Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

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Peace Mr. Popat

I take exception to your statement above. I've only listed what you believe and what we believe regarding the nature of Isa (AS). There is no point in trying to drill home the reasons why you think we hold Isa (AS) more superior than Muhammad (SAW), we can give you many references where we hold the opposite, but this is different topic for now. Rather you should be saying that our formats of interpretation make it seem to you that we hold Isa (AS) as a greater prophet than Muhammad (SAW). Anyway again I believe that is a different topic but this one is now ended we know where we stand.
...

21:08 (09 for some).. "And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever"

25:21 ( 20 for some )..And We never sent any Messengers before thee but surely they ate food and walked in the streets. And We make some of you a trial for others. Will you *then *be steadfast? And thy Lord is All- Seeing.

The first of these two verses is about the taunts of the people who wished to see Muhammad (SAW) perform miracles to prove himself. The response being from Allah (SWT) that it was not those prophets who performed miracles because they were only flesh and blood i.e. ate food and passed through death. That there is no difference in Muhammad (SAW) as a messenger than those previous messengers. They were all human. Allah (SWT) says those who He sent were:

a) Men
b) Inspired by Him

The context of this section shows how Allah (SWT) made the prophets prosper and how the people who were transgressors were destroyed.

The second of these two verses is the 25:20 actually links back to an earlier ayat in the same Surah ... number 7.

It was to clarify a taunt that Muhammad (SAW) was a mere mortal, they wanted to see mystifying things.

smiles feelings
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Indeed it does seem to me that you hold Isa AS superior than Holy prophet PBUH. Anyway, different topic. End of this right here.

Now, read what you wrote and read this verse... 5:75(76 for some) The Messiah, son of Mary, was **only a Messenger*; surely, Messengers like unto him **had indeed passed away* before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. T*hey both used to eat food*. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

Messiah was only a messenger. He AS and his mother USED to eat food. Why does Jesus AS become an exception when it is clear that prophets were subjected to hunger, and in the verse i quoted, it says they USED to eat food. They no longer do.

[QUOTE]
The context of this section shows how Allah (SWT) made the prophets prosper and how the people who were transgressors were destroyed.

The second of these two verses is the 25:20 actually links back to an earlier ayat in the same Surah ... number 7.

It was to clarify a taunt that Muhammad (SAW) was a mere mortal, they wanted to see mystifying things.
[/QUOTE]
This is the verse you're referring to :

[25:8]And they say, ‘What is the matter with this Messenger that he eats food, and walks in the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him that he might be a warner with him?

what does it really tell you? they (disbelievers) used to say how can someone be sent by Allah who needs food to survive and walks in the streets.. This only approves more that Messengers were human beings just like us.
Lets look at the verse again. Verse 25:20 (21 for some).

[QUOTE]
25:21 ( 20 for some )..And We never sent any Messengers before thee but surely they ate food and walked in the streets. And We make some of you a trial for others. Will you *then *be steadfast? And thy Lord is All- Seeing.
[/QUOTE]
Please note the highlighted part. There should be no doubt now. Jesus AS was sent before Muhammad PBUH and as the verse says, they ate food.. and 5:75 says that they ( Jesus AS, and Mary ) USED to eat food. The verse 5:75 makes it very clear by actually referring Jesus AS in there.

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Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

^ Peace Mr. Popat

I agree all prophets are human and therefore eat food

I agree that Jesus (AS) is being shown to be human in association with his mother

What is it that you are trying to get at? The reference for the third verse that you have given is supposed to be 5:78, I have a slightly different translation, but anyway ...

I sense an Arabic lesson coming up

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Ok so at this moment, i think i can summarize this..

I say : Prophets were humans , Jesus AS was no better than any other prophets sent by Allah. Like other human beings, he was subjected to the natural laws of hunger, thirst , and was subject also to the natural ensuing phenomena.

You say : Prophets were humans, Jesus AS was also a human being, because His birth was miraculous, therefore it is fair to say that He AS must be still alive.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why He AS no longer eats food? If He AS was a messenger of Allah and Allah says that He sent all messengers which were humans ( ate food, walk in streets ).. why does the verse say Jesus AS USED to eat food. Mary AS is also included in it. Either both are dead or both are alive?.. if alive, why do they no longer eat food?

PS: yes please.. give an arabic lesson. Please keep in mind, that whichever word u give lesson on, does NOT contradict other verses in Quran. It is not appropriate and not wise to translate one verse according to your likings, and when the same word is used elsewhere in Quran , it is to be taken in a different meaning..

As Quran says :
[QUOTE]
17:89 And undoubtedly, We have in this Quran described every kind of saying in various ways, then most of the men accepted nothing but being ungrateful.
[/QUOTE]

or , another translation to it is :

[QUOTE]
“And certainly We have REPEATED for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.”
[/QUOTE]

Please keep this verse in mind while giving the lesson. Make sure to check other verses of Quran and see if ur explanation doesnt suit other verses.

PS: Please provide me with your slightly different translation to the verses we're currently talking about.

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I agree with the first statement, the second is unqualified with the information given. I do not believe that Isa (AS) is not favoured for certain things. Of course he is the Messiah and he has been given some things. However, essentially I draw no distinction between the prophets because they all speak truth and are all from Allah (SWT).

I don't know what you mean by the highlighted statement above, but if by it you mean that there is nothing in the power of Isa (AS) that enables him to alter the natural law of Allah (SWT) then I agree.

On the contrary I gave a rational explanation as to why it can be plausible for Isa (AS) to be alive, th reason why I am convinced of it is not because of the rationalism, but rather because of hadith and close inspection of Qur'anic ayaat. But we are currently covering your angle here.

I didn't say that Isa(AS) no longer eats food, besides even if he (AS) didn't eat food, there could be a number of reasons why.

1) He not being on the Earth is not bound by the rules of the Earth, note, the verse about eating is linked with walking the streets which are on Earth.
2) He could be asleep (this is another line of discussion), food is not eaten in sleep state.

Besides, you need to explain why you think he (AS) no longer eats food.

The translation is not important because as I said it differs slightly. My Arabic lesson will have to be delayed until my next post inshaAllah. And by the way I take exception to the conditions you have put on the words of the Qur'an. It is absolutely permissible to use the same word in a different way because the context has to be taken into account. Also, many a times hadith explain the meaning. This will also be taken up later inshaAllah.

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Ok. So natural law of Allah does not permit any mortal to be taken up alive. Please explain your stance and let me know where Allah is? If He is everywhere.. why then take him to 4th heaven?

Which close inspection of Quranic ayaat are you referring to brother? Ahadith talking about Isa AS's return is actually referring to Messiah of Muhammadi SAW shariyah. I've been asking for sometime now, to provide me with the Quranic ayaah to which you have inspected closely and came to the conclusion of Him being still alive.

Perhaps you never said He no longer eats food, but the verse I quoted does say He no longer eats food ( Used to )..

1) He not being on the Earth does not mean He AS no longer is a human being. You will still need oxygen to breathe if you were to go in space. Does not mean if you are out of the Earth , you no longer needs to eat, take rest, do all the normal stuff a regular person does..
2) Point to be noted sir. Without any evidence, you bring a whole new concept of Him being asleep. I cannot remember the exact verse number from Quran , perhaps if you know, you could help posting it here..( please do, this took me half an hour to search , but still couldnt find ).. it reads something like this : Allah takes people soul only on two occasions .. one when they're dead and one when they're put to sleep, and He sends their soul back to their body until an appointed time...(perhaps the translation that i did may not be right, and you're welcome to correct me and also provide me with the reference of this ayaah , will appreciate it... ).. Also, being asleep is again an assumption made by you. Being in asleep state will not required food, however for how long?.. You are forgetting , He AS was a human being..and a messenger, nothing else. Are you saying that during sleep , someone cannot die?.. No assumptions please.. and no exceptions either in case of isa AS. During sleep, one's life span is getting increased , is it not?.. On one hand you say He AS will come back as he was taken up. On other hand you say He AS is sleeping?.. does sleeping not make one age at all?

My explanation to what it means when it says he no longer eats food. >> he AS is dead. Only dead people dont eat. Simple and straightforward and no brainer.

ok context needs to be taken in to account. It is not wise to translate one word differently for one verse but differently for another. If you take exception to this, then there are many verses using the word mutavafika, Qad khalat, rafa'a etc. You only translate them to your own likings without taking in to account the same word used in other places in Quran... if context needs to be taken in to account then that means, there are more than 2 meanings to the same words. If thats true then everyone will have their own version of Quran. Everyone is free to use any translation of the word they like..

Looking forward to your arabic lesson. Dont let it contradict Quran.

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[QUOTE]
God takes back people's selves [yatawaffaa] when their death mawtihaa] arrives and those who have not yet died, while they are asleep [lam tamut]. He keeps hold of those whose death mawt] has been decreed and sends the others back for a specified term. (Surat Az-Zumar, 39:42)
[/QUOTE]

Peace Psyah,

Here is the verse I was talking about above. He takes soul on two occasions
1)death
2)sleep

2>> taking of soul in asleep state is temporary you will say. However, in both cases, the body is on Earth, while the soul departs (in case of death, permanent..and in case of sleeping, temporarily.).. Wise man wouldnt call it sleeping for 2000 years but call it death. Note that there is no other way of Allah taking souls than those two ways.. It is hence not to be believed that He AS might be sleeping, but much more reasonable to say He AS is dead.

[QUOTE]
5:75(76 for some) The Messiah, son of Mary, was **only a Messenger*; surely, Messengers like unto him **had indeed passed away* before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. T*hey both used to eat food*. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.
[/QUOTE]

End of discussion on this verse. You failed to give me a reasonable answer. Shall I move on now? want this topic to turn slightly different way, hence i'd ask u to answer me if He is still aging at this point in time?.. Will He AS be born again or not?.. You cannot say sleeping made him stop his age. So, where ever he may be..is he aging? Thank you.

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Peace Mr. Popat

Rather natural law of Allah has rules that cannot be compromised unless Allah (SWT) grants special permission for them to be so, such is the discussion of miracle and karama. This is why I have said in other discussions that to believe in miracle is an article of our faith.

Allah (SWT) is not contained in space, nor is it right to say He is everywhere.
However, we refer to the upward direction as a context for a location, because that is how Allah (SWT) has refered to Himself being over the 'Arsh. This is an 'aqeedah element also. The 4th heaven is upward from the world, but I do not know where you have got the reference for 4th heaven.

Please let me discuss your verses first then we can move on, or else you will try to hang me contradicting the Qur’an with the verses you have provided. So I first want to show you that your interpretation of your own provided evidence is either wrong or classically interpreted with any option which is valid within the constrains of the language and in context to hadith.

This is wrong the verse never says “He no longer eats food” this is your interpretation and it is wrong. This is in fact where the Arabic lesson comes in.

There is no point rationalising with psuedo-science the mechanics of survival in space, I could just as easily introduce the concept of time experience and how it may appear to Isa (AS) that only a day has passed when centuries have passed on Earth, but instead of the trouble of doing that let’s just say that … Allah (SWT) has to power to make this possible. The principle of miracle. Read above.

Noted: We’ll leave that for another time then. I did say that it was another discussion.

Okay so here is the crux of your argument …

This is simply not true. Please read Surah 2 Verse 259 … as part of your belief it is important that you temper it against other parts to maintain consistency.

The prophet Uzair (AS) slept for hundred years - that breaks the natural law, the food was still piping hot for hundred years, that breaks the natural law, the donkey’s bones were a sign that he was asleep for a hundred years, then before his (AS) eye’s the meat and skin was clothed on the carcass and before him stood his donkey - that breaks the natural law.

259. Or (take) the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said: “Oh! how shall Allah bring it (ever) to life, after (this) its death?” but Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: “How long didst thou tarry (thus)?” He said: (Perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said: “Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age; and look at thy donkey: And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people, Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh.” When this was shown clearly to him, he said: “I know that Allah hath power over all things.”

Besides it never says “he no longer eats food” that is your grammatical mistake that I shall explain inshaAllah.

Yes that is true people do in fact use different meanings of the Qur’an to support their view. To prove that the Qur’an can create this spectrum of opinions is based on two parts of the Qur’an:

a) One part is when it informs us that by the Signs of Allah (SWT) He can give guidance and lead people astray

b) The parts where it states there are direct and metaphoric verses.

The only way we can avoid coming to the wrong meaning is to follow the guide of the hadith, the consensus of scholars who have had their lineage based on an unbroken chain to the prophet Muhammad (SAW).

According to ASWJ the third manner in which a soul can be taken is by body and soul. It has happened in the case of mi’raaj, it has happened with prophet Idris (AS) also … The Story of Prophet Idris for an informal reference to the story.

No … this is where the Arabic lesson comes in inshaAllah.

Okay in Arabic there are three forms of pronouns, the singular, the dual and the plural.

The verse which quotes Isa (AS) and Maryam (AS) USED TO eat food says so in the dual form.

You concluded earlier that if they BOTH USED TO eat then He is no longer eating. This is where you have failed grammatically speaking, well at least you are missing the full meaning.

Yes, it can indeed mean that he is no longer eating, but it could also mean that Maryam (AS) is no longer eating and he (AS) is still eating. Here is why:

Let’s say you have A and B who eat, when you say THEY BOTH USED TO EAT the dual form in Arabic is employed and to break the dual form either A stops eating, or B stops eating or they both stop eating. Even if one of them stops eating then the dual is broken, because it follows they cannot BOTH be eating if one of them has stopped.

Therefore, although your meaning is linguistically valid it is not true as a proof that Isa (AS) is dead because grammatically there is still an option that Maryam (AS) has died and therefore stopped eating, but Isa (AS) is alive and therefore could still be eating. If I remember correctly I heard on one occassion that it is a belief that Isa (AS) is kept nourished until a point of his return.

If you do not understand what I mean about this Arabic construction think of dual nouns in English.

If I say I used to dangle my FEET in the pool until I had one foot amputated thereafter I could only dangle a FOOT in pool. One would say that I USED TO dangle my FEET, but I can no longer do this it could mean I have lost both my feet but it could also mean that I have lost only one foot and therefore I cannot use the statement I used to dangle my feet as proof that both my feet are affected.

Timepass - July 2013
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Peace psyah,

I totally believe in miracles. They have happened to prophets. Some of the miracles have been mentioned in Quran which one cannot deny. However, Jesus AS’s ascension to heaven is no where mentioned in Quran.

we as humans are limited.. Allah is unlimited, He is omnipresent. Allah says where ever you direct yourself, you’ll find him. Allah says He is closer to you than your jugular vein.. (metaphorically, this is to mean that he is aware of every single thing we do).. First know the simt of Allah, and for that you’re gonna have to read Quran.

Do you want me to provide you with the translation from other well known Quranic translators ?

Please read the ayaah again. It says both of them used to eat food. Here is the full ayaah again , and im highlighting the things which im trying to emphasis on more..

5:75(76 for some) The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengerslikeunto himhad indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

In this verse, Allah is talking about both, Mary AS and Jesus AS. When it says His mother WAS a truthful woman, it makes it clear that shes dead, however, read what’s after it.. “they both used to” now, Allah joined Jesus AS with His mother whose dead. How can you then say that it is possible for one of them to still be eating while other must be dead? Verse couldnt have explained in any other clear manner of Him AS being dead. He along with his mother used to eat. When someone still does something, no language would say they used to.. it will be the opposite.. it is that ’ they both eat food’.. but in that verse, we see that they USED to eat food.

You do realize that whatever you are talking thus far is all based on your own assumptions right?.. With no evidence from Quran, after bring the concept of him being asleep, which i explained is false, you now are going to introduce the concept of time experience? You are welcome to do so, if its in Quran and if thats the only thing left for you to prove your beliefs from Quran. I am not denying the pink highlighted part. However, at the last this is what you had to say? I’m disappointed. I thought you could have brought something better. You believe His ascension towards Heavens… why are you having hard time proving from Quran if this has actually happened? But to say , Allah has the power to make this possible only proves that whatever has been told to you, you have bought into it , without actually giving time to search for yourself. Discard this belief brother. You will never be able to explain your this belief based on Quran.

It was you who brought this up. I only explained why thinking that he must be asleep is not only false from Quran but also makes one ask so many questions. It only contradicts with your very own beliefs as well. Being asleep is what you brought and hence it is part of the discussion.. please answer the question i asked about him being asleep. Do not run away from what you said. Him being asleep was one thing your said to support ur argument.. you now need to explain it properly. It indeed is related to the topic. Also, to support your belief, you said this as well..

I asked you questions about it. You need to answer. I have all the time in the world. Him being not on earth will not make him anyone else other than Human being. How can you say he is not bound to the earth rules of hunger,walking etc ? You never explained.

It is in Quran and I believe in Quran with all my heart. When this happened, Allah explained. However , i wonder why not in case of Jesus AS?.. the event was so huge that it must be in Quran as well. There is no mention of Him AS taken alive to heavens. Story of Jesus AS in heaven alive is a cooked up story. I’m waiting for you to deal with all the ayaah’s i presented earlier and will be presenting in the future , and wait for the time when you will be presenting ayaahs from Quran supporting your belief of Him being alive. I so wait for that day.

Ok doke. You do admit now that there are metaphoric verses in Quran as well. Now, what gives you the right to translate the verse 4:157-158 as him being ascended bodily? you said you need to take context into account.. how did u take context into account on this verse and thought of bodily ascension ?

Miraj was spiritual rather physical, and i can prove you that as well, however this thread is not about miraj but Jesus AS ascension to heaven. Prophet Idris AS was taken to heaven bodily too? Can you provide me with the verse.. Just want to see what word is being used in that verse. Thank you.

Make no sense whatsoever. When it is said they both USED to eat .. i see no reason to believe that one of them is dead and one of them is still eating. Provided in the same verse, it says Mary was a truthful woman. I only understood this verse the way its written. There is really no reason why one need to actually start giving the arabic lesson which makes no sense whatsoever. Totally senseless.

You failed yet again to prove it wrong. Shall i move on to something else now? I asked ..

Thanks.

believe it or not
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Peace Mr. Popat

I am going to re-combine some of the stray ends in this discussion because it might reach critical mass and we will end up trying to tackle too many topics at the same time.

The Ascension of Isa (AS) is mentioned in the Qur'an in two places, but you have failed to adopt the meaning pertaining to that. Rather instead you are imposing on us a meaning that fits your rules, and because that is another topic for the time being I suggest we take this up later.

As for believing in miracles that is good that you do believe in them, but then if that is truly the case then you should not have asked the questions about the natural laws of Allah (SWT) and use it as argument to conflict with the possibility of Ascension. At least you should have agreed that Ascension is possible according to the dictate of miracle which bypasses he natural laws and we can move on.

It is a position of 'aqeedah to know 'where' Allah (SWT) is. As far as we are concerned the Qur'an teaches us that He is beyond His creation and signaled as in the Up direction, but for the spiritual access to Allah (SWT) we only need to consult our hearts, in which case the meanings of no direction fall out. The fact of the matter is that when Allah (SWT) draws unto Himself it's meaning is **'to be taken to heaven' **as what is traditionally understood in all Abrahamic religions.

Again this is away from the verse in question and more can be talked about this later inshaAllah.

No need to provide translations ... It's the commentaries that are more important here. You see it's not in translation that I have issues really it is how you are interpreting the meaning.

The verse has made clear that Maryam (AS) has died, but it leaves the option for Isa (AS) to be alive and your rhetoric about "they both used to" is false as I described earlier the Arabic grammar is not being taken in to account by you. Of course one of the interpretations is that he too is dead, but another is that is he alive both interpretations are valid from this verse.

Therefore this verse cannot be used as proof that Isa (AS) is dead as it leave room for interpretation. On the other hand hadith can be used to support whether he (AS) has died or not to give a fuller meaning.

No I am not talking on my own assumptions you know very well that my argument is the same argument of ASWJ, which is based on the arguments of the scholars of the past. Because I have not let you sidetrack me to give you references for everything upon your request you are saying this. InshaAllah those references will come, but let's deal with this topic first.

According to the rules of Arabic I am arguing my case for this verse ... You will need to accept that this verse is not PROOF of Isa (AS)'s death and to use the translation of "they both used to eat" as a means to support your claim is not honest.

To answer your question about why I cannot prove something to be so in Qur'an, it is again another topic of discussion. However, to satisfy your for the time being it is because the Qur'an is not an explanation, it is in fact a clarification. Those beliefs that were wrong in the People of the Book it has explained in detail, but those beliefs that they held were correct it has left without much explanation except that it uses language that points to the truth of those previous beliefs.

So you will see it talk clearly that Isa (AS) was not crucified, yet only points to the idea that he (AS) has gone through Ascension. Because it clearly states that Isa (AS) was not crucified I do not associate anything of the cross with Isa (AS) however, your position is different. On the other hand it talks about Ascension and you take the figurative meaning or else it will show that Isa (AS) could still be alive in heaven. I take the hadith that support the Ascension as the mechanism to believe that he did go through this process, but if you look at previous scripture they are full of references to Ascension that as Al-Furqan i.e. The Criterion, the means for clarification has not informed the People of the Book of their mistake of believing in it would cause me to ask you that if their belief was so wrong then why did the Qur'an not make it clear that Ascension is a false belief? Answer .... because it is not a false belief like crucifixion is.

I am yet to even address the topic of sleep and it is not a position that I hold, but I think it is worth mentioning later, but not yet. So I am not running away I made it very clear throughout my posts that I am sticking to the topics and shall provide reasons and evidence for what I have said, inshaAllah.

It is not a belief of mine that needs explanation other than I believe if it is possible for a prophet to sleep 100 years and wake without any change except that he thought he was asleep for a few hours, then it is not impossible for me to believe that Isa (AS) can remain alive without eating for many centuries outside the world. Afterall that sleeping prophet was also not eating for hundred years.

Before I was merely giving scientific explanations of possibility which I prefer not to do.

[/quote]

The Ascension and the way meanings are taken is dealt with above.

The account of prophet Idris (AS) is in hadith as far as I know, the mi'raaj is according to the ASWJ a whole experience and there are other views but not what I personally hold as true.

Mr.Popat ... if one does not understand instead of saying senseless ask for more information, it is you who is not a good student! No jokes aside ... really I am serious when I say that in Arabic the dual form is broken even if one of the two stops doing that particular verb.

In fact there are three possibilities of what it means "they both used to eat"

Consider A and B.

First Option: A stops eating and B continues
Second Option: B stops and A continues
Third Option: A and B stop eating

With your sharp observation you have shown that Maryam (AS) has died, therefore if A is Maryam (AS) we can rule out the Second Option as a valid meaning. But the other two are still open.

i.e. That Maryam (AS) stops eating and Isa (AS) continues or that Isa (AS) and Maryam (AS) stop eating. In both cases in the general sense to stop eating can mean one has died, but it can also mean in the specific case that one does not need to eat for whatever reason. To explain how it is possible understand the idea of miracle and you will see that it is possible. Lastly, do not confuse the verses that are used to demonstrate the humanity of prophets as excuses for them not to be able to go through exceptions in the form of miracle.

This is my last point on this matter you can make your last point and I shall summarise inshaAllah then we can move on.

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Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

I have nothing to say now about the verse we're currently discussing on. I said what i had to. The verse we are talking about right now sure is evidence enough about his death. Go right ahead and summarize all you like.

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Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

you know what i just realized.. on one hand you're saying that He AS is not on earth and therefore isnt bound to obey earth laws.. (eating, walking etc), and then u said he might be asleep , in which case food is not required..(note : these two arguments you brought forth to support your argument that He AS isnt required food ).. now...The moment i presented you with the verse saying that "they used to eat" , all of a sudden, you're now trying to give arabic lesson as to how Mary AS could be dead, but Jesus AS could still be eating?..

am i confused or you are? ..

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Peace Mr.Popat

If you look back through the posts I was talking about the Arabic lesson for some time before I actually made reference to the dual form. It was because I felt I had to ensure that I would not be misread.

Now there are two things you are saying here:

That I claim Isa (AS) is not on Earth and therefore not bound to Earth rules.
Actually this is not my claim, it is indeed my claim that Isa (AS) is no longer Earth bound, but it is not my claim that he is or is not bound to Earth rules, or no longer eating, it is also not my claim that he is eating. It is infact my claim that Allah (SWT) does as He Wills.

If Allah (SWT) wants to keep Isa (AS) alive with or without food in that heavenly dwelling I am claiming that He is perfectly capable of doing so.

I was merely presenting counter arguments to your assertion that Isa (AS):

a) Is no longer eating
b) That if he is no longer eating then he cannot be alive

I've shown that your proof of him no longer eating is subject to 2 possibilities, which means that it is not really proof.

And secondly I've shown that it is possible to live without food without dying for many years IF you employ the idea of miracle in the equation and therefore the verses that apply to Isa (AS) walking the streets and eating food have a context that is to appeal to the people that he was not God and the references of Muhammad (SAW) appealing to the people that he is no different to previous prophets so why ask for tricks and entertainment. Those verses were being taken out of context by you to demonstrate that eating is MANDATORY to remain alive, I say even if it were the case it is not clear in scripture that Isa (AS) is NOT eating.

I'm not the one who is confused bro ... I shall summarise in my next post inshaAllah.

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Summary so far ...

Ahmadi: Immortality is defined by an unusually high number of years beyond normal human existence, irrespective of the promise of death.

ASWJ: Immortality is defined by someone who is not destined to die.

Ahmadi: It is deemed of greater importance to be living for many thousands of years than a mere normal human life.

ASWJ: Age length does not determine importance, rather importance is defined in Qur'an and hadith and that is how it is accepted.

Ahmadi: Isa (AS) must have died as he was human and humans have to eat, according to the Qur'an, if they stop they die as is the case with any human. It states in the Qur'an that he (AS) and Maryam (AS) both used to eat, which means he (AS) together with her (AS) no longer eat. Because it is not a normal thing that Isa (AS) should remain alive and it is not said in any clear terms that he is alive, therefore we must take it that he is dead.

** ASWJ: Isa (AS) has not died as expressed in hadith, there is no clear statement in the Qur'an saying that he (AS) has died. Humans do need to eat, but the references given for food and prophets are of two types which have been cited:**

a) To show that Muhammad (SAW) is the same as any prophet who came before him.

b) To show Isa (AS) is not God

The normal position of ASWJ is that Isa (AS) will return to die. He can be kept alive with or without food in or outside Earth. The evidence in the Qur'an showing that someone has stopped eating does not necessarily mean the death of that person, also any evidence cited for Isa (AS) to have stopped eating is itself subject to another possible option.

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Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

Why are we talking about Ahmadis here? Believing Jesus AS dead would not make me Ahmadi. One can research for themselves and find out about Jesus AS's death without being an ahmadi.

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Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

You cannot take hadith to support your belief if when Quran is saying Jesus AS of nazareth is dead. The hadith referring to Isa AS is obviously then not the Isa AS which were sent to bani isreal, but Messiah for Muslim, i.e: reformer within the shariyah of Muhammad PBUH.

Why does one take exception in Jesus AS's case and believe he AS is still alive since there is no clear cut verse from Quran mentioning His death? is it fair to believe that whichever prophet's death is not mentioned in Quran, they can still be alive?

Where else has Allah used the dual form in Quran? where it creates doubt about A and is clear about B , when both of them have been used as "they both"

PS: end of discussion on the verse currently on hand. I can certainly take that verse as a proof of His death. Lets just move forward , shall we?

You still havent answered the questions i asked ..here it is agian for you :

[QUOTE]
answer me if He is still aging at this point in time?.. Will He AS be born again or not?.. You cannot say sleeping made him stop his age. So, where ever he may be..is he aging? Thank you.
[/QUOTE]

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Good point ... I should be writing Mr. Popat

This distinction of different Isa (AS) has been brought by the Ahmadiyya group. I cannot see that hadith refers to a different Isa (AS) from The Isa (AS).

You are right there is an obligation on us from ASWJ to show why we say he (AS) is alive when we do not say the same for other prophets. I will demonstrate that in due course inshaAllah. The answer does not lie in the Qur'an, but in hadith. As far as we are concerned if it cannot be shown from the Qur'an that Isa (AS) 100% died, then we can rely on hadith that say he is alive.

It is Arabic grammar that we are talking about here. Using grammar try to refute what I have said about the dual form of pronouns. From the above statement it is clear to me that you still have not understood.

Here look in English ...

Both of them (together) jump
Both of them used to jump (together)

The dual form in Arabic mandates togetherness if two people used to jump together then it means that now either one still jumps or they both together have stopped jumping.

Isa (AS) will not be born again, he is not aging (according to me), evidence shall have to wait until we address your other verses. So please bring the next verse.

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Isa will not be born, but hes also not aging in the heavens either. Its getting interesting here..

Lets Congratulate The Above Person
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Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

thank you.

Do you know the hadith from Bukhari, if i remember correctly where it is said that Isa which was sent to bani israel had redish curly long hair , and had broad chest, and then theres this hadith in the very same bukhaari collection of hadith where it is said that Isa AS of latter days will be of medium hight, color of his skin will be fair, and nose will be pointy.. ( perhaps my interpretation might be wrong, please do enlighten me with the hadith if you know which ones im talking about here , thanks )

You will still not be able to find a hadith which says that He AS was raised to heaven bodily and will be coming back to earth bodily. The way to understand a subject is to first research it from Quran and then to back it up, we use hadith. Just like how in Quran it has made salaat mandatory but the method of Namaaz is not said in Quran, thus the need of ahadith arise. When Quran doesnt say that Jesus AS was ascended to heavens bodily , how can you then rely on hadith only?.. do you then not think Isa AS which are in ahadith is the title given to the reformer of Islam, who will be none other than from the shariyah of Muhammad PBUH?

ok no problem there, i see you're trying your best to defend what you believe in. Thus, this also has been admitted by you that it could mean they (both) have stopped eating. Though, you said there is another meaning to it.. so theres a possibility of around 50% that it could mean He AS could have stopped eating as well.. right? I could take that verse as a proof of his death, you on other hand, cannot take that verse to prove him alive. You could only bring possibilities..

Great. He AS will not be born again, also, he AS is not aging... Please bro, try not to do shirk here. The only one who was, is , and ever will be present and who make people age, but doesnt age himself, can be none other than Allah Almighty Himself. To say Jesus AS is not aging is thus placing him like Allah. Please do let me know why according to you He is not aging, when on one hand you said it is a possibility that he might have been asleep ( this was the argument you brought to refuse the eating of food ).. are you then saying that one only age when one is on Earth??

smiles feelings
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I have a few references but these should wait because they are not strictly about the topic of Ascension it is more a side topic about "why you believe there is more than one Isa (AS)"

I'll cover this section in my next post inshaAllah

Actually neither of us can take this verse as proof of death or life and neither of us can take this verse as proof that he has stopped or continued eating, because there is always going to be that other option. Even if you are right that he (AS) stopped eating, it still does not mean that Isa (AS) died, because of the fact that Allah (SWT) can keep him alive through miracle.

Is this what you resort to? SubhanAllah you are smart enough to realise that I will say that it is Allah (SWT) who is The Delayer Al-Mu'akhir ... it is one of His Attributes ... so why do you disbelieve that it is possible for Allah (SWT) to Delay how about Al-Hafeez The Preserver or Al-Muqeet The Maintainer?

SubhanAllah ya akh! If you wanna take a shot make it a good one.

There are reasons why I say that Isa (AS) is not aging and none of the explanations claim it is anything to do with him (AS) through his own power.