Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

Society Religion & Philosophy
181

Peace Mr. Popat

That is good you have saved me the effort. However, I want to do more than merely claim on a logical basis that Qur'an leaves out denying Ascension and hence supports it. I want to show you how it actually promotes Ascension. With regards to your alleged evidence of refuting belief in Ascension this was not shown by you and for all the posts you have given I have previously provided an alternative valid understanding. Let's not forget our previous discussions now.

We will move on to hadith later. Firstly I want to set the scene and it is clear that you understand my point, but before I jump to it, I want you to give me a definition for the term CLARIFICATION and how this term differs from EXPLANATION.

Wht r u doing ?
182

oops.. i totally forgot about this thread..

your alternative points were only based on what you believe could have happened. Your 'alternative valid understanding' were not supported by Quran or hadith. Lets also not forget the points you raised of how He AS could be asleep, or that He being not on earth does not require him to obey Earthly laws.. etc.. which I responded to you.

ok so yeah, do show how Qur'an supports ascension.

Clarification = its an interpretation that removes obstacles..
Explanation = the act of explaining.

183

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

what happened to this thread? some interesting debate was going on which i was following..

184

Frozenfire, I am interested in this thread too, if Brother Psyah doesn’t mind me taking part.

Even though I have not read the posts on this thread, but looking at topic, I know exactly what some of the users are talking, their usual standard approach, knowledge obtained from their pocket books. I can petty much pin point from where all the points were coming and what would happen to them if really relevant questions are asked. Question which are not listed in their pocket books

There is a famous verse in the Holy Quran; these posters arguments usually circle around this article.

[QUOTE]

3:55 (Picktall) (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me

3:55 (Y. Ali) Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself

3:55 (Asad) *Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalted thee unto Me; *

[/QUOTE]

I have posted partial verse, and translations of three translators. I know which translation one party likes; it is the last one, “cause thee to die”.

We will come to the meanings of the words like “Mutafaki” and “Rafaki” but I will start with a very simple question on this verse.

When this conversation between Isa As and Allah SWT did take place?

I am sure our resident scholars, sources of whose knowledge is well known to me, could easily answer this question. It will be very easy for them to divulge in to the vast amount of information available to them.

*Or can they? *

185

I know Mr. Popat would not answer my posts and questions asked by me.

Nevertheless, I want to bring to the attention of my Muslim Brothers and Sister the true intentions of Mr. Popat to open this thread.

He quoted this verse at the start of the thread.

[QUOTE]
2:111 - " produce your proof , if you are truthful "
[/QUOTE]

I am therefore entitled to demand the same from Mr. Popat; to bring his proofs if he is truthful.

He continued further and writes;

[QUOTE]

I would like to have discussion on this issue based ONLY on Quran and Ahadith. Keep in mind, I will not be bringing anything from the beliefs of the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam. Everything will be said here according to the teachings of Quran and ahadith.

[/QUOTE]

1- Fact of the matter is he is not truthful in his approach; he says that only Quran or Hadiths should be the source. The** fact is there were Muslims 1000 years before Mirza who have written extensively that according to the Holy Quran Jesus AS has died.** There were some very famous Mufassirs of the Holy Quran who have written extensively on this subject. Work of some of them had been plagiarized by Mirza. I can easily prove this.

2- Secondly** not one Muslim who try to prove the death of Isa As from the Holy Quran ever said, that he As died in Kashmir at the age of 120/125,** which Mirza claimed. So death is not the only issue here, death or concept of it existed in the Muslims Ummah for 1000 years before Mirza was born.

3- No Muslim who believed or believe that Isa As has died, jumped up and claimed that he is the second coming of Isa As in the shape of burooz, zil and hulul etc. etc. Therefore, if Jesus As is dead, then no one can take his place. There is absolutely no concept of re-incarnation in the Holy Quran and Islam.

After claiming no question of Qadiani dogma here, he stated his true motives

[QUOTE]

Lets have a very healthy and topic related discussion here. No question about jamaat e Ahmadiyya here. Though, this discussion may lead some people to think and understand about the claims that the founder of ahmadiyya jamaat made.

[/QUOTE]

*Clear cut proof of Mr. Popat’s hiding the truth and true purpose of him opening this thread. *

Even Bob Woolmer (and another brother) picked on the cleverness and his tricks, he wrote;

[QUOTE]

I can verify to this, The translations are incorrect. and therefore we must not take this thread so serious since its one sided. Even thought the poster said Not to question Ahmadiya , but this makes it question since the referances are one sided ahmadiya.

please make up your mind poster and give us the translation according to the MAJORITY. only then this will prevent people from questioning the ahmadiya.

[/QUOTE]

I have a message for Mr. Popat if it can lead people to understand about the claims of Mirza then it can also lead for people to understand fallacy of his claims. This is a fair assumption and also the template to work on and debate.

These are his true motives; I therefore, will prove that Mirza was wrong; his claims were based on very dodgy, questionable and in many cases manufactured evidence. Everyone should remember it is not only the death of Isa As we are concerned. Many Muslims were of that opinion and still are, but no one believe or claim that he As died in Kashmir at the age of 120/125. Nor anyone believes that after his AS death someone else could take his place.

I hope every Muslim on this forum understand these clarifications, which was not made by Mr. Popat, even though his intentions are obvious, he wanted us Muslims to understand the claims of Mirza.

Therefore, onus is on Mr. Popat to prove from Holy Quran death of Isa As at the age of 120/125 in Kashmir as claimed by Mirza. For us to understand the claims of Mirza, as Mr. Popat stated.

He also bears burden to show proofs to us Muslims from the Holy Quran that concepts of second coming, Buroz, Zil, transmigration of the soul, i.e. re-incarnation are Islamic ideas and permitted by Allah SWT in the Holy Quran.

I have already given the first task to Mr. Popat or anyone else who wants to try.

*When did the conversation quoted from the verse 3:55 took place between Allah SWT and Isa AS? *

I am sure they wouldn’t have any difficulty to prove it to a novice like me. Or can they?

*It would be a shame if 100 years of so called scholarly work go to waste to prove a point, by their failure to answer my questions. *

186

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

firstly, prove the verses i provided wrong and we'll discuss further. Read the thread first and then come up with your replies.

secondly, Stop trying to pretend you know everything. I am not interested in your claims of how much you know but interested in whether or not you can prove His ascension.

Look buddy , the only way we can have a healthy discussion is if you respect me. I said it up front not to question jamaat e ahmadiyya in this thread. Your tone of discussion is by no way acceptable. It needs to be a bit more mature. You need to quit praising your own self. What I also suggest you is to quit accusing jamaat e ahmadiyya, whether directly or indirectly. Following is one example:

[QUOTE]
It would be a shame if 100 years of so called scholarly work go to waste to prove a point, by their failure to answer my questions.
[/QUOTE]
I do not want you having this tone of discussion in this thread. If you do, you will not be getting my replies and me not replying to you should not be taken as if i do not know the answer, but rather because of my own self respect. I'll respect you,and will expect the same from your side. Not asking for much am I ?

PS: please read the entire thread before bringing same arguments/questions again. Quote me where ever you feel you need to add something or that you know the answer. Thank you.

PS2: if you address me , i will read it. You do not need to highlight them in red. It may have proven your points else where, but highlighting will not help you much here.

Timepass - March 2014
187

[QUOTE]
Firstly, prove the verses I provided wrong and we'll discuss further. Read the thread first and then come up with your replies.
[/QUOTE]
I do not have to worry about what you have done as a cut and paste job from your resources, nor have I to read it. I am ready to face whatever you produce. I have started with a very simple question, which is on the famous verse you and your Jamatis always use as a proof of death of Prophet ISA AS. I suggest you answer that simple question.

Let it be known,** I am not interested in your cut and paste jobs*. I want you to answer my questions, starting with the first already posted. **It is easy to cut and paste, but very difficulty to answer the questions, answers to which are not given in the pocket books. *

Therefore, Mr. Popat, start answering my first question, thank you. *I can unravel whole of your argument from the answer of this question. This is a guarantee. And don’t write further negation, I am making it clear, prove me wrong instead of writing useless things. *

[QUOTE]
I do not want you having this tone of discussion in this thread. If you do, you will not be getting my replies and me not replying to you should not be taken as if I do not know the answer,
[/QUOTE]
There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I wrote. You were not expecting praises for your cut and paste job; did you?

You are just trying to make excuses in advance, so you can avoid the tough questions which are to follow when you give the first answer. Mr. Popat even if you don’t give me answers, can you avoid the unavoidable? I can still open my own thread and expose your Mirza and your Jamat on this topic. I have already started work on three articles on this very topic, which always had been my intention from the start. I was just building up to it by exposing Mirza first. But I have put this work on the back burner just for the moment.

A new thread will be open by me this weekend, where answer would be given to cut and paste job of another of your Jamati on the issue of Mirza’s claims that he was taught Arabic by Allah SWT (nauzobillah), with proofs you would never be able to deny. I suggest you should get ready to defend Mirza. That would be an eye opener for my Muslim Brothers and Sisters on this site.

188

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

You know what your problem is crank , dont you? you dont have time to read my posts but have tons of time to praise your own self. Out of all the replies I have given in this thread to psyah, none of which was copied from anywhere from the entire internet. If you read them and can provide the website from which I have been copying, I hereby swear upon Allah I will agree to each and every point you will raise. This is my word to you. The fact that you will not read the discussion I had with psyah on this thread makes me wonder what your intentions are? Fear Allah and stop accusing Allah's humble servants. I do not want this thread to be closed. If you have anything useful regarding the topic in hand , please do share and we'll discuss it. Any irrelevant post will be asked to be removed.

On a bright side, just to give you a bit of happiness , even if you prove me wrong with my understanding on Isa (AS)'s death, according to you, I will still be considered a "Muslim". For a Muslim, it is not compulsory to believe Isa (AS)'s ascension as you said Muslims Before Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS)'s have believed Him dead as well. I am Muslim as I believe Quran as my guidance and the final word of Allah to the mankind.

PS: Drop the red highlighting from your posts. It only makes you look ignorant.

189

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

Please provide me with the Muslim scholar names whom have said that Isa (AS)'s is dead. Also, do provide me what other scholars say about those scholars who talked about ISA(AS)'s death. Have they issued fatwa against them or whether they also accepted their interpretation of Quran that Isa (AS) in fact is dead.

190

[QUOTE]
[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
[/QUOTE]

Since you provided 3 of the interpretation of the same verse, I think each three of them are acceptable by you. ( unless, you want me to go word by word on the issue of "case thee to die" or the other translation given by you..) Hence, I will be using the 3rd interpretation given by you and have provided you with the full verse.

When this conversation took place ?

If you read verses prior to this verse and a couple of verses after that verse, you will realize that Allah was talking to Jesus (AS) when Jews were giving Him some very hard time. Thus, Allah promised Him 4 promises in that verse.
1) cause you to die
2)exalt thee to myself
3) free him from the charges
4) given superiority over others.

According to all these 4 promises of Allah given to Jesus (AS), all of which have been fulfilled. Lets start from 2nd point and come back to 1st point later. Allah told Him that He will make him return to him. How? by 'causing you to die'. He will be freed from the charges that Jews put on him (illegitimate birth) , by approving in Quran that He indeed had a virgin birth, and that His mother was a pious lady. 4th is to give superiority over others.. that indeed is true too.

When all the latter 3 promises were fulfilled by Allah, the first promise must have also been fulfilled.

Keep in mind , in that verse, theres a usage of Mutawafika and wa rafiuka. If Mutawafika according to you means to raise bodily , then the word rafiuka shouldnt have been there. One must then admit that either one of them must mean 'death'

191

[QUOTE]
You know what your problem is crank , dont you? you dont have time to read my posts but have tons of time to praise your own self.
[/QUOTE]
Hmmmmmm, what questions did I asked you to answer? Let me re-produce it again,

When did the conversation quoted from the verse 3:55 took place between Allah SWT and Isa AS?

Do me a favor follow your own advice and answer my question.
I can also provide evidence of your self boasting from your recent post, which I wouldn’t do.

[QUOTE]
If you read verses prior to this verse and a couple of verses after that verse, you will realize that Allah was talking to Jesus (AS) when Jews were giving Him some very hard time.
[/QUOTE]
I asked you the question not the meanings of the words or what 4 promises given to Isa As. Fact of the matter is according to your Mirza. Jewish were leveling grave allegations on Prophet Isa As and his As mother Mariam AS from the time of his AS birth, and in case of his As mother, even before his As birth.

Therefore, saying when Jews were giving him As very hard time, is not good enough, that hard time lasted almost 33 years.

I want to know exactly and precisely when this conversation took place, what was the exact occasion.

[QUOTE]
Please provide me with the Muslim scholar names whom have said that Isa (AS)'s is dead.
[/QUOTE]
Oh don’t you worry, I am going to provide you more than that, I am going to provide you lots of undeniable evidence which will open your eyes; and My Muslim Brothers and Sisters too, will learn a lot.

You see you have done this again, you say you are not talking of Qadiani’s dogma, but you re-introduced the translations of your Jamat, despite me highlighting that two brothers have already objected to your deceptive approach. I can keep you on deceptive translations you introduced for some time if I wish, but for time being I am not interested in it. I want precise answer of my question first.

I provided 3 translations to gave three 3 different point of views of the Muslims.

Translations by Asad does say “cause you to die” which is what your contention is. Even thought there is a huge difference between the translations of Asad and the one you deceptively introduced from your Jamat’s resources.

You can select Asad's translations if you wish for the debate with me. I am not worried about it. But one condition, if you accept his translation for this verse then you have to accept his translations for every verse on the topic of death of Isa As. You are not in the position to pick and choose.

But that is not the point at the moment; I surely will come back to it. I want my question answered first.

I dare you to answer the question. No need to quote anything, no need to provide meanings of the words, just answer my simple question. You based all your dogma on this verse; you should be able to tell me when this conversation between Allah SWT and Isa AS took place?

All your intelligence and truthfulness will be exposed by me from the answer of this question.

To all my Muslim Brothers and Sisters, Mr. Popat will not answer this simple question precisely and honestly. He will bring everything else but he will not answer the question. He tried to blame me of not reading the whole thread. What is the point if he can not provide answer to simple questions? All what he has written is null and void. Because he knows if he answers this question, game is over, before it started. I guarantee this to all my Muslim Brother and Sisters, all their arguments will fail once the answer is given. From now on I will keep reposting my question, until Mr. Popat gives a honest and straight answer of my question.

192

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

I suggest you keep your post to the point and not address anyone else but me. Keep your posts short and directly related to the topic. Do not bring my beliefs in it. Lets talk about Isa (AS)'s based on Quran.

Again, when did the conversation took place between Allah and Isa (AS) ?

Answer : This conversation took place when Isa (AS) was alive. If it had taken place after His bodily ascension the verse would have been something like " I have cause thee to die" but the fact that it says "will cause thee to die" explains He AS at that time still was alive. You will then say that it means He AS still is alive ? Well, the 4 promises made by Allah out of which 3 have been fulfilled, the first one should have been fulfilled too.

Also, keep in mind the pattern in which Allah promised Isa (AS). He will first give him death and then fulfill all the other promises ( exalting,freeing from wrong charges, giving superiority to those who believed him etc. ). For all the other 3 promises to be fulfilled, Allah must have to give him death.

Quote me specifically where you dont understand. If everything is fine, then quote me from the first page of this thread where i mentioned a couple of verses proving His (AS) death. If you have something to add to them, quote me and ill reply.

If you want i can quote myself and can wait for your replies on it?

last time you said I love you
193

Mr. Popat

Forget what you have written in the thread before, I told you I am not interested in those verses, not yet anyway. Now let’s take a look at your answer;

[QUOTE]
Answer : This conversation took place when Isa (AS) was alive. If it had taken place after His bodily ascension the verse would have been something like " I have cause thee to die" but the fact that it says "will cause thee to die" explains He AS at that time still was alive. You will then say that it means He AS still is alive ? Well, the 4 promises made by Allah out of which 3 have been fulfilled, the first one should have been fulfilled too.
[/QUOTE]
Don’t worry about points yet, it will be a long time before you can go to any point if at all.

Duh, we all know that it could have only taken place when Isa As was alive, it couldn’t have taken place when he As became dead according to your contentions. Thank you for enlightening us that it took place when he As was alive (according to you).

You say it took place when Isa As was alive. According to Mirza he As was alive for 120/125 before he As died in Kashmir. As a matter of fact now you have **increase the period from 33 years to 125 **years.

But let me remind you; what you written before;

[QUOTE]
you will realize that Allah was talking to Jesus (AS) when Jews were giving Him some very hard time.
[/QUOTE]
*Please tell us, Jews were giving Jesus hard time in Kashmir too? *

Let me repeat my first questions again, *when exactly did this conversation between Allah SWT and Isa AS take place? *

Honest answers would do, thank you.

My Muslim Brothers and Sister, I told you Mr. Popat will not answer this question honestly and precisely. It is not in his pocket book. He is not sure what will hit him if he commits himself. This is the limit of these people's knowledge of the Holy Quran. Then he has the audacity to quote so many verses, when he is not capable to answer a simple question precisely and accurately, despite of his and his Jamat’s focus on this verse.

194

You are very welcome. I am glad I could help.

33 or 125 years. Do not switch the topic. Topic is that He (AS) died. Simple as that. 33 years or 125 years is another debate and we're not talking about that here. You asked for the answer, you get the answer.

Its a whole new topic altogether. Again, i ask you to not bring Ahmadiyya jamaat in here. Jesus (AS) where ever he went was being accused of illegitimate birth. Thus, Allah has freed him from this in Quran. Kashmir or else where is not what the verse you provided ask me to reply. When did that conversation took place? answer I have given is that when he (AS) was alive. Doesnt matter where He went once he survived crucifixion. Allah has given Him the assurance that you (Jesus AS) will be given death the natural way and will not be killed by the hands of the jews ( jews plan of killing him will always fail ).

are you friggin kidding me man??? why are you grabbing your "muslim brothers and sisters" here for? In that category of Muslims will also be those who admit Jesus (AS)'s natural death ( because thats what u said earlier ). Are you gathering them also over here? seriously, what is wrong with you? I have given the answer, wait for my reply and then ill wait for yours.. why are you insisting other members to praise you, when you dont deserve any? Be a bit more mature man.

195

Mr. Popat,

It is you who has written that this conversation took place during his As life (according to you).

It is a fact that Mirza said Isa As died at the age of 120/125 in Kashmir. Therefore you are extending this period to 125 years, because that’s how long he As was alive according to you.

You shouldn’t blame me; you wrote that this way we Muslims would understand Mirza’s claims. I already told you, you were not truthful in your intentions. **I also wrote that **Muslim who thinks Quran proves his AS death they do not link it to him As died in Kashmir at the age of 120/125. Moot point, none of them claimed prophet hood on the basis of it. This is the real issue you wanted to bring in to the forth from back door, without disclosing your true intentions.

[QUOTE]
answer I have given is that when he (AS) was alive. Doesnt matter where He went once he survived crucifixion. Allah has given Him the assurance that you (Jesus AS) will be given death the natural way and will not be killed by the hands of the jews ( jews plan of killing him will always fail ).
[/QUOTE]

I lost count how many times I have asked you when did this conversation between Prophet Isa As and Allah SWT taken place?

You despite dilly dallying still have not answer the question. For the last time, I need to know precisely when? I am not interested in 33 years or 125 years of his As life, I want to know exactly when?

Mr. Popat I know and all the Muslim Brothers and Sisters reading this thread also are aware, you know the answer, you know precise time, but you will not write precise time of this conversation. The moment you do, your game is over. Therefore, you should follow your own advice and give a simple honest answer. I will keep insisting, unless you give the precise answer.

My Muslims Brothers and Sisters, didn’t I say Mr. Popat will not answer this simple question, honestly and precisely? They have made a mountain out of this particular verse in the Holy Quran, but alas, they can not answer one simple question to start the real debate. It shows the true extent of their knowledge of the Holy Quran. You can see how many pages Mr. Popat has produced on this thread, but now under the microscope he is all lost. This is just the start, more he persist, more difficulties awaits him. He can not justified their own writings and tell us when it did happen in 125 years of Isa As life according to them.

196

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

I do not know when exactly it happens. If you know please also do let me know as well. It happens in His lifetime. As i said earlier, the time when it happens make no difference whatsoever. Perhaps you know what date/day/year this conversation took place and what exactly was Jesus (AS) doing at that particular moment and what He (AS) was wearing?

I humbly request you brother crankthatskunk, to know what it is here that we are talking about. If I am wrong, it is your duty to put forth the facts from Quran and convince me.

When the conversation took place and what was the age at which He (AS) died is irrelevant here. Please do let me know how would the answer of these question make one think He (AS) is alive? as i said earlier, i do not know when 'exactly' that conversation took place and what kind of weather it was at that time. I urge you to put forth the information about the conversation and we'll take it from there?

Dying at the age of 33 or 125 is not relevant. When the conversation took place may be relevant, and hence i kindly request you to enlighten me. Thank you very much.

Timepass - March 2014
197

[QUOTE]
I do not know when exactly it happens. If you know please also do let me know as well. It happens in His lifetime.
[/QUOTE]
1- Mr. Popat thank you for at least admitting that you do not want to tell us when it happened. You once again are not entirely truthful when you say, you don’t know it. Please don’t ask me to provide you the answer, it is your responsibility.

2- You once again insisted on his As life time; this once again opens up the question are you taking about 125 years of his As life or 33 years of his As life? And no point of denying it you started this thread with the intentions to make Muslims understand the claims of Mirza. This 125 years is the claim of Mirza therefore, I am perfectly entitle to ask you this question again. You have to answer it truthfully, which length of life you are referring to?

3- If you mean Isa As whole life which is 125 years according to Mirza and you, then you have to give me the straight answer, did Jews gave Isa As hard time after his migration to Kashmir? This is once again very legitimate question to ask, as you said this conversation happened because Jews were giving Isa As hard time and wanted to kill him AS.

Mr. Popat you should know the rules of an honest debate. A person who makes the claims has the burden of proof squarely on his shoulder to prove his claims. I am perfectly entitled to ask you these questions in the light of your own statements. I am expecting honest and straight forward answers.

You probably not realizing it but you are losing credibility fast. I once again demand straight answers. You have conceded on first point that’s you don’t know exact time, give answers to the remaining questions, and clarify your own statements.

[QUOTE]
the time when it happens make no difference whatsoever. Perhaps you know what date/day/year this conversation took place and what exactly was Jesus (AS) doing at that particular moment and what He (AS) was wearing?
[/QUOTE]
This is once again not very honest, I never said to you give me exact minute and second or what Isa As was wearing, *I only wanted to know what incident in his As life sparked this conversation between Allah SWT and Isa As. *

*Mr. Popat every one who is reading these posts is aware when this conversation took place, they also know that you deliberately do not want to answer the question. My job is done on this point. *

You are also wrong to write that I have to prove. No Mr. Popat you have to prove that Isa As has died at the age of 120/125 in Kashmir, in the context that you wanted us Muslims to understand the claims of Mirza. I have started to take part on this thread only on those two points which I have already stated. I have very clearly stated that idea of death of Jesus from Holy Quran was prevalent in Muslim Ummah for 1000 years before Mirza.

Therefore, you have to prove that what Mirza did was extraordinary, and prove that Jesus died in Kashmir at the age of 120/125. And also that after his As death some one can come as his re-incarnation proofs from the Holy Quran. This is the only difference between Mirza and earliest Muslims who believed Isa As has died according to the Holy Quran.

[QUOTE]
When the conversation took place and what was the age at which He (AS) died is irrelevant here
[/QUOTE]
It is absolutely relevant, that is the difference between the Muslims who believed or believe on his As death according to the Holy Quran and Mirza’s and yours idea of his AS death. Why you think I have started the debate with this question?

Despite whatever you think or have written, I always know what I am doing. This will become clearer to you every step of the way.

[QUOTE]
Please do let me know how would the answer of these question make one think He (AS) is alive?
[/QUOTE]
Mr. Popat you are making me laugh now. Have you not realise until now I am debating with you with your chosen meanings of the first part of the verse 3:55 from Asad’s translations “cause you to die”?

I gave you three choices from different Mufassirs to choose, you have chosen this “causes you to die”, actually you have chosen it from the start on this thread, when I was not even on this forum. It is your thread, it is you who has to prove that Isa As has died and not only this but that he died at the age of 120/125 in Kashmir according to Mirza. After all you want us Muslims to understand claims of Mirza. Don’t you?

To my Muslim Brothers and Sisters the difference between I and Popat is that he is reading from his sheet, even though he does not want to admit it. But he is lost once he is asked a question answer to which he has not read before. On the other hand all my ideas are my own ideas, which are protected by Copy Rights Laws. Whatever, I write on my Weblog or in the debates on any forum, is protected as my intellectual property, according to the world recognized Laws. I know many of my ideas from my past debates have been copied and are in circulation on the internet. I keep copy of anything substantial I write on any Forum as a proof of my intellectual property. In this thread and some others, you are going to read some points, angles and questions, which you may have never come across. All the legal mumbo jumbo out of the way; let me concentrate on furthering this debate.

My next Question to Mr. Popat.

*Did Allah SWT ever have this kind of conversation with Prophet Muhammad SAW in the Holy Quran? Let me clarify I am looking for the exact phrase used “cause you to die”. *

This is very simple factual question, like the one before. I hope you will give me a very straight answer. This question is perfectly legitimate and is written in the light of your own statement in your earlier post. I will ask the next question and show you where and what you write, and why this Question is asked.

I hope just a simple yes or no answer would do, it is factual, either it is mentioned in the Holy Quran or it is not. Let’s hope you can give me a very simple straight answer this time, thank you.

198

Listen... we are not here to know who knows how much, and on what issue. We are all here to learn. When I say I do NOT know the time frame of the conversation that means i do NOT know it. Do not accuse me of being dishonest about something that I have no idea about. Please enlighten me as well, if you do not, you are earning sin for not telling the truth to someone who wanted to know.

I never insisted on His age. The standard on which we are talking about is Quran and hadith. Why would i prove His age from the writings of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) whom you do not accept? does not make sense to me. What we both believe in is Quran. Now, if from Quran you can prove his existence .. i will have no choice but to believe it. His age is NOT relevant here. If it is, why do you have hard time telling me? I am here to learn.

125 or 33. Even you cannot prove He ascended to heavens bodily at the age of 33 from Quran, neither have i asked you to.

Did Jews give hard time to Isa (AS) in Kashmir? what kind of treatment would you expect from Jews ? Again, dying in Kashmir is not the discussion here. Ascension to heaven bodily is. Keep it straight forward.

:D what a joke! Claim i made was that He (AS) is dead. He (AS) is NO LONGER alive bodily anywhere. I have made this claim, i provided you with the verses from Quran that supports my side. Dont tell me how an 'honest' debate is held. I have seen many of your types already. Your job is to come up with either the other meaning of the verses i provided to prove me wrong or show me how/why I am wrong. I am willing to listen. But the fact that you keep bringing jamaat e Ahmadiyya in it is by no means acceptable and will not be replied.

Straight forward answer you ask? it cannot get any straighter than that. It should hit right on head. >> I DO NOT know the time when the conversation was held. If it is relevant ...Let me know or quit this non-sense. What other questions were raised by you?

What have you been smoking lately? I do not expect you to know the exact minute but want you to let me know when it happened as i DO NOT know. What is there to be so proud of?

Who made you represent of whoever is reading these posts?? You have some sort of problem which needs attention of psychologists.. lol @ everyone who is reading these posts are aware when this conversation took place.. I DONT ! if anyone else knew they would have written something.

Thread is about Quran and ahadith which me and you both agree upon. Talk to me in regards to Quran and hadith ... but you never will. I neither have to prove he (AS) died at the age of 120 , nor will i ask you to prove he ascended up in heavens at the age of 33. This discussion could only take place when proof of Isa (AS)'s death is shown and then we can talk about His age. Do not write anymore on this stuff please. Talk to me in regards to what Quran has to say about Isa (AS). I am not interested in any other writing for now.

If age is relevant , provide me with the information.

Despite whatever you think or have written, I always know what I am doing. This will become clearer to you every step of the way.

To my Muslim Brothers and Sisters the difference between I and Popat is that he is reading from his sheet, even though he does not want to admit it. But he is lost once he is asked a question answer to which he has not read before. On the other hand all my ideas are my own ideas, which are protected by Copy Rights Laws. Whatever, I write on my Weblog or in the debates on any forum, is protected as my intellectual property, according to the world recognized Laws. I know many of my ideas from my past debates have been copied and are in circulation on the internet. I keep copy of anything substantial I write on any Forum as a proof of my intellectual property. In this thread and some others, you are going to read some points, angles and questions, which you may have never come across. All the legal mumbo jumbo out of the way; let me concentrate on furthering this debate.
[/QUOTE]

I am not divinely guided and hence the need of research from my side arise. Yes, I do not know at what time the conversation took place , because I have never thought as it could be important too. I also have never read anything in regards to the verse in which the conversation took place. You on other hand are not willing to listen even one bit, which is making this debate useless. I said age doesnt matter, and you said it does.. but failed to tell me 'why' it does?

Look at you praising all yourself. I will never praise myself and I will continue to thank Allah for giving me the capacity to know right from wrong and I will continue to pray to Allah to give me more and more knowledge and to lead me to right path , whichever one it may be. If I am wrong in my judgement , it is your duty to tell me why?

My next Question to Mr. Popat.

*Did Allah SWT ever have this kind of conversation with Prophet Muhammad SAW in the Holy Quran? Let me clarify I am looking for the exact phrase used “cause you to die”. *

[/QUOTE]

Question can wait until you give me the information on conversation. Thank you.

199

Mr. Popat,

My sincere advice to you; cut this non-sense. It is you who has started this thread, and it is you who wanted us Muslims to know the claims of Mirza for the death of Isa AS.

I am asking you the questions in this regard from the Holy Quran. I have already told you this fact many times; I am not going to keep repeating it. *Onus is squarely on you to prove the death of Isa As from the Holy Quran according to the teachings of Mirza. Not according to the understanding of some Muslims who were of this opinion 1000 years before Mirza. *

Both of my questions were from Holy Quran. Until now, you have failed to answer both of them. It is entirely up to you, if you answer it or not. If you don’t then you already proved it to us Muslims that Mirza’s claims in this regard are frivolous, because you despite writing pages after pages can not answer very simple fundamental questions on this issue.

To My Muslim Brothers and Sisters, as *I predicted Mr. Popat wouldn’t answer simple questions posed to him from the Holy Quran. His intelligence and credibility is destroyed from the first question asked. This is their fundamental belief that Jesus died in Kashmir at the age of 120/125. *

Let me provide proofs from their literature on the first question I asked from Mr. Popat, which he has deliberately didn’t answer.

Question was; When did the conversation quoted from the verse 3:55 took place between Allah SWT and Isa AS?

Mirza has written about it in many places, but here I will quote from his book “Jesus in India Page 58” which is more relevant for this debate. He writes;

[QUOTE]

“What happened was that God caused things to happen which saved Jesus from death on the cross. Justice demands that we acknowledge the truth and of what the Holy Quran have said, as opposed to the Jewish and Christian’s beliefs.”

[/QUOTE]

Same had been said in even greater details by Zafrullah Khan, in his book Deliverance from the Cross on P32 he writes;

[QUOTE]
“This is in exact accord with the affirmation of the Quran on the subject. We have already drawn attention to God’s assurance to Jesus, according to the Quran, that he would die of natural death and would be spiritually exalted towards God, that is to say, he would not suffer death upon the cross.”
[/QUOTE]

*It is obvious, either Mr. Popat does not know his own Jamat’s material or he deliberately didn’t want to answer the questions. In either case, he is proving himself to be not up to the job to show us Muslims the truth of Mirza’s claims as he so proudly stated at the start of this thread. *

My Second Question which he once again avoided and didn’t answer was;

Did Allah SWT ever have this kind of conversation with Prophet Muhammad SAW in the Holy Quran? Let me clarify I am looking for the exact phrase used “cause you to die”.

He off course is reluctant to answer this question knowing fully well the implications of him answering it. I asked this question based on his reply in earlier post, he wrote;

[QUOTE]

you will realize that Allah was talking to Jesus (AS) when Jews were giving Him some very hard time.

[/QUOTE]

I further asked him this question, which he ignored; because game is over if he answers these questions. Please tell us, Jews were giving Jesus hard time in Kashmir too?

*He is only trying to avoid the unavoidable, which is inevitable. *

We Muslims know from our Holy Quran, Sunnah of the Prophet SAW and our History that Prophet Muhammad SAW was under sever threats from the Kuffar in Mecca, who were after his SAW’s life. Due to this he was Ordered by Allah SWT to migrate.

In Medina the conditions were little better then Mecca, but he SAW still faced opposition from the local Jews and Christians who were constantly planning with the Kuffar of Mecca to harm Prophet SAW, not to mention the “Munafqoon” who were hatching plans with the opponents to harm our beloved Prophet SAW.

Prophet SAW took part in many Ghazvas. In these Ghazvas there was a real possibility that harm can be done to him SAW by the Kuffars, even he SAW could have died.

Allah SWT in the Holy Quran even warned the Muslims in 3:144

"then, he dies or is slain, will you turn about on your heels?" First part of this verse is also used by Mirza as a proof of the death of Isa As based on their own meanings. I will deal with it too in the future Inshallah.

Allah SWT gave Prophet Muhammad SAW glad tidings of the Victory to come in 48:18 “and rewarded them with [the glad tiding of] a victory soon to come “
Allah SWT further promised Prophet Muhammad SAW and the believers in
48:27 “Indeed, God has shown the truth in His Apostle’s true vision: most certainly shall you enter the Inviolable House of Worship, if God so wills, in full security, with your heads shaved or your hair cut short, without any fear:”

But Allah SWT didn’t gave Prophet Muhammad SAW assurance that He SWT “will cause him SAW to die" to which Mirza inserted natural death, but wouldn’t let the enemies of Prophet Muhammad SAW kill him SAW. I will discuss that dishonest translation too at the conclusions. At the moment let’s take care of Mr. Popat.

Mr. Popat;

Apart from Prophet Muhammad SAW, many Prophets were given hard times by their people, that included real danger to their lives, one such example is Musa AS, he AS never got that assurance either from Allah SWT in the holy Quran.

More relevant is the story of Prophet Younus AS or Jonah AS, he was in the belly of the whale for 3 days. Mirza has drawn comparison of him AS and ISA AS in his books, when he wanted to use this example to slate the Christians and Prophet ISA As and to prove that Isa AS survived crucifixion he AS was alive in the tomb like Jonah AS was alive in the belly of the Whale. Even though Mirza’s arguments were not based on the evidence in the Holy Quran but in the Bible, which he has slated time and time again, but it didn’t stop him to use the evidence from the same sources against which he has written so vehemently

My Questions to you Mr. Popat, Mirza compared Jonah AS to Prophet ISA AS, but why then Jonah AS did not get the assurance from Allah SWT that He SWT will “Cause him to die (natural death)” and the whale wouldn’t harm him As? Why we can not have complete and identical comparison, with like for like?

Your task is to show us from the Holy Quran that Allah SWT gave this assurance exactly to any Prophet who was under persecution and faced real threat of death from their opponents; or in case of Jonah As from the fact that he was in the belly of the Whale.

All rights reserved © 2009

200

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

crankthatskunk cut that crap alright. You are only ruining my thread for no reason. Have you read my reply to you? This was what my reply to you was..

[QUOTE]
Its a whole new topic altogether. Again, i ask you to not bring Ahmadiyya jamaat in here. Jesus (AS) where ever he went was being accused of illegitimate birth. Thus, Allah has freed him from this in Quran. Kashmir or else where is not what the verse you provided ask me to reply. When did that conversation took place? answer I have given is that when he (AS) was alive. Doesnt matter where He went once he survived crucifixion. Allah has given Him the assurance that you (Jesus AS) will be given death the natural way and will not be killed by the hands of the jews ( jews plan of killing him will always fail ).
[/QUOTE]
and then you quoted Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) as this :

[QUOTE]
“What happened was that God caused things to happen which saved Jesus from death on the cross. Justice demands that we acknowledge the truth and of what the Holy Quran have said, as opposed to the Jewish and Christian’s beliefs.”
[/QUOTE]
where is the discrepancy ? No Muslim believe His (AS)'s death on cross. Thats what He said. 'as opposed to the jewish and christian's belief'. Jewish belief : they killed him . Christians belief: he (AS) ascended to heavens.

Then again, I said I am not talking about claims of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS). If you have knowledge of Quran, prove His (AS)' ascension towards heaven. You will never succeed.

I also asked if the time that the conversation took place is relevant? if it is , please do let me know. You did not write anything on that regards. You said all Muslims know when that conversation took place..when asked from you the answer , there was no answer.

Quote me from any pages prior to page 10/9 when i have been having discussion with psyah and let me know if you find them wrong. You never will be able to discuss with me this issue. Period. You do not have Quranic knowledge for which i opened this thread.

Long paragraphs will not be of any help to you.

PS: your other question of Muhammad PBUH can wait. But just to give you a bit of an answer... no. Prophet Muhammad PBUH never had that kind of conversation with Allah ( not that i know of ), because His (SAW)'s death was not questionable, neither was the death of any other prophets prior to Muhammad PBUH, BUT Jesus (AS)'s death. It needed clarification in Quran, and it has clarification in Quran. Alas, if you only think about it.

Timepass - March 2014