The above that you have quoted is out of context for this discussion my trusting the majority of scholars is not the same as following the majority of people on Earth. For sure this verse refers to democracy and not the ijma of scholars, which has been supported from the earliest of Islamic times.
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
Peace Psyah
With all due respect, I rather refer to the Quran than any books. When u said abt following majority, this quranic verse just poped out of my head. So I tot I'd share it with u.
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
^ Peace barakhba
The tiered authority of reference is:
The Qur'an
The Prophetic Hadith
The Ijma' of Companions
Opinion of a companion
The Ijma' of Scholars
The rational faculties
The emotional faculties
The tier system is often misunderstood because people believe they can go directly to the Qur'an or hadith without looking to context and what the hadith say about the verses. It is the mistake that was committed by the Khawarij.
If you appoint your rational faculties to understand the Qur'an before looking to the Ijma of scholars on the verses you quote then you are not really appointing the methodology of Qur'an and Sunnah. As I said the verse you quoted is not only invalid on the topic but it is also rationally unsound because;
1) I said trust and the verse says 'obey'
2) I said scholars and the verse says the people
The context being that the majority of people make unsound judgements because of the phenomena of 'sheep herding' and that they are more likely to follow their desires, however, scholars make informed judgements based on their knowledge of Qur'an and Sunnah.
Within the Qur'an it also states how it can lead people astray so the verse you quoted needs to be backed with evidence that it is applicable in this context, if you cannot back that up then your thoughts on this topic are not worth entertaining.
I think Psyah understanding about Heaven is that it's not Spiritual. Perhaps Psyah can shed more light on this.
1) - If we are going to be ressurected in our bodies then what is the purpose of SOUL?
2) - Is heaven a Physical Area?
3) - Are Prophets in heaven in their Physical form or Spiritual?
4) - Do people go to heaven or hell straight after death or will they have to wait till the day of Judgemnet. (Part Question: Are Prophets treated differently from other humans beings when Allah is deciding who to bring to heaven straight away?)
1) The soul's purpose is not in association of the body anyway so the question is mute.
2) I don't know
3) The likelihood is that since Resurrection has not yet taken place that everyone who has died is either in Barzakh in the soul, as the green bird in heaven if died a martyr, or in heaven as a soul if prophet, it does not negate the body being present afte Judgement.
4) There is a waiting time but that time seems like a small duration. Yes, Allah (SWT) treats prophets and martyrs differently.
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
thank you psyah....
I thought the SOUL is related to the person. Every human has a SOUL. You dont have to associate with the body fine at least associate it with the person.
Let me rephrase this:
What is the purpose of SOUL in conjunction with life after death. After ressurction as you say we will be raised in our bodies. What will happen to SOUL. Is SOUL only a temporary thing without any absolute purpose?
Further Question: (feeling bad asking question only but I am only after your personal opinion)
If the Prophets and Martyrs are in heaven in their SOULS will their bodies will also be ressuructed?
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
[QUOTE]
It has been narrated on the authority of Hudhaifa b. al-Yaman who said: People used to ask the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) about the good times, but I used to ask him about bad times fearing lest they overtake me. I said: Messenger of Allah, we were in the midst of ignorance and evil, and then God brought us this good (time through Islam). Is there any bad time after this good one? He said: Yes. I asked: Will there be a good time again after that bad time? He said: Yes, but therein will be a hidden evil. I asked: What will be the evil hidden therein? He said: (That time will witness the rise of) the people who will adopt ways other than mine and seek guidance other than mine. You will know good points as well as bad points. I asked: Will there be a bad time after this good one? He said: Yes. (A time will come) when there will be people standing and inviting at the gates of Hell. Whoso responds to their call they will throw them into the fire. I said: Messenger of Allah, describe them for us. He said: All right. They will be a people having the same complexion as ours and speaking our language. I said: Messenger of Allah, what do you suggest if I happen to live in that time? He said: You should stick to the main body of the Muslims and their leader. I said: If they have no (such thing as the) main body and have no leader? He said: Separate yourself from all these factions, though you may have to eat the roots of trees (in a jungle) until death comes to you and you are in this state.
[/QUOTE]
So which is the main body of Islam?
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
[QUOTE]
It has been narrated (through a different chain of transmitters) on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Who defected from obedience (to the Amir) and separated from the main body of the Muslim-then he died in that state-would die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahillyya. And he who is killed under the banner of a man who is blind (to the cause for which he is fighting), who gets flared up with family pride and fights for his tribe-is not from my Umma, and whoso from my followers attacks my followers (indiscriminately) killing the righteous and the wicked of them, sparing not (even) those staunch in faith and fulfilling not his obligation towards them who have been given a pledge (of security), is not from me (i. e. is not my follower).
[/QUOTE]
So as far as I'm concerned it's not the Shias or Sunnis..
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
[QUOTE]
The truth I see from the Qur'an is not the same as what you see. You may have showed me some things but I showed right back that there is an alternative, do not pretend that this is a clear cut case. At least I have given you the credibility to analyse your argument, you have not even heard mine let alone analyse it. Finally we must use the Sunnah and we must use the consensus of scholars and we must not appoint ourselves authorities to judge what is or is not in contradiction with the Qur'an. This is a failing that you want me to adopt yet at the same time criticise me for using my rationality to debunk your arguments and so far that is all I have been doing I have not been providing my Islamic stance on this matter yet.
[/QUOTE]
Peace psyah,
I come on to GS to check this thread almost regularly. I've been waiting for your Islamic stance on the matter of Isa AS being raised up alive. I hope your exams went good, i seriously am looking for ur stance on this issue.. you cannot really call it an islamic stance, since you dont know the stance you'll be presenting will be an islamic stance.
So , yes... do enlighten me with your knowledge on Isa AS's ascension to skies. I will be waiting.. theres no hurry, you could take as much time as you like. But, please do write about this issue..
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
there is only thing I would like to add to this whole thread.
The jews were expecting Elijah (as)! Who came? John came, with the same character as Elijah and the people of Israel rejected him. What happened to them? The same what happened to the so called Muslim and what is happening.
You know, my uncle received a death threat letter 2 months ago, now my MIL. That is the real face of Islam.
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
BigBoi, there are two users on GS right now, who signed up to this forum because of my discussions here. Atleast, thats what they've told me. 1 of them have been 80% convinced after all the references from Quran that i've given him about the death of Jesus AS. I often talk to him on msn. Let me also tell you, there are many more people who're reading this thread, as well as other threads regarding Ahmadiyya jamaat, and there misconceptions have been removed.
PS: As per this thread, it has got nothing to with Ahmadiyya jamaat. All thats been discussed here is the death/raised up alive of Hazrat Jesus (AS). There will continue to be people around the world who think with their own brains, rather than let someone else do their thinking for them.
BigBoi, there are two users on GS right now, who signed up to this forum because of my discussions here. Atleast, thats what they've told me. 1 of them have been 80% convinced after all the references from Quran that i've given him about the death of Jesus AS. I often talk to him on msn. Let me also tell you, there are many more people who're reading this thread, as well as other threads regarding Ahmadiyya jamaat, and there misconceptions have been removed.
PS: As per this thread, it has got nothing to with Ahmadiyya jamaat. All thats been discussed here is the death/raised up alive of Hazrat Jesus (AS). There will continue to be people around the world who think with their own brains, rather than let someone else do their thinking for them.
Peace Mr.Popat
Thank you for being patient with me. I have done my exam as mentioned before, but I very quickly became busy at work and now I am busy with personal matters. I have just sat down to read the thread and would like to highlight the post above but will not reply just yet to the main topic.
The text in bold black and then in bold red makes me wonder firstly that if your claim is true then those people who use their own brains obviously have become 80% convinced of a one sided argument. If you really want to do stats to demo your effectiveness then I offer to start a GS poll, but that would trivialise this matter. I hope we do not trivialise this matter regardless of the amount any of us needs to wait. I currently have more pressing and better things to do with my time.
BigBoi, there are two users on GS right now, who signed up to this forum because of my discussions here. Atleast, thats what they've told me. 1 of them have been 80% convinced after all the references from Quran that i've given him about the death of Jesus AS. I often talk to him on msn. Let me also tell you, there are many more people who're reading this thread, as well as other threads regarding Ahmadiyya jamaat, and there misconceptions have been removed.
PS: As per this thread, it has got nothing to with Ahmadiyya jamaat. All thats been discussed here is the death/raised up alive of Hazrat Jesus (AS). There will continue to be people around the world who think with their own brains, rather than let someone else do their thinking for them.
**You can tell me what you want. IN THE END EVERYTHING is related to the Ahmadiyya Jamaat. I did not say anything wrong, just mentioned what the jews expected and what they finally got and what the so called muslims are expecting and what they are getting.
The text in bold black and then in bold red makes me wonder firstly that if your claim is true then those people who use their own brains obviously have become 80% convinced of a one sided argument. If you really want to do stats to demo your effectiveness then I offer to start a GS poll, but that would trivialise this matter. I hope we do not trivialise this matter regardless of the amount any of us needs to wait. I currently have more pressing and better things to do with my time.
Any hadith or Quranic verse you can bring to show him (AS) being still alive? if you're busy, i would like to ask other people to kindly show me any verse proving him still alive. I'll appreciate it.
As far as the condition is served the person is the soul and the soul is the person. It is according to the established Muslim belief that we will be raised in our bodies. Afterall “Resurrection” would be a bit incomplete if we do not come back exactly as we are in young adulthood …
Here is a suitable reference to this extent:
Allaah, Glorious is He, will resurrect man on the Day of Resurrection by reconstructing him from his tail bone. People will grow as perfect creatures just as plants grow from seeds, and palm trees from date stones. They will emerge from their graves barefooted, naked, and uncircumcised. They will rush forth like spread out locusts, or dispersed butterflies, and will not miss the way to the Assembly Land. In fact they will know their way to it better than a wild pigeon knows its way to its nest, as they are racing to a target. The first upon whom the earth will crack open is our Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam). He will be the first to regain consciousness. As for the first to be dressed after Resurrection is Khalilur-Rahman (the beloved one of the Merciful) may Allaah exalt his mention, and render him safe from evil. Horror will overtake mankind to the point even Prophets will say on that Day: Myself, myself. He who reads the Verses that deal with Resurrection in the Surahs Al-Qamar, Al-Ma’arij, and Al-Qari’ah, and the like will have more information about that great event. It is authentically reported in both Bukhari and Muslim, that the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) said: You shall be summoned barefooted, naked, and uncircumcised. Then he read and said: **As we began the first creation, so shall We repeat it, a promise binding upon Us. We shall certainly fulfil it. **[1] The first to be dressed on the Day of Resurrection is Ibrahim. While a group of my Ummah will be snatched away to the left side, and I would call out: My followers! It will be said: They apostatized after you left them. And I then will say as the good worshipper (Isa) said: [2] **And I was a witness over them as long as I remained with them, but when You collected me, You were the Watcher over them, and You are witness over everything. If you punish them, they are Your worshippers; and if You forgive them, You are the Mighty, the Wise. **[3] It is also authentically reported that the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) said: Mankind will be shocked to swoon on the Day of Resurrection, and I will be the first upon whom the ground will crack open. [4] It is also authentically reported that the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) said: I will be the first to regain consciousness. [5] You may get further details about the two traditions from the book Al-Aqidah At-Tahawiyah when Imam At-Tahawi talks about the conditions of the people on the Day of Resurrection.
It was an established Christian belief in the Ascension of Isa (AS). Although they believe that Isa (AS) died and was then Resurrected he did eventually go up to heaven in body and soul. You can either refute this reference saying that Christians en masse did not believe this and then you need to provide proof or you can accept they did believe this but deny Christian belief as a valid reference. If you choose to deny this as a valid reference please state your reasons.
The reason why I believe this is not only a valid reference but an essential one is because in the passage from the Qur’an that I will show inshaAllah later the people who are addressed are the People of the Book and it is important to know what their position was at the time of those verses.
Thanks for your post. It infact repeats the same point you mentioned in earlier post but with offcourse a reference. I guess I will have to read about this topic a little more. I was only after your belief on this matter.
However it still doesnt solves the mystery of having a SOUL.
Another question which is bothering me now is: If we are going to be ressurted in our bodies; some people die young, some very old and some in middle age. After ressurction will we all be raised in forms we died? Or will Allah break the LAWs he created earler and make us younger if died old or make infant? (Law of Nature) The only thing we do not know about is SOUL. We dont know its form. We dont know if it ages.
Another question may also arise that will people age in Jannah or Dozakh if they are raised in their body form and then die from age and Allah raise them again and again for infinity!!!
I will actually read about this and get back to you.
Peace psyah,
well, first reference from your side and that too from biblical point of view. I am not concerned with what christian believes are regarding Jesus AS. According to them, He was the son of God. Quran reject this belief and call it a shirk to associate any partner with Allah. The argument here is not what christians have been believing for so long, but rather what Islam has to say about Hazrat Isa AS. I give more importance to Quran than Bible or any other book for that matter. Please provide evidence from Quran or hadith proving his ascension. I am a Muslim, if i were to take the reference you provided as authentic, i would have been a christian. So, please provide evidence from Quran, as i’ve been doing.
Peace psyah,
well, first reference from your side and that too from biblical point of view. I am not concerned with what christian believes are regarding Jesus AS. According to them, He was the son of God. Quran reject this belief and call it a shirk to associate any partner with Allah. The argument here is not what christians have been believing for so long, but rather what Islam has to say about Hazrat Isa AS. I give more importance to Quran than Bible or any other book for that matter. Please provide evidence from Quran or hadith proving his ascension. I am a Muslim, if i were to take the reference you provided as authentic, i would have been a christian. So, please provide evidence from Quran, as i've been doing.
It is important that you understand what the Christians themselves believed in at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an. In order to understand that you need to read up on the Christian sources. I am not telling you to place their sources into your 'aqidah. I am providing the basis for my argument. By providing a Christian reference I am only creating my argument's basis, I am not declaring that my source for belief be placed in it, however, a certain level of trust is required. I'll explain what I am doing ...
I am going to show you inshaAllah that the Christians had a few established beliefs ... the Qur'an's style is not to explain every little detail about previous beliefs, but only to clarify upon what they have been wrong about. This form of addressing I will provide a source for within the Qur'an itself inshaAllah. So please acknowledge that Christians believed:
a) Jesus (AS) was/is God
b) Jesus (AS) was crucified
c) Jesus (AS) went through Ascension
These are Christian beliefs I am not asking you to confirm them as your own, just to confirm that this is what en masse the Christians believed at the time of Muhammad (SAW).
It is important that you understand what the Christians themselves believed in at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an. In order to understand that you need to read up on the Christian sources. I am not telling you to place their sources into your 'aqidah. I am providing the basis for my argument. By providing a Christian reference I am only creating my argument's basis, I am not declaring that my source for belief be placed in it, however, a certain level of trust is required. I'll explain what I am doing ...
I am going to show you inshaAllah that the Christians had a few established beliefs ... the Qur'an's style is not to explain every little detail about previous beliefs, but only to clarify upon what they have been wrong about. This form of addressing I will provide a source for within the Qur'an itself inshaAllah. So please acknowledge that Christians believed:
a) Jesus (AS) was/is God
b) Jesus (AS) was crucified
c) Jesus (AS) went through Ascension
These are Christian beliefs I am not asking you to confirm them as your own, just to confirm that this is what en masse the Christians believed at the time of Muhammad (SAW).
Peace psyah,
I am not concerned with what the majority of Christians believed at the time of Muhammad PBUH. They must be believing what you said above. I am not denying that. I know exactly what your next post is goin to be ( you will refute point a and b from Quran and leave C , and will insist that because there is no refutation of point C, thus their belief of ascension stand corrected ...whereas, i have written many times and given evidence from Quran refuting the belief of ascension as well ). What I am more concerned is Quran or any Hadith which actually says that Jesus AS will return bodily.