peace psyah,
I hope you do realize whatever you have said thus far in this thread is merely based on merely your assumptions.
Peace Mr. Popat
You should not say things like this, first of all it must be remarkable that all the Ahl-us-Sunnah are making the same assumptions. Also, there are established comments from the past to date which is where I have simply taken my material. I have not cited them to keep the thread simple and reduce the complexity. Other parts I have quoted Qur'anic ayat and given established tafsir on them, why is it that you insist on saying that it is my assumptions?
The dead never return from their otherworldly abode. Once departed, none has ever paid a second visit to begin mixing with the living. Never has God brought back any dwellers of the past. Those who literally await the return of Jesus may continue to do so till eternity. He will never come, nor will the Mullah ever quit his demagogic command over the Muslim world. Left forever at the mercy of the Mullah, who knows no mercy, the masses are duped to wait in vain for the return of Jesusas bearing a cup of elixir in his hand. Islam will continue to suffer year after year, century after century under the despotic rule of the Muslim clergy.
First of all your claims that no one has departed from this world to heaven and then returned. I reject that on the grounds of established Muslims beliefs that it has happened. Also, even if you were right that it is has never happened, it does not mean that it won't happen. If it is in prophecy that it will happen then it will happen. These pattens that you look for is not elementary to the method of depicting truth from Qur'an and Sunnah. Had your methods been accurate then Allah (SWT) had never saved a nation by parting a sea before it was done with Musa (AS) and his people. Are you going to reject that on the grounds that it had never before been done? This I am going to call the "The Fallacy of God Prediction" and you have committed it. In that you try to prove a habitual nature of God is present and predictable based on what happensin our experiences. Next time you use it I will simply say refer to this term.
I beg to remind you that when religion is interpreted without rationality, when faith is divorced of reason, all that they give birth to are myths without legitimacy and legends without substance. Mindless trustees of faith succeed only in making a mockery of Divine wisdom.
Let the world of Islam get rid of this fantasy once and for all and let the clerics who nurture it get lost. The death of their age will usher in the age of the revival of Islam.
I beg to remind in my humble opinion that it is you who have failed to use consistency in argumentation and now you are using the opportunity to make conclusions. Who said this discussion is over? Whose conclusions are you summarising? At least do me the courtesy that I am doing you which is honestly showing where we differ, instead of impressing my point to be true and yours to be false, I am merely condensing our discussion to the points where we differ. Can you not do the same without making grand speeches?
Truth has been showed to you right from Quran, I take it as my duty to invite you to the truth. You do know that anything you say, you'll be attacked by thousands of questions which you will never have answers for and all you will be doing from your side will be to keep on defending your beliefs based on your assumptions, instead of from Quran , the base of the debate that we made.
The truth I see from the Qur'an is not the same as what you see. You may have showed me some things but I showed right back that there is an alternative, do not pretend that this is a clear cut case. At least I have given you the credibility to analyse your argument, you have not even heard mine let alone analyse it. Finally we must use the Sunnah and we must use the consensus of scholars and we must not appoint ourselves authorities to judge what is or is not in contradiction with the Qur'an. This is a failing that you want me to adopt yet at the same time criticise me for using my rationality to debunk your arguments and so far that is all I have been doing I have not been providing my Islamic stance on this matter yet.
Lets settle this first.. according to you, when one is NOT on earth, s/he is NOT aging. That is what you meant right? Jesus AS was , is , and never can be an exception. He AS was a true messenger of Allah just like Abraham , Noah, Lut ( May Allah be pleased with them all ) were. I have provided you several times the verses which indicates His AS death, yet you on other hand give priority to your Mullah's interpretation , instead of neutrally thinking about it yourself.
None of what you have written is relevant, you are trying to rationalise by using external references without the authority to do so. All prophets have received something special that other prophets did not receive, so your argument is already thrown out. And if you do not accept it I will not impress my conditions on you like you are trying to do with me. I will simply say that you believe such and such and I believe in such and such and move on. I hope you can keep things civil and mature and can stop yourself getting too eager to convert me, as you can see I am not doing the same with you. I am simply showing there are similarities between us but there are points where we part, I want to isolate those parts where we differ that is all.
You believe? you do realize spirit and body are two different things. Dead people DO NOT accompany the alives. Either the heaven is a physical place (in that case , each and every individual who dies must be raised up alive bodily), OR that its a spiritual place, where our souls go after an appointed time ( in which case, Jesus AS could not be alive bodily in a spirtualistic place ). Either spiritual, or physical, make up your mind bro.
It could however be of another substance entirely, it also does not mean that if it is spiritual that is must contain spirit and if it is physical it must contain the physical after all this world is physical and the soul can reside here. Unless you have a scriptural statement it is neither your logic nor mine that we can apply to determine what is or is not possible in the ghaib, however, evidence is enough to show that certain things will happen all I am doing is casting doubt I am not making conclusion, by casting doubt I am presenting the possibility of other valid interpretations. And don't get me wrong here ... I agree with you that some scholars differ because of this possibility but the majority is where we should side not with the few who differ.
PS: i've said it before, and ill say it again, i come here to learn and to seek truth. If i happen to be convinced by you that He AS is still alive in the heavens and if this belief doesnt contradict with other verses from Quran, i hereby announce that i will discard this belief and will believe him being alive. I urge you to do the same. I have provided you several verses from Quran, all you did is to give assumptions.. i.e: he might be sleeping, he is not bound to earth rules, time doesnt play a role, He AS is not aging.. where are you getting these senseless beliefs bro? i seriously am very amazed.
PS2: should i wait for your answers as you asked me to wait for a week and its been a week already.. ( the questions i raised earlier to which you said you needed time to write ). Thanks.
Mr. Popat you should know by now that I am not making up "senseless beliefs" and you should know that the majority of scholars is where I place my trust and not in my logic or your logic. It sounds weird doesn't it to not trust logic, but logic is limited, because it operates on setting conditions which themselves could be subject to error. What is the point being true when that truth is within the confines of an erroneous set of parameters?
My point of saying that he is not aging you will see in previous posts is that it is my (personal point of view) and it comes from a deduction process from hadith and the New Testament. I also have a small point to make about using previous scipture as evidence and why I use certain parts of it and reject other parts of it. All of this is covered.
