Prior belief based on centuries of undisputed experience that all humans die.
In the end, yes.
Ashab e Kahf slept slept for hundreds of years and stayed alive, it doesn't mean that they were better than the Prophet Isa(AS) and Muhammad(SAW). Similarly, Isa(AS) being taken up to heaven alive doesn't mean that he was better than those who weren't taken up alive.
Where is the proof that Isa (as) was taken "up" alive? What is this up, please clarify and what is the proof of this up from Quran & Hadith?
[Quote]
Now as to your question why Allah took him alive, look at Isa(AS)'s situation, he was in danger and Allah didn't want him to be murdered so He the Almighty saved him by raising him alive.
[/Quote]
Allah saved every other of the 124,000 prophets without taking them UP alive. Doesn’t make sense that he could not have done this one more time. Why could Allah not have raised him and dropped him on the next mountain, city, country or continent? Why was it so necessary to take Isa (as) completely outside this world? This also stops Isa(as) from preaching his ministry altogether i.e. being a prophet on the earth. Does not make any sense that Allah takes such a drastic step. Allah was under no obligation to do so, neither does Allah say anywhere that He did so. This is just your imagination without any proof.
In the end, yes.
Nope, that's NOT The experience. Just your imagination in the case of Isa (As). Again where is the proof of this exception?
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
Hey I guess I will copy my Mutawaffika post back here again. Shall I?
Where is the proof that Isa (as) was taken "up" alive? What is this up, please clarify and what is the proof of this up from Quran & Hadith?
You guys have started the thread so why don't you try to prove your points?
Allah saved every other of the 124,000 prophets without taking them UP alive. Doesn’t make sense that he could not have done this one more time. Why could Allah not have raised him and dropped him on the next mountain, city, country or continent? Why was it so necessary to take Isa (as) completely outside this world? This also stops Isa(as) from preaching his ministry altogether i.e. being a prophet on the earth. Does not make any sense that Allah takes such a drastic step. Allah was under no obligation to do so, neither does Allah say anywhere that He did so. This is just your imagination without any proof.
Stop underestimating the power of Allah because Allah is not your little brother, He's your Lord. Don't you understand when Allah Ta'ala says "He has power over everything" and "He is the most wise"???
Now are you going to also argue about other miracles? Why did Allah made Ashab e Kahf slept for so many years? Why didn't He simply killed them? Etc.
Nope, that's NOT The experience. Just your imagination in the case of Isa (As). Again where is the proof of this exception?
Now you have moved from the topic of "in the light of Quran and hadith" to "in the light of Aqal and Logic".
You guys have started the thread so why don't you try to prove your points?
Prove what? Death does not need to be proved. Its already proven and Quran & Hadith don't negate that.
[Quote]
Stop underestimating the power of Allah because Allah is not your little brother, He's your Lord. Don't you understand when Allah Ta'ala says "He has power over everything" and "He is the most wise"???
[/Quote]
Oh, the last resort argument...when no other option left its "Allah can do everything so he must have done this too" argument. I was wondering when this will pop up..
Buddy Allah does what he wises but did Allah actually do this event i.e. raising ISa (as) to "UP" alive? Allah doesn't say anywhere so what is your justification for making such a claim?
[Quote]
Now are you going to also argue about other miracles? Why did Allah made Ashab e Kahf slept for so many years? Why didn't He simply killed them? Etc.
[/Quote]
Did Allah say he raised Isa (as) alive? If not then what justification is there that this miracle took place? You can't just make up anything and attribute it to Allah when Allah has not affirmed it.
Now you have moved from the topic of "in the light of Quran and hadith" to "in the light of Aqal and Logic".
I replied to you. Don't blame it on me.
Sorry re-posting from old thread. Saves me lots of time.. 
The expression in arabic MUTE VA FEEKA comes from the root word VAFFA which carries the meaning of ‘Completing something or some task to such an extent that nothing else is left out’. In the same manner Vafaat means ‘Death’, as in Death the life term of a person is fully completed.
Following are some references from Standard Arabic dictionaries which tell us about the meaning of the word VAFFAT.
‘VAFFAT’ = Death, Decease (An advanced Learners Arabic-English Dictionary by H. Anthony Salmone pp1222)
‘VAFFAT’ = Death, Demise, Decease (Al Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary pp 1240)
‘TUVAFA’ = To take the life of anyone (A Dictionary & Glossary of the Koran by J. Penrice pp 161)
‘TUUFFA’ = To die, Expire, Pass away, Give up the ghost, Breath ones last, Part ones life (Al Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary pp 391)
In English to Arabic dictionaries ie reverse the meaning of ‘vaffat’ is again confirmed;
DEATH = ‘vaffat’ (Al Manar English-Arabic Dictionary pp 157)
DEATH = ‘vaffat’ (Al Asri English-Arabic Dictionary pp 193)
DEMISE = ‘vaffat’ (Al Mawrid English-Arabic Dictionary pp 259)
DEATH = ‘vaffat’ (Al Mawrid Eng Arabic Dictionary pp 251)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
However apart from General Arabic works of Reference, this word has also been used in the sense which conveys the meaning of death or demise or completion of one’s life term in the Qur’an it self. Where ever the word TUVAFA or MUTE VA FEEKA is used in Al-Quran where Allah or His Angle is one who is doing TAVAFA and human beings are one whose TAVAFA is being done it always means the separation of soul from the body. although, it may be partial and temporary (i.e. at the time of sleep) or it may be complete and permanent (i.e. at the time of death) as Allah says
It is Allah that takes the souls <yatavafa> (of men) at death: and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death He keeps back (from returning to life) but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed. Verily in this are Signs for those who reflect. Sura Az-Zumar verse 42. (Translation by A. Yousaf Ali).
Here Allah clearly says that there are only two ways in which He does the **Tuvafa **of human being but regret for those who attributes a third type of **Tavafa **(i.e. bodily ascension) to Allah (In the case of Jesus / Essa only) without fear of Allah.
The following verses are very clear in ascertaining the meaning of Vaffa, Tuvafa, Mutavafa etc in the Qur’an itself.
Verses of Holy Quran where Allah (or His angle) does Tuvafa and human being is one whose Tuvafa is done means seperation of soul from body (i.e. death):
Our Lord! surely we have heard a preacher calling to the faith, saying: Believe in your Lord, so we did believe; Our Lord! forgive us therefore our faults, and cover our evil deeds and** MAKE US DIE with the righteous.** (3:193)
And you do not take revenge on us except because we have believed in the communications of our Lord when they came to us! Our Lord: Pour out upon us patience and CAUSE US TO DIE in submission. (7:126)
My Lord! Thou hast given me of the kingdom and taught me of the interpretation of sayings: Originator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my guardian in this world and the hereafter;** MAKE ME DIE A MUSLIM ** and join me with the good. (12:101)
But how will it be when the angels **CAUSE THEM TO DIE <tawafat’hum> **smiting their backs. (47:27)
And Allah has created you, then** He CAUSES YOU TO DIE <yatawaffa’kum>,** and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; surely Allah is Knowing, Powerful. (16:70)
O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is CAUSED TO DIE , and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life.. (22:5)
Say: The angel of death who is given charge of you shall** CAUSE YOU TO DIE ,** then to your Lord you shall be brought back. (32:11)
**Now let us again see the verse which discusses about Allah's ‘Vaffat’ to Jesus (p).**
Lo ! God said: `O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto me, and cleanse thee of those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the day of resurrection. In the end unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to alon which you were wont to differ. (3:55)
**In above Allah clearly informs that He will complete Jesus' life on earth, and this is confirmed again, namely that Jesus had to die a natural death, when we are reminded through Jesus himself stating on the Last Day:**
I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst CAUSE ME TO DIE <tavafaytani>, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things (5:117 )(Shakir)
**In above verse Jesus' statement that :**
..when Thou didst cause me to die.. <fallamatavafaaytani>
**Is confirming what Allah had earlier said to him in 3:55:**
..Verily I shall cause thee to die... <inni mutavafeeka>
**In other words Jesus was neither crucified nor taken up into heaven but Allah caused him to die a natural death, i.e. fully completed his life span. Then in the above mentioned verse Jesus is saying:**
..and I was a witness of them AS LONG AS I WAS AMONG THEM.. <wa kuntu alayhim shahidun maa dumtu feehim> ..
And further he says;
...but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them.. <falama tavafaytani kunta antar raqiba alayhim>.
**Here Jesus clearly mentions two periods, one in which he dwelt among his people, and the other in which Allah caused him to die. There is no other period mentioned here which informs of a stage of being taken up and stationed in heaven temporarily.**
**~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~**
**Some more Verses of Holy Quran where Allah (or His angle) does “Tuvafa” and human being is one whose “Tuvafa” is done means seperation of soul from body (i.e. death): **
“Our Lord! surely we have heard a preacher calling to the faith, saying: Believe in your Lord, so we did believe; Our Lord! forgive us therefore our faults, and cover our evil deeds and** MAKE US DIE** <tuwaffana> with the righteous.” (3:193)
Roman Arabic: Rabba na inna na samena munaadi yanyunaadi lil imaani an aminoo birabbikum fa aamanna. rabba na faghfirlana zanoobana wa kaffir anna sayyeaatena watawaffana ma'al abrar.
Non-Ahmadi Translation: 193. "Our Lord! we have heard the call of one calling (Us) to Faith, 'Believe ye in the Lord,' and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and **take to Thyself our souls** in the company of the righteous.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“And you do not take revenge on us except because we have believed in the communications of our Lord when they came to us! Our Lord: Pour out upon us patience and **CAUSE US TO DIE** <tuwaffana> in submission.” (7:126)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **126.** "But thou dost wreak thy vengeance on us simply because we believed in the Signs of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience and constancy, and **take our souls** unto thee as Muslims (who bow to thy will)!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“My Lord! Thou hast given me of the kingdom and taught me of the interpretation of sayings: Originator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my guardian in this world and the hereafter; **MAKE ME DIE A MUSLIM** <tuwaffani muslim an> and join me with the good.” (12:101)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **101.** "O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams and events,- O Thou Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. **Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim)**, and unite me with the righteous."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“But how will it be when the angels **CAUSE THEM TO DIE** <tawafat'hum> smiting their backs.” (47:27)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **27.** But how (will it be) when the angels **take their souls at death**, and smite their faces and their backs?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“And Allah has created you, then He **CAUSES YOU TO DIE** <yatawaffa'kum>, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; surely Allah is Knowing, Powerful.” (16:70)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **70.** It is Allah who creates you and **takes your souls at death**; and of you there are some who are sent back to a feeble age, so that they know nothing after having known (much): for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Powerful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is **CAUSED TO DIE** <yutawaffa>, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life....” (22:5)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **5.** O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are **called to die**, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Say: The angel of death who is given charge of you shall **CAUSE YOU TO DIE** <yatawafaakum>, then to your Lord you shall be brought back.” (32:11)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **11.** Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) **take your souls**: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Source of Non Ahmadi Translation: [The Holy Quran](http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/Surai.htm)
P.S - Appology for the copy paste. But I would particularly like to hear view of Mods on above post.
I replied to you. Don't blame it on me.
yes you did reply to me in the light of your own Aqal and logic.
Prove what? Death does not need to be proved. Its already proven and Quran & Hadith don't negate that.
It's not true. All the ayat Ahmadis have given so far don't prove the death of Isa(AS).
Oh, the last resort argument...when no other option left its "Allah can do everything so he must have done this too" argument. I was wondering when this will pop up..
Well like it or not, Muslims believe in this ayat "Allah has Power over everything" completely.
Buddy Allah does what he wises but did Allah actually do this event i.e. raising ISa (as) to "UP" alive? Allah doesn't say anywhere so what is your justification for making such a claim?
Because this is what all the Scholars, Taba Ta'baen and Sahaba learnt from the Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
Also, there are plenty of sahih ahadith about end times and Isa(AS)'s descend.
Did Allah say he raised Isa (as) alive? If not then what justification is there that this miracle took place? You can't just make up anything and attribute it to Allah when Allah has not affirmed it.
“That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself (bal Rafa`ahu Allahu ilayhi); and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (An-Nisa’: 157-158)
“That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself (bal Rafa`ahu Allahu ilayhi); and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (An-Nisa’: 157-158)
hmmm.....I was just wondering what does Rafa' means?
According to the post just above yours perhaps say it means: DEATH.
yes you did reply to me in the light of your own Aqal and logic.
It's not true. All the ayat Ahmadis have given so far don't prove the death of Isa(AS).
All humans die. No proof required. Any exception then you need to provide proof for it.
[Quote]
Well like it or not, Muslims believe in this ayat "Allah has Power over everything" completely.
Because this is what all the Scholars, Taba Ta'baen and Sahaba learnt from the Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
[/Quote]
What does this mean exactly? Do you attribute anything to Allah? If not you need to provide proof of it otherwise you are attributing a lie to Allah. Prove that Allah says somewhere that he raised Isa (as) alive to "UP". You have still not been able to explain what "UP" is. You don’t even understand your own belief let alone provide a proof for it.
[Quote]
Also, there are plenty of sahih ahadith about end times and Isa(AS)'s descend.
[/Quote]
Let's deal with ascend first then we'll deal with descend.
[Quote]
“That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself (bal Rafa`ahu Allahu ilayhi); and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (An-Nisa’: 157-158)
[/Quote]
Most people are not killed or crucified but nobody claims they went to heaven alive. What's your point quoting this verse? Where does this verse say clearly that Isa (As) was raised alive outside this world to "UP"? The phrase 'so and so person has gone to god' always means he is dead. You have taken clutching to straws to another level. This verse has been discussed too many times.
The Arabic word “mutawaffika” is derived from the root “tawaffa” and is referred always in the Qur’an as meaning “to cause someone to die”. However, the word originally means “taking”. One says: “tawaffaytu min fulanin ma liya `alayhi”. Meaning: “I have taken back my debt from so and so”. It also means “To make someone fall asleep” as mentioned in the ayah 60 of Al Anam.
[quote="d-tox.ed"]
**Now let us again see the verse which discusses about Allah's ‘Vaffat’ to Jesus (p).**
Lo ! God said: `**O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto me**, and cleanse thee of those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the day of resurrection. In the end unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to alon which you were wont to differ. (3:55)
In above Allah clearly informs that He will complete Jesus' life on earth, and this is confirmed again, namely that Jesus had to die a natural death, ....
[/QUOTE]
It doesn't make sense because how come causing someone to death is exalting him? Also, what does "Exalting unto me" mean?
[quote="d-tox.ed"]
**when we are reminded through Jesus himself stating on the Last Day:**
I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst CAUSE ME TO DIE <tavafaytani>, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things (5:117 )(Shakir)
**In above verse Jesus' statement that :**
..when Thou didst cause me to die.. <fallamatavafaaytani>
**Is confirming what Allah had earlier said to him in 3:55:**
..Verily I shall cause thee to die... <inni mutavafeeka>
**In other words Jesus was neither crucified nor taken up into heaven but Allah caused him to die a natural death, i.e. fully completed his life span. Then in the above mentioned verse Jesus is saying**:
..and I was a witness of them AS LONG AS I WAS AMONG THEM.. <wa kuntu alayhim shahidun maa dumtu feehim> ..
And further he says;
...but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them.. <falama tavafaytani kunta antar raqiba alayhim>.
**Here Jesus clearly mentions two periods, one in which he dwelt among his people, and the other in which Allah caused him to die. There is no other period mentioned here which informs of a stage of being taken up and stationed in heaven temporarily.**:
[/QUOTE]
Just replace the meaning with 'take' instead of 'die' and you'll get the Muslim perspective. i guess you wasted your time pasting these ahmadi translations and tafsir.
**~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~**
[quote="d-tox.ed"]
**Some more Verses of Holy Quran where Allah (or His angle) does “Tuvafa” and human being is one whose “Tuvafa” is done means seperation of soul from body (i.e. death):**
“Our Lord! surely we have heard a preacher calling to the faith, saying: Believe in your Lord, so we did believe; Our Lord! forgive us therefore our faults, and cover our evil deeds and** MAKE US DIE** <tuwaffana> with the righteous.” (3:193)
Roman Arabic: Rabba na inna na samena munaadi yanyunaadi lil imaani an aminoo birabbikum fa aamanna. rabba na faghfirlana zanoobana wa kaffir anna sayyeaatena watawaffana ma'al abrar.
Non-Ahmadi Translation: 193. "Our Lord! we have heard the call of one calling (Us) to Faith, 'Believe ye in the Lord,' and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and **take to Thyself our souls** in the company of the righteous.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“And you do not take revenge on us except because we have believed in the communications of our Lord when they came to us! Our Lord: Pour out upon us patience and **CAUSE US TO DIE** <tuwaffana> in submission.” (7:126)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **126.** "But thou dost wreak thy vengeance on us simply because we believed in the Signs of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience and constancy, and **take our souls** unto thee as Muslims (who bow to thy will)!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“My Lord! Thou hast given me of the kingdom and taught me of the interpretation of sayings: Originator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my guardian in this world and the hereafter; **MAKE ME DIE A MUSLIM** <tuwaffani muslim an> and join me with the good.” (12:101)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **101.** "O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams and events,- O Thou Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. **Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim)**, and unite me with the righteous."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“But how will it be when the angels **CAUSE THEM TO DIE** <tawafat'hum> smiting their backs.” (47:27)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **27.** But how (will it be) when the angels **take their souls at death**, and smite their faces and their backs?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“And Allah has created you, then He **CAUSES YOU TO DIE** <yatawaffa'kum>, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; surely Allah is Knowing, Powerful.” (16:70)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **70.** It is Allah who creates you and **takes your souls at death**; and of you there are some who are sent back to a feeble age, so that they know nothing after having known (much): for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Powerful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is **CAUSED TO DIE** <yutawaffa>, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life....” (22:5)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **5.** O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are **called to die**, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Say: The angel of death who is given charge of you shall **CAUSE YOU TO DIE** <yatawafaakum>, then to your Lord you shall be brought back.” (32:11)
Non-Ahmadi Translation: **11.** Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) **take your souls**: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Source of Non Ahmadi Translation: [The Holy Quran](http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/Surai.htm)
P.S - Appology for the copy paste. But I would particularly like to hear view of Mods on above post.
[/QUOTE]
As i said before, It also means “To make someone fall asleep”. This meaning is mentioned in the Qur’anic verse that reads: **“It is He who doth take your souls (*yatawaffakum*) by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up (*yab`athukum*) again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did.”** (Al-An`am: 60)
All humans die. No proof required. Any exception then you need to provide proof for it.
What does this mean exactly? Do you attribute anything to Allah? If not you need to provide proof of it otherwise you are attributing a lie to Allah. Prove that Allah says somewhere that he raised Isa (as) alive to "UP". You have still not been able to explain what "UP" is. You don’t even understand your own belief let alone provide a proof for it.
I don't need to provide a proof. And i can say the same that you are the one who can't come up with a proof of Jesus's death so you're the one who's attributing a lie to Allah.
Let's deal with ascend first then we'll deal with descend.
i'm sorry but that's stupid.
Most people are not killed or crucified but nobody claims they went to heaven alive. What's your point quoting this verse? Where does this verse say clearly that Isa (As) was raised alive outside this world to "UP"? The phrase 'so and so person has gone to god' always means he is dead. You have taken clutching to straws to another level. This verse has been discussed too many times.
okay so what does "but so it was made to appear to them," mean?
The Arabic word “mutawaffika” is derived from the root “tawaffa” and is referred always in the Qur’an as meaning “to cause someone to die”. However, the word originally means “taking”. One says: “tawaffaytu min fulanin ma liya `alayhi”. Meaning: “I have taken back my debt from so and so”. It also means “To make someone fall asleep” as mentioned in the ayah 60 of Al Anam.
Just replace the meaning with 'take' instead of 'die' and you'll get the Muslim perspective. i guess you wasted your time pasting these ahmadi translations and tafsir.
You just cannot take one meaning at one place and other at other to suit your need. BTW its not a copy paste from somewhere else. I made those posts earlier in another thread if same forum. And Non-Ahmadi translations and quotes are clearly written and sited for your comfort.
As i said before, It also means “To make someone fall asleep”. This meaning is mentioned in the Qur’anic verse that reads: “It is He who doth take your souls (yatawaffakum) by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up (yab`athukum) again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did.” (Al-An`am: 60)
So you are saying Hadhrat Esa (A.S) is sleeping?
You just cannot take one meaning at one place and other at other to suit your need. BTW its not a copy paste from somewhere else. I made those posts earlier in another thread if same forum. And Non-Ahmadi translations and quotes are clearly written and sited for your comfort.
hmmm.....I was just wondering what does Rafa' means?
According to the post just above yours perhaps say it means: DEATH
You have to take different meanings of words in Quran in different places according to the context and hadith and sunnah otherwise there will be lots of misconceptions, for example, if we translate "rafa" as death or killing then we'll be saying,
63. And remember We took your covenant and We killed above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) :
instead of
63. And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah."
So you are saying Hadhrat Esa (A.S) is sleeping?
I know he's alive.
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
so you agree that rafa can mean:
sleep,
death,
Ascention?
ell like it or not, Muslims believe in this ayat "Allah has Power over everything" completely.
So Allah can do everything I guess?
And BTW, you didn't answer my last question yet.
Peace de-tox..ed
There are rules in Arabic and rules for the Qur’an. Dictionaries will not always pick up the rules for the Qur’an because they are meant in the specific case, which can only be obtained from the analytic tools that mujtahid’s have at their disposal.
In short all your post provides the general meanings and does in no way negate the specific meaning, especially when the specific meaning is attributed and supported by hadith.
In English we tend to say in the general sense “He left this world” meaning that “He died” but albeit in a more polite manner. However, just may be it is meant literally sometimes and indeed it is, when someone talks poetically about astronauts. It then all of sudden does NOT mean that he died. A similar sensitivity needs to be observed with scripture and our own rules and biases should not be allowed to dictate that for us. Rather we should submit to what our scholars in consensus tell us and review their writings and the opinions of the early Muslims, based on hadith and Qur’an.
why we believe that? because its in Quran and hadith.. and hence requires no logic.
Assumption. Yesterday was sunny, today was sunny,( because we witnessed it ).. tomorrow doesnt necessarily has to be sunny day.
PS: You said earlier, the verses in quran mentioning being alive of Jesus outweigh the verses indicating His death. You havent yet quoted a single verse. Please, I want to really know after reading Quran with translation so many times, how did i miss the verses you're refering to? Please present verses of Quran supporting your belief. Thank you.
PS: Just as you will be presenting Quranic verses, I'd like to hear from you in a simple yes or no, whether He will be born again or not?. Thanks again.
Even if you look at the weather forecast the likelihood of a sunny day following after or coming before another sunny day is higher than the chances of getting one sunny day and another rainy day in sequence. It is not to say either cannot happen. But without further evidence neither position is proven or disproven. It therefore follows that because Isa (AS) already has had a life of miracle it follows that it is not unexpected for otehr aspects of his life to be miraculous also. Anyway, this discussion has very quickly swung into logical and intellectual debates rather than a discussion of the standards that you want us to base this debate on. Let's go back to the Qur'an and hadith inshaAllah.
I'm not in the habit of using Qur'an and hadith to refute Qur'an and hadith. Let me fully consult your references first and then we will look at my references inshaAllah. Please remember this post, and bring it to my attention if after fully consulting with your posts I have not presented my case. Remember also that you have posted ayat of the Qur'an and I hold them dearly in my heart and I will not let them go by without clarifying the position they are supposed to be held in. That is the reason why I am not muddying the waters by bringing verses in to play ... quite frankly I think others here have made it difficult to get right to the source on each verse by flood posting. I think it is possible to present the case with each of your verses so instead of asking me to give references let me fully exhaust my persepctive on the ones you have provided. They too are my references but in a different sort of way.
Peace brother Mr.Popat
By the way I did not infer at all that the Qur'an states that Jesus (AS) has died, rather I said that the Qur'an speaks of his death and of his life and the INTERPRETATION of him being dead is outweighed by the interpretation of him being alive. i.e. even the verses you bring to support your argument can be shown to support the opposite position albeit more directly.