Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

Brother I meant not to offend but I **was **saying that your explanation is incorrect. It has to be incorrect because it doesn't make sense. I shall explain again.

Now first of all you have thrown in too many wild cards for me to deal with the green part and the pink part will have to be taken up later on, please remember to do so inshaAllah, I'll do the same.

Let's not run away from this verse just yet I'll paste it again ...

[21:35]We granted not everlasting life to any human being before thee. If then thou shouldst die, shall they live *here *for ever?

From here it is said that

1) No one before Muhammad (SAW) had been granted immortality.
2) That there is a likelihood that Muhammad (SAW) will die
3) And that if he (SAW) does die, how can anyone be granted immortality

Now a man on a death sentence has not been granted freedom to die naturally, but at this moment in time his death time is written for some point in the future say in 10 days time. Would it be correct or false to say that he has been saved from the death penalty just because he is alive today? No, his time is written and in the same way Isa (AS) being alive has not been granted immortality, i.e. his (AS) death time is also written. To confirm the very next verse says that all souls shall taste the flavour of death. Not that they have tasted it but that all souls WILL do so.

Now there are Sahabis who were born before Muhammad (SAW) but they did not die before him. Remember the verse refers to humans not just prophets. So take you interpretation and apply it on the Sahabah, does it fit? No it does not. As I was saying there were some who were born before him (SAW) and they lived on to die after him. Which means clearly it is wrong to assert that this verse requires to believe that all prophets have died before Muhammad (SAW), because it for one needs to be applied to all people and some people although came before Muhammad (SAW) actually died after him, which refutes your position on this verse. Agree to this and we will move on. If not then I am happy to stay here for a while.

Peace Mr. Popat

Trying to entertain the thought of "what was the need of Allah ..." is not a line of questioning for the Muslim who does not ask but obeys. We will not get to the answer of that question, because an even more fundamental question is "what was the need of Allah (SWT) Hiding Himself and then sending Messengers to teach us about Him?" These questions are transgressions from the topic.

Highlighted in blue above I have my answer to this verse ... the interpretation within the rules of Arabic grammar do not mandate it to be ALL prophets. Agree that the verse does not mandate ALL prophets then we can move on. If it does mandate ALL prophets then please show how I am mistaken.

The last part of this verse is what made you believe hes still alive up in the heavens right?.. There is NO MENTION of body nor heavens. Is it then not possible, for Allah to have raised His spiritual status higher?... or if i take your interpretation, is it not possible that He AS died a natural death and hence Allah raised him unto himself? Please give your opinion.

When you translate raising of someone, does it always mean bodily? because this is very contradictory to the rest of of Quran when quran uses the same word in different verses. Please clarify.

They KILLED him not.. fine. Nor did they crucify him. Fine. Now, where does it say raising Him up?...and where? no mention of heavens either. Nothing in this verse says raised him bodily. Allah is everywhere. To cover a distance from one place to another, means Allah was not where he was being crucified, but was sitting in the 4th heavens. Please explain..

Brother psyah, if i continue to quote Quranic references here in support of His AS death....if you're a soul who is really in search of the truth, you will have no choice but to accept the truth. But then again, I really dont have to.. dying is natural, raising someone up in heaven is not , and hence requires evidence from Quran and hadith. Your analogy of someone dying after Muhammad PBUH and yet not be called a better person/prophet than Him is absurd. There is no logic whatsoever in it. You provided the example of sahabis getting born before holy prophet pbuh, and dying after it, but failed to see that they were born within the time frame of His SAW's prophethood. Esa AS living in 2000 years and theres no specific time of his arrivale makes one wonder thats He AS is immortal.

Peace Mr. Popat

I don't have a bad memory, your very first post does indeed present your argument for why you think Isa (AS) has died, so there is no need to have me chase you in circles. Let's stick to the topic shall we?

Putting my search for truth to question is another side topic. Admit that the verse you have provided does not mandate that any one who came before Muhammad (SAW) has to die before him and that will be enough for me. Since you cannot admit this we cannot move on, because it will be you who are not giving way to the obvious error you have presented.

The meaning as it is is about the promise of immortality ... and one cannot be called immortal if they live a long time. They can only be called immortal if their life cannot be measured in time or that they will not die. But to put conditions on this to say that every human being that came before Muhammad (SAW) died before him is a falsehood. I am not going to let this go and I trust you see me as a reasonable person, but I have done enough chasing now I want to break real ground so please comply.

Psyah, again, it is not making sense to me at all. The ayaah i presented speaks that Allah never granted anyone everlasting life before Him AS. Everlasting is 2000+ years and on going... ( NO HUMAN BEING has ever been lived this longer.. why ESA became an exception? )...Esa AS came 600 years before Muhammad PBUH. It is evident that He AS has died, since he AS came BEFORE Him SAW.

PS: I have heard your explanation in which im not agreeing with. Does not mean you have keep on giving your explanation over and over. To me, this verse explains pretty nicely how no one before HIM AS has ever gotten everlasting life.. 2000+ years and on going.. well.. your explanation isnt convincing my friend.

Peace Mr. Popat

Let's put it this way you don't believe that Isa (AS) will live forever, neither do we. According to you the definition of everlasting life is to live more than 2000 years, according to us everlasting life means a person who never dies.

According to you we call Isa (AS) immortal and therefore contradict this verse
According to us we hold that Isa (AS) will die and therefore do not contradict this verse. Can we at least agree on this much?

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

So if Jesus is alive in the heavens, he must be eating something rite? And isn't heavens a place for your souls? Forgive me Allah, I'm naive. And fruits and wine for the souls in heaven is definately not something u feed to someone living bodily there.

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

And if Jesus did not die on the cross, where did he die? Where's his body? How did he survive the cross?

I agree with you on red highlighted text above...

The laws of nature you all talk about to argue with all Mighty Allah are made by Allah himself. He can change them, amend them, cancel them, he doesn't have to explain ....

;)

RC

Now that's not fair. You have cornered him now. I bet as usual, he is gonna go cry in feedback/complaints forum, file a complaint to MODs that you are not letting him win the conversation and then request to close the thread....

;)

RC

agree with the green part..

red part : not only immortal.. since Hes still living and no particular time of his arrival.. , you also indirectly place him higher than holy prophet PBUH.

pink part : sure, agreed. You explained the verses they way u understood it. There's no way you can convince me nor can I , regarding the verse you explained.

PS: please explain the following verses : 21:08 (09 for some).. "And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever*" *

25:21 ( 20 for some )..And We never sent any Messengers before thee but surely they ate food and walked in the streets. And We make some of you a trial for others. Will you *then *be steadfast? And thy Lord is All- Seeing.

PS: thank you for taking part in this thread, and taking your time explaining the verses the way u understood them, unlike some people like realitycheck, who have nothing useful to contribute but still come to this thread and say whatever they feel like.

PS2 : RealityCheck, you said the interpretation im presenting are gibberish. I asked you to provide me with the correct interpretation. Either accept the interpretation presented, or do not accuse me of posting gibberish interpretation and write only in this thread when you agree or disagree with something and tell us why. Thank you.

Is this really the last option you have when you are failing to explain your belief? That Allah can do anything? Nobody is denying this fact buddy. If you have something else to share about the topic, please do share.

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

RC ;)

Can you tell us why the Hazrat ISA (AS) being "alive" or "dead" is of so significance to these folks? What are they trying to establish here.

First think about the verse presented to you. Think about it in light of your own beliefs. Do not just be the first one to criticize. According to your belief, when someone is out of the Earth, He/she CANNOT die. ( this is what it seems like , when you talk about Jesus and call him human being just like us ).. Jesus AS needs to come back to Earth to die. Why?.. if people can die after going outside the earth too?

[QUOTE]
According to your understanding of the ayah humans didn't land on the moon because they can't live or die anywhere other than Earth.
[/QUOTE]
So, its fair to say that Jesus AS must have died too in heavens? why then is the need of Him coming back to get death?.. its been 2000+ years, c'mon!!

Either one can die being outside the Earth, ( which then means Jesus AS must have died, ) or one cannot.. ( in which case , one becomes completely immortal as long as he's not in Earth..).. what do you say?.. as long as someone is not in Earth, death cannot reach him/her? but this will contradict to wat you said, that people can die being outside the Earth..heres the verse again for you.

[QUOTE]
‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.’ 7:25
[/QUOTE]

waiting..

To break the cross. When u establish that Jesus died a normal death and not on the cross or crucified, there will be no christians anymore. And that is the job of the promised messiah.

Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.

Peace Mr. Popat

So in addition to claiming that we make Isa (AS) immortal you also say as a result of this 'i.e. giving him a very long life span' we are making Isa (AS) more important than Muhammad (SAW).

To answer this part is simple:
1) We have no reference making Isa (AS) more important than Muhammad (SAW) and neither do we hold such a view in our aqeedah.

2) If we are appointing more importance unwittingly according to your criteria of 'longevity of life' then we say there are some Sahabis who outlived Muhammad (SAW) they were born before him and died after him, would they too be more important according to your criteria of importance?

Just a small note, according to Ahamdi belief Isa (AS) survived the cross and lived in the East, did he not live to an age past 100 years? Since he lived longer than Muhammad (SAW) (i.e. greater than 63 years) was he not according to your criteria more important than Muhammad (SAW)?

Anyway ...

So according to us longevity of life is not a factor of importance and hence Isa (AS) may live as long as Allah (SWT) Wishes what will happen will happen and Isa (AS) will return to die, hence he is not immortal and no promise of immortality has been given to him.

According to you since we believe Isa (AS) has lived on until today he is being
made to have more importance than Muhammad (SAW) and hence we are wrong and in addition the verse is contradicted because it is evident to you that a person who is still alive today has been granted immortality.

So really to condense the subject down I would like to make a clean point of difference then move to your next presented ayahs. I will not conclude either way and leave it for the audience to decide.

Ahmadi: Immortality is defined by an unusually high number of years beyond normal human existence, irrespective of the promise of death.

ASWJ: Immortality is defined by someone who is not destined to die.

Ahmadi: It is deemed of greater importance to be living for many thousands of years than a mere normal human life.

ASWJ: Age length does not determine importance, rather importance is defined in Qur'an and hadith and that is how it is accepted.

...

21:08 (09 for some).. "And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever"

25:21 ( 20 for some )..And We never sent any Messengers before thee but surely they ate food and walked in the streets. And We make some of you a trial for others. Will you *then *be steadfast? And thy Lord is All- Seeing.

So you want me to deal with these now?

...

By the same logic, look at Prophet Muhammad (SAW)'s status... the most exalted of all prophets, the closest and dearest to Allah, the most perfect of all people on earth. When he went to Taif, he was pelted with stones, and was injured. When the Meccans plotted against him, he had to leave his home in the night and left Hazrat Ali in his place. In the battle of Badr, he was injured again and one of his teeth was broken. Doesn't it appear that if Jesus was taken up alive so no harm could come to him, then perhaps Jesus (AS) was dearer to Allah?

Just what it says in the text immediately preceding this: that it was made to appear to them as if they had killed Jesus. But they hadn't... he was alive despite his injuries on the cross.

Psyah jee....Peace too

I think you missed big chunk of my post there....

I have also compared verses with word Mutawaffika.

sheede...pistol dikha ke daraa raha hai....ese to koi bhi sahi jawab nahin de ga....pehle pistol hataao koi dam mien dam aaye to baat karrien na aapse....lolz