Perfectly scientific method. No mullahs nonsense and no mullah invented spiritual nonsense.

So called miraculous stories you are talking about could be explained other ways so that proves that these miracle stories are at least doubtful and therefore invalid claims. Also I explained already why any irrational claim is invalid but to make it more plain when something has rational explanation positively or negatively then there is no space in that case for doubt is you have proved the claim either true or false. Doubtful claims can only be such as cannot be proven either way. They are then just possibilities. To me it seems from your reply that you have taken mullahs interpretation of islam without its critical examination. I do not know you would do that but some times people are not aware of of what a proof is and what is difference between proof and evidence. Many people get confused in this because in dictionary meanings of proof and evidence are interchangeable, however in actual fact their meanings depend on the context in which these words are used. Proof is explanation of evident facts that one uses for proving a claim. For example, a witness sees someone shoot someone dead firing two shots. In court we have two parts one witness statement=evidence and the independent facts related to this incident. What police is going to do is match the gun with shooter through his finger prints on the gun and take out the bullets from the body of the dead person and through ballistics test show that bullets came from the gun of the shooter. So we have testimony of the witness and independently verified facts and we can see one thing matches the other so the case is proven ie this is how statements and facts come together or are brought together to turn them into a proof. Likewise The quran lays claims about this world, points out some evidences for observations and its explanation regarding those facts seems to fit perfectly thereby proving that it is word of Allah. Hope this helps to clarify the problem you have understanding the quran as a proof.

The quran is proof from Allah to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that it is from Allah.

http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/2/2/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/2/23/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/4/82/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/4/170/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/4/174/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/5/15/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/6/93/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/6/104/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/10/38/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/10/57/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/11/13/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/12/111/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/13/43/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/18/56/default.htm

http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/21/24/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/22/3/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/22/8/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/27/64/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/37/157/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/46/4/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/52/34/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/52/38/default.htm

If you look into the quran there are many many verses about the quran being proof from Allah in various ways. It claims none can produce the constitution or guidance like the quran and anyone is welcome to debate on this issue and one will that quran does prove true. It is because mullahs and prrs etc wanted to make our people stupid they have invented concept of mazhab that that is how they turn the quran into mumbo jumbo. The reason they do this is because they want to rule people either as rulers and ruling elite or as their priests.

The quran tells us very clearly to be careful about clergy. In the quran we read 3/64,79 and 9/31

http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/3/64/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/3/79/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/9/31/default.htm

The quran does not allow us even to take his prophet anything more than that. Humanity is a brotherhood not a master slave thing, for all people are equal under the divine constitution. Better people deserve our respect as such but nothing more than that.

It is because islam came to save man from slavery of man not to make them slaves of each other. If we look at video on youtube we can see how our people have lost our dignity by respecting our mullahs and peers in all sorts of wrong ways. It is particularly sad because these mullahs and peers do not stop people from doing these things which shows these people love seeing other people under their control.

Islam is not about pooja paat of Allah but about looking after each other in the name of Allah. This is why he revealed for us knowledge as to how to organise ourselves as one family and work hard to make this world a paradise for ourselves. He did this so that we shed no blood and do no harm to each other but to look after each other by working hard for each other not against each other.

Compare this concept of islam to mullahs’ concept of islam. What has that islam given to humanity so far and what will it give it if we continue following that idea? So it is time to realise why we are not getting the results that Allah promised us because we have misinterpreted the quran and we ourselves can see that we have become zabaani kalaami musalmaan exactly as mullahs wanted us. to be. All because like Adam we did not listen to Allah’s advice and instead blindly followed our mullahs and rulers. We have no sense of purpose of things, we just do them because we assume they are good regardless if they actually are or they are not.

It is due to this people have become dispossessed, weak and poor without any dignity, because for any man who wants to meet set challenges must stand up, not lie down. This how these mullahs and peers have make us lose our self respect and we lying in every tomb looking for help from the dead because the living have failed to help us and who made the living fail to help us these mullahs. Just as rulers created laws to control us for their ends so have mullahs made laws to control us for their ends. Ruler made laws to control us in the name of state and mullahs control us through making laws about our private lives thereby controlling our private lives. Thus they have states within states. This is what secularism all about to use and abuse masses by playing games with the ignorant public.

This is why our mullahs are funded even by nonmuslim states that benefit from stupidity of our people. We need to learn facts fast because time is running out. This is why understanding sir syed, iqbal, jinnah etc and creation of pakistan is very, very important. If we do not wake up to what people are doing to us then may be there will not be pakistan any more. Islam is such an ideology that has a lot of enemies both from outside as well as from inside and because pakistan was created for showing the world what islamic working model looks like so everyone is worried they will lose economic based slavery.

Our poeple have little respect for sir syed, iqbal and jinnah because they do not know how clever these people were for the good of this ummah. Such people do not arise every day and that is why no such leader rose after them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK7k2_NFQzY&feature=related

regards and al the best

18

Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Peace Mughal1

Will be glad to take this discussion but on another thread ... this one is about the second coming of Isa (AS).

19

Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

5:116 - 117: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden......"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

No one can conclude from above ayahs that Isa (AS) when taken away, he died. It only means that when he was taken away he was not amongst the people and thus he could not be witness over what people started preaching and practicing in his name.

What Christians are following today, they adopted after Isa (AS) was taken away, and thus, as far as Isa (AS) is concerned, only Allah knows how and why they are worshiping Isa (AS) and his mother. That is what Isa (AS) claimed (as in ayah) that he cannot be witness to what Christians are doing as all happened after he was taken away, and only Allah is witness how people started worshiping him and his mother (‘Paul’ phenomena).

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Above ayah is also no proof that Isa (AS) died.

'Take thee': means taken away ... moved from where he was ‘with his body and soul’.

Raise thee to myself: Raise here does not mean getting raised in height but it means getting 'raised in nearness to Allah'. It shows destination of Isa (AS) once he was taken away (moved) from where he was, he did not go to Kashmir or Honolulu, but his destination was 'near to Allah' [Isa (AS) was raised in nearness to Allah].

As for 'those who follow thee' = those who would follow Islam, as religion of Isa (AS) was Islam ... and that means, those who would worship Allah alone and believe that Isa (AS) is prophet of Allah who was born without father.

As for 'people returning to Allah and that Allah would judge' ... that is regarding all human beings, people who reject faith, accept faith, or who accept faith in various ways. (It is universal judgment of Allah that would happen on judgment day),

17:77 (This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee: thou wilt find no change in Our ways.

Here ways are not universal but general. That means, generally Allah make things/events follow according to laws and rules that Allah has created for this material world, and for his messengers. On the other hand, that general laws and rules are limited as Allah is not bounded by those laws and rules ... and regularly things happen that is beyond those laws and rules. This was especially true when it comes to Isa (AS). For instance:

Isa (AS) was born without father.
Isa (AS) started speaking when in cradle.
Isa (AS) brought dead to life.
Isa (AS) made a bird from clay and gave life to that bird.
Isa (AS) use to do miracle left, right and centre.
Isa (AS) was only prophet whom his people asked their foreign occupier to persecute and kill (Jews asked Romans).
Isa (AS) is the only prophet (or person) whom people worship as God and also worship his mother, still for Muslims they are called people of the book. [Normally, as law of Allah, such people should be declared as kafir ... that is, one who do shirk].

Isa (AS) was taken up by Allah alive.
Isa (AS) would return during last days before Qiyamah.
Etc ... etc ... etc

Actually, all above events beyond general law and rules shows that Isa (AS) was not born just a prophet (AS) limited to his time, but was born with certain purpose from Allah, that is his person is test for mankind until day of Qiyamah (as ayah 43:61 says). This test for mankind is to witness and accept (show iman) that Allah is not bounded by laws and rules, but Allah is beyond laws and rules and defy them whenever he wishes so: Existence of Isa (AS) and miracles associated to him, including Isa (AS) taken away and returning before Qiyamah is such action of Allah that defy laws (it seems that anyone who do not believe on Isa (AS) existence beyond natural laws, do not have ‘Iman’ on Allah’s power of defying laws he created).

43:61. And (jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

Actually, such belief (component of Iman) is also demanded by Allah from people (believers) by telling them to accept such beliefs at various places in Quran (that no laws or rules bound Allah): For instance:

When mentioning stories in surah kahf,
Story of Yunus (AS) surviving in belly of fish
Camel of Salih (AS)
Various storied of Ibrahim (AS) including fire turning into flowers.
Musa (AS) and his stick
And so on.

Why Allah associated such beliefs with Isa (AS) and has made Isa (AS) a test for humans?

Reason (as I understand) is that, from time of prophet (SAW), obvious miracles in this world ended, because Allah wanted humans to rely on Allah’s created scientific and other natural physical laws with confidence (without doubt) and develop this world as what Allah wanted this world to be.

Thus (and Allah also knew), with time people became too influenced by natural physical laws denying all miracles. Such believes is increasing with time, creating disbelief amongst people that Allah is beyond his own created laws or could give powers to humans that is beyond created laws. But then, Allah is beyond any laws Allah created, and can give powers to whoever he wants amongst his creations (including selected humans) beyond laws he created, and this belief is part of Iman. So, Allah has created a situation that needs 'Iman' on Allah being above his own created laws (that he can manifest directly or through his other creations), and that, a person confirms by believing that Isa (AS) is taken from this material world alive and would return. That is what Allah mentioned in ayah 4:61 ... that Isa (AS) is sign (note: all signs of Allah are test).

It is such belief that makes a person believes (without hesitation) that Isa (AS) is alive and that Isa (AS) would return before Qiyamah (as can be extracted from Quran too ... especially from ayah 4:159).

4:159*.* And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

[Actually, for those who believe that Isa (AS) has died, they have to give logical explanation to ‘ayah 4:159’ that ... when Jews are present in this world who do not believe on Isa (AS) as prophet or God ... but think that Isa (AS) was an illegitimate child, an imposter, who got crucified ... then how Isa (AS) could die ... as ayah says clearly that ... ‘there is none of the people of the book but must believe in him before his death’ ... in other words ... ‘All people of the book must believe on Isa (AS) before the death of Isa (AS)’.]

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Re: Isa (AS), Quran and his second coming:

Mr. Popat: You made my day. Best post on this topic so far :)