I warned you, I have already given the evidence from your first post what were you true intentions, which were picked by other Muslim brothers too. No more discussion on it, you have made your bed now lay in it. I am perfectly entitled to show my Muslims brothers and sisters, the true meanings of the writings of Mirza on the issue of death of ISA As so they can understand the real Mirza. Exactly what you wanted them to know, with one difference it will be the true face not the distorted image you wanted to present with spin.
[QUOTE]
where is the discrepancy ? No Muslim believe His (AS)'s death on cross.
[/QUOTE]
I told you, you are losing your credibility fast.** I quoted this in response to your ignorance for the first question I posed to you. This is the proof from Mirza’s writings when the conversation in 3:55 between Allah SWT and Isa As took place. **To prove it to you what Mirza thought when this conversation took place.
[QUOTE]
if it is , please do let me know. You did not write anything on that regards.
[/QUOTE]
What have you been reading for last few days? You still didn’t get my message yet, the difference between Mirza and other Muslims who believed or believe that Quran proves the death of Hazarat Isa As?
[QUOTE]
You said all Muslims know when that conversation took place
[/QUOTE]
Off course they do, so did Mirza and Zafrullah. You still have any doubts about it?
I am not worried about your discussion with others, it is you and me, I can not be responsible for someone’s material or arguments. Brother can answer himself whatever discussion he had with you. I don’t need to read it or comment on it.
[QUOTE] no. Prophet Muhammad PBUH never had that kind of conversation with Allah ( not that i know of ), because His (SAW)'s death was not questionable,
[/QUOTE]
This paragraph is priceless, thank you Mr. Popat, for making my point perfectly. When I said you have absolutely no knowledge of the Holy Quran I was correct. You are ignorant from Islamic teachings. This is the biggest heresy a Muslim could ever think about. But you being follower of Mirza didn’t think before writing or pause to check what you are writing.
My Muslim brothers and sisters, I explain to you what heresy is committed by Mr. Popat in above paragraph I quoted from his last post. What he is saying in other words is that Quran is written after the events nauzobillah. Like the prophecies of Mirza which I had exposed in my other articles.
1- The Quranic verses on the great victory for Prophet Muhammad SAW and the believers were promised before Fateh Mecca. When Prophet Muhammad SAW and Muslims were facing sever opposition and hostilities from the Kuffar, the Jews, the Christians and the Munafeeqon. There was serious threat to the life of Prophet Muhammad SAW during this period. But Allah SWT never revealed this promise to Prophet Muhammad SAW “ I will cause you to die” which Mirza and his followers take as death from natural causes.
2- Mr. Popat says that Quran did not disclose it, because the death of Prophet SAW was not questionable. How ignorant he is. Doesn’t he know that Quran was completed in the life of Prophet Muhammad SAW? Doesn’t he know that all these news were given to Prophet Muhammad SAW by Allah SWT before the events? Doesn’t he know that all the Verses were already revealed and recorded in the Holy Quran, in real time, as soon as they were revealed? Doesn’t he know in what conditions and how prophets SAW left Mecca? During his migration journey where did he hide when the Kuffars were searching for him SAW in the mountains on the way to Medina? Didn’t he know Allah SWT sent Gabriel AS to warn Prophet, to disclose to him SAW the plans of the Kuffars to kill Prophet Muhammad SAW that vary night; ordering him SAW to migrate immediately? He should know Mirza has written a very nasty piece on the hiding place of Prophet Muhammad SAW.
3- Mr. Popat is showing his complete ignorance of the Holy Quran and the Islamic history. He says at that it is not mentioned in the Quran because his SAW death was not questionable. Will someone please tell this man who wanted to discuss this incident in the light of the Holy Quran that Prophet Muhammad SAW died after the completion of the Holy Quran? And those Verses were revealed in real time, not as after events like Mirza written about the death of his brother and father, exposed by me.
4- Second aspect of his blasphemous statement is that in Quran Allah SWT has only mentioned this conversation because the death of Isa As is questionable. In other words he is trying to say is that it was not the real conversation happened between Allah SWT and Prophet Isa AS at the time of the crucifixion, even despite proofs from his own Jamat’s resources. Though he himself says that conversation happened in the life of the Prophet Isa As. But instead Allah SWT decided to mention this in the Holy Quran because the death of Isa As became questionable. Or did he mean that the death of Isa As was questionable before his actual death according to Mirza? This death happened almost 95 years after this conversation according to Mirza. Bravo Mr. Popat way to go.
Mr. Popat, probably reality is dawning on you. You wanted to have the debate in the light of the Holy Quran, I am asking you questions in the light of the Quran, but you are clueless to answer simple questions. Didn’t I tell you, your material is borrowed from your pocket books, while I use my own arguments? I don’t need to check any books, pocket books, specially written articles, produced in your department which train your Murabis to answer all the objections raised by the Muslims. You think I am going to indulge with you in debate on the basis of what you practice?
You know what your problem is you are ever so predictable. But then what can you bring which surprises me?
I predicted to my Muslim brothers and sisters, you wouldnt answer very simple quesitons. Now don’t come up with more heresies. I want answers to the questions, why Allah SWT didn’t had this kind of conversation with any Prophet, even though there were prophets whose life was under sever threat from their opponents?
I want Quranic proofs that Allah SWT decreed this to any Prophet including Prophet Muhammad SAW specially Prophet Jonah AS, when he As was in the belly of the Whale?
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
LOL! get yourself checked crankthatskunk.
Death is by default. It is a fact of life. Whether it be for a normal human being or with prophets of Allah. If Allah didnt have that kind of conversation with Muhammad PBUH, or other prophets.. that He will 'cause thee to die' does not mean that they are all alive. Does it?
Lets just take one thing at a time , shall we? No talking about Jamaat e Ahmadiyya and only talk with Quranic knowledge that you possess. Things will be much easier to understand for me as well as for you.
I am going to go very slowly on this topic. Please stop me where you have any kind of questions.
We Muslims believe that Allah has sent down a book on Jesus (AS) known as injeel. The fact of the matter is, that book was also been completed in the lifetime of Jesus (AS). Why then do you think christians started to believe Jesus (AS) ascended to heavens? where did the teachings of the true injeel went?
The fact also that Quran was completed in the lifetime of Muhammad PBUH is true. There is not an iota of doubt in it. Though, if nauzubillah Prophet Muhammad PBUH had been killed, would there have been any changes in Quran ? Again, whoever Allah appoints as Prophets, Allah guards them against their opponents and that is a fact. Jesus (AS) is no exception, neither was Prophet Muhammad PBUH. They both have died their natural death. Their enemies despite trying failed in every attempt. There is not only just one verse that you mentioned speaking of Jesus (AS)'s death but many.
the conversation took place was so that there wont be anymore misconception of Jesus (AS)'s death. When Christians were thinking that He went up in heavens and jews were thinking that they killed him, Allah said to him that he'll cause him to die a natural death.
Why hasnt this conversation took place with Muhammad PBUH? for the reason that if He (SAW) nauzubillah gets killed by His opponents , there wont be any misconceptions amongst anyone. When he SAW gets killed, he is killed. There really is no brainer here. Quran was completed in His(SAW)'s lifetime, and hence if such an event with Muhammad (SAW) (of being killed) was to occur, Allah would have said that in Quran. The fact that it did not, means natural death will get to him.
If you are the one in support of His (AS)'s ascension to heavens , why do you not enlighten me as well as your 'muslim brother and sisters' when the conversation took place and why it didnt take place with Muhammad PBUH.
My opinion on certain things may contradict with your opinions. Hence it is not wise and appropriate to continue to accuse me based on what I know. If you know the information, share with us. Why do you not? what is there to lose from your side?
sorry for jumping in but I would like to add a few words
The unique thing in the case of Jesus AS were:
1) His miraculous birth that Jews pointed fingers to
2) The jews wanted to crucify him. Crucifixion was considered to be an accursed death and they believe that if they succeed in their designs, it will be a seal on Jesus being a false prophet (Na auzabillah). A true messenger/prophet of Allah cannot die this way.
That is why Allah assured him that He will not let Jews crucify him or kill him, he will die a natural death. moreover, the charges on Jesus' honour will be washed away.
regarding the question whether, "TAWAFI" [cause you to die] was used for any other person. The answer is yes *but the situation is different from that of Jesus
*
[QUOTE]
10:46
PICKTHAL: ** Whether We let thee (O Muhammad) behold something of that which We promise them or (whether We) **cause thee to die, still unto Us is their return, and Allah, moreover, is Witness over what they do. SHAKIR: And if We show you something of what We threaten them with, or cause you to die, yet to Us is their return, and Allah is the bearer of witness to what they do.
[/QUOTE]
There could be other ayat as well that use the word 'TAWAFI" for death
Let’s just take one thing at a time, shall we? No talking about Jamaat e Ahmadiyya and only talk with Quranic knowledge that you possess. Things will be much easier to understand for me as well as for you.
[/QUOTE]
Stop showing your dishonesty again and again, this was your real purpose to start this thread;
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Lets have a very healthy and topic related discussion here. No question about jamaat e Ahmadiyya here. Though, this discussion may lead some people to think and understand about the claims that the founder of ahmadiyya jamaat made.
[/QUOTE]
*Therefore, Mr. Popat stop playing this game. I am also helping the readers of this debate, specially my Muslims brothers and sisters to understand the claims of the founder of Qadiani Jamat; Mirza Ghulam-e-Ahmed Qadiani. Let the readers think and understand his claims in the light of Holy Quran and his writings. *
[QUOTE]
Death is by default. It is a fact of life. Whether it be for a normal human being or with prophets of Allah. If Allah didnt have that kind of conversation with Muhammad PBUH, or other prophets.. that He will 'cause thee to die' does not mean that they are all alive. Does it?
[/QUOTE]
Ahaan, so now you get it, thank you for admitting it, that’s where I wanted you to be. Could you please tell us, was not the death of Isa AS by default as well? Wasn’t it a natural thing to have occurred to him like any ordinary human being and like all the other Prophets?
Why then according to your understanding and claims of Mirza, Allah SWT had this conversation with Isa As at the time of crucifixion that He SWT will” cause him AS to die” (natural death according to you and Mirza)? Wouldn’t the death of Isa As have occurred naturally, like any other human being and other Prophets?
Doesn’t Allah SWT cause every one to die, if it is natural, by accident or murdered by someone’s hands? Or do you have any other creator in mind which causes death?
I am warning you Mr. Popat your arguments that because he As was persecuted by the Jews is already defeated. Every Prophet was persecuted by their nations, including our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW. But Allah SWT never reminded them of something, which would have occurred naturally. Why the exception in the case of Isa As? Unless your meaning is bogus, to say the least, and this conversation does not mean what Mirza claimed “Cause you to die” a natural death in the future. Because Quranic evidence suggest Allah SWT never ever used this phrase for any other Prophet of Allah SWT, not even to our Prophet SAW.
You got two choices; either to accept that in the Holy Quran Allah SWT made an exception in the case of Prophet Isa AS, compare to other prophets.
Or you tell us the Muslims where is the proof in the Holy Quran that Allah SWT gave same assurances to all the Prophets who were under persecution by their People?
There must have been something about to happen; something extra ordinary, just before the crucifixion that Allah SWT had this conversation with Isa As. There are only two possibilities, which I intend to show at the end, Inshallah.
I have already given examples from the Holy Quran for Prophet Muhammad SAW and believers, now I produced Quranic verse confirming that true Prophets of Allah SWT were slain by their nations. As you see, it is in the same Surah Imran. You said we should look at other verses in the Surah to see the correct meanings of 3:55. We are looking at one right now, but I will look in to the preceding and following verses of 3:55 in due course.
3:112 Overshadowed by ignominy are they wherever they may be, save [when they bind themselves again] in a bond with God and a bond with men; for they have earned the burden of God’s condemnation, and are overshadowed by humiliation: all this [has befallen them] because they persisted in denying the truth of God’s messages and in slaying the prophets against all right: all this, because they rebelled [against God], and persisted in transgressing the bounds of what is right.
This verse was quoted by me to answer the claims of Mirza that he should be accepted truthful because he passed the test of 23 years recipient of alleged Wahi, like Prophet Muhammad SAW (nauzobillah). Claim of Mirza which I have refuted comprehensively in my article.
Nevertheless, the Quranic Evidence is there that true prophets of Allah SWT were slain by their nations. Why Allah SWT didn’t give them this assurance? Their life was under threat wasn’t it? They actually were killed, according to the Quranic evidence. They would have died a natural death if they were not killed, wouldn’t they? So why they didn’t get the same assurance “cause you to die” from Allah SWT?
[QUOTE]
We Muslims believe that Allah has sent down a book on Jesus (AS) known as injeel. The fact of the matter is, that book was also been completed in the lifetime of Jesus (AS). Why then do you think christians started to believe Jesus (AS) ascended to heavens? where did the teachings of the true injeel went?
[/QUOTE]
And what is your point? Didn’t Quran tell us what happened to the teachings of Injeel? Or you are completely ignorant to the teachings of the Holy Quran?
For second part I can only say ahaan once again, now it is dawning on you slowly and gradually, but you are so devoid of basic knowledge of the Holy Quran that you just don’t get it. Tell us then would the death of Jesus be mentioned in the Injeel he received? Or his ascension to heaven would have been mentioned in the Injeel he received? Is the death of Prophet Muhammad SAW mentioned in the Holy Quran?
And why you think Muslims believe that he ascended to heavens as well, but with one difference without being put on the cross at all. That’s why we are having this discussion, that’s where Mirza differed from the Muslims who believed Prophet ISA As has died. I will come to the concoctions of “natural death” your cult has introduced to the verse 3:55.
But at the moment, first you cross the hurdle of “cause you to die”. Same is the case for other verses on the death of Isa As in the Holy Quran, we will look at them in due course, I can promise you, you will not find any joy there either. As we Muslims can observe you have not answered one question I posed to you from the Holy Quran. I warned you, if you Qadianis think death of Isa AS is your strong point then you are mistaken, this is actually your weakest. Wait until I come to the writings of Mirza specially “Jesus in India” then the wisdom of Mirza would be out in the open.
Mr. Popat, keep asking really smart (in your mind), but self defeating questions. I know it is not your fault, you are not finding the answers to my questions in 80+ books of Mirza and in your Jamat’s resources.
I produce another clear example of your smart mind playing tricks with you. It is true without real knowledge and understanding one is lost completely, no matter how smart they think they are, similar was the case with Mirza, as it with you.
[QUOTE]
the conversation took place was so that there wont be anymore misconception of Jesus (AS)'s death. When Christians were thinking that He went up in heavens and jews were thinking that they killed him, Allah said to him that he'll cause him to die a natural death.
[/QUOTE]
My Muslim Brother and Sisters, please observe the intelligence of Mr. Popat with your own eyes. I warned him that answer to my questions and my approach he wouldn’t find in his cult’s literature. But he thought I was boasting. Now he is reduced to making heretical and self defeating statements one after another. Above is a glaring example of it. I will explain it to you, but before I want some clarifications from him.
Mr. Popat what are you actually saying here?
Christians were thinking he AS ascended to heaven and Jews were thinking they killed him, after the crucifixion, isn’t?
Are you saying therefore, this conversation took places after the crucifixion and after Isa As escaping the crucifixion according to Mirza?
Didn’t you earlier say this conversation took place because he AS was given hard time and was persecuted by the Jews?
He should always remember that he wanted to have this discussion on the evidence from the Holy Quran. This is going to hurt him and his Jamat so badly, that he has absolutely no idea. This is just a start. I will destroy every single concoction Mirza had on the issue of death of Isa As, Inshallah.
Mr. Popat has already put this argument dead in the water, when he said, when he AS was persecuted by the Jews. I have already asked him was he As persecuted by the Jews in Kashmir too, for which we didn’t get any answers. I suggest he should pause and think, long and hard, where I am taking him. But it does not matter what he tries, he will end up there, there is no way out for him.
Not to mentioned he has performed such a huge own goal; he has ruined it for himself and for Mirza completely now by stating what is quoted above. This was the problem Mirza faced. He realized he can be caught on this point, therefore, he has written a marvelously mischievous but self defeating paragraph in his book. I will disclose that information too at appropriate time, provided Mr. Popat can last that long.
[QUOTE]
Why hasnt this conversation took place with Muhammad PBUH? for the reason that if He (SAW) nauzubillah gets killed by His opponents , there wont be any misconceptions amongst anyone. When he SAW gets killed, he is killed. There really is no brainer here. Quran was completed in His(SAW)'s lifetime, and hence if such an event with Muhammad (SAW) (of being killed) was to occur, Allah would have said that in Quran. The fact that it did not, means natural death will get to him.
[/QUOTE]
Oh man, you are making me laugh now, where is your brain, when you write this kind of paragraphs? There would have been no misconceptions amongst anyone, if Isa As was crucified? Why would there be? He would have been crucified exactly like you said. If he As is crucified, he is crucified. What is the difference if one gets killed in the War or one gets crucified? Absolutely none; both have departed from this earth.
Second part of your paragraph is even more hilarious. How would have Allah SWT said it in the Quran if Prophet Muhammad SAW were to be killed by his enemies? Wasn’t he SAW the recipient of Quranic revelations?
The fact that ISA As didn’t get crucified and live long afterwards according to Mirza and according to your contentions, then as you said it would have means natural death, then why Allah SWT had that conversation with ISA AS at the time of crucifixion? There should have been no need for it at all.
The same arguments you used for Prophet SAW, can be used for Isa As, according to Mirza he didn’t die, so why mention it in the Holy Quran? It would have meant natural death will get him, exactly like you said about Prophet Muhammad SAW in above paragraph quoted. We will come to the question again and again, then why is it mentioned in the Holy Quran?
Allah SWT could have mentioned that in the Injeel? Like you wrote that if Prophet Muhammad SAW has been killed He SWT could have mentioned it in the Holy Quran, and that’s it, end of the matter. But who received the Injeel, if he was killed, or crucified, how Allah SWT could have mentioned this in Injeel?
It didn’t happened like this; therefore, you are on square one. Why did Allah SWT said to Jesus AS “I will cause you to die”. When we find no such evidence of these words in the Holy Quran for any other prophets, who faced the same threats and persecutions like Isa AS, some of them survived and lived a long life and died naturally. Some of them were killed as Quranic evidence proves, but none of them had this assurance given to them, no matter if they escaped the death from their people or were killed by their people. But none of them had this assurance given to them, why?
Unless he As was never given the assurance that he will die of natural causes. This insertion of natural death or death of natural causes is a Qadianis invention any way, which we will discuss at the right time. At the moment you need to get out of the hole first and answer questions from the Holy Quran.
[QUOTE]
If you are the one in support of His (AS)'s ascension to heavens , why do you not enlighten me as well as your 'muslim brother and sisters' when the conversation took place and why it didnt take place with Muhammad PBUH.
[/QUOTE]
Off course, I am working on this thread, so my Muslim brothers and sisters finds the real meanings of this verse in the context of understanding and finding out why you and Mirza are wrong. I told you at the start, there are some Muslims who believed from the start that Isa As has died. Some still do, like ASAD whose translation I quoted, or people like Ghamdi. But none of them believed in Jesus in India non-sense, nor any of them take the dishonest meaning used by your Jamat. Asad has done probably best meaning of “cause you to die” in a sense he is from modern school, secondly, he was a converted Jew so he was well aware of their history. His meanings and yours are oceans apart. I will deal with it inshallah at the end.
Why it didn’t took place with Prophet Muhammad SAW is very obvious, it is also very obvious that the meaning you take is bogus. That’s why the occasion when this conversation took place is vitally important, in that aspect ASAD meaning of this verse makes perfect sense, correct or not, but he does not have any bogus meanings inserted nor did he took flight of the fancy like Mirza.
You should read the masterpiece of Mirza “Jesus in India” with open eyes it would become very clear to you, if you have any brain and know how to use it. It is as clear as day. But then those people whose eyes and ears are sealed by Allah SWT can not see, or hear the truth.
I know you can not answer the questions asked from you, I will move on, but after you give clarifications I asked you, in response to one of your quotes.
crankthatskunk, now this is dishonesty from your side. I have said it many times that i do not want to talk about jamaat e ahmadiyya in this thread but you continue to bring it despite me asking you talk only based on Quran.
I dare you or any other reader to find any discrepancy between what i said and what Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) said. Crankthatskunk, you wanted answer according to what my jamaat's belief is regarding that verse. You even quoted Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS). Let me quote Him (AS) again and quote myself once more. Find discrepancy if u can..
Quotation taken from Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS)'s writing..
[QUOTE]
“What happened was that God caused things to happen which saved Jesus from death on the cross. Justice demands that** we acknowledge the truth** and of what the Holy Quran have said, as opposed to the Jewish and Christian’s beliefs.”
[/QUOTE]
What I wrote, but slipped from crankthatskunk's eyes..
[QUOTE]
Its a whole new topic altogether. Again, i ask you to not bring Ahmadiyya jamaat in here. Jesus (AS) where ever he went was being accused of illegitimate birth. Thus, Allah has freed him from this in Quran. Kashmir or else where is not what the verse you provided ask me to reply. When did that conversation took place? answer I have given is that when he (AS) was alive. Doesnt matter where He went once he survived crucifixion. Allah has given Him the assurance that you (Jesus AS) will be given death the natural way and will not be killed by the hands of the jews ( jews plan of killing him will always fail ).
[/QUOTE]
crankthatskunk, let me know where you will find difference in what I said , what Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) said ?
PS: You have gotten my answer, it didnt have to be according to your way of thinking. I now ask you to provide me with information as to when the conversation took place and why it took place with Jesus (AS). You have gotten my answer. I am now waiting for yours. Only then can we move on to discuss other verses in Quran.
o well.. kya kiya jaa sakta hai bhai.. spreading the truth is my duty, and hating the propagation of false information related to Islam is my nature. crankthatskunk will never be able to prove His (AS)'s ascension towards heavens, on the other hand, i will continue to preach to him His death. Rest is upon Allah. As said in Quran.. “In their heart was a disease, and Allah increase them in their disease” in surah al-baqarah.. my duty ends when i tell him the truth. It will then be up to Allah whosoever He wishes to bring to the right path.
what he is not getting is that conversation time is irrelevant here.. and i asked him, if it is relevant ..provide us all with that information, so we could come on the right path. He has already made up his mind and will not listen to anything that contradicts his beliefs that their mullahs have fed him. ( and many others like him ). I have said it in other threads and ill say it in this thread. I am of neutral mind. If you convince me with your points. I will disregard the beliefs that i hold, and will believe what you have convinced me. I am here to learn. Convince me from Quran that He (AS) is alive… and i swear upon Allah i will disregard the belief of His death.
I think you should pin point the place where this conversation took place…and perhaps build a time machine for crank to go back in time and make sure that is the case…
Yeah, sure things which you can not prove; right? Anybody can make claims, does it means we have to worry about their baseless claims?
As for opposition to Jewish and Christian’s beliefs, do you read Quran? Can’t you see Quran is full of fallacies they have in their beliefs? There was no need for Mirza, or any role for him in Islam, apart from his heresies and lies.
Mr. Popat, you better keep this thread to the evidence from the Quran, which I have tried to concentrate on, and still would. I am here to expose your dishonesty in starting this thread.
That is all your fallacy, where in the Quran does it says he would die of natural death, that’s why we are having this debate, like I said, natural death is no where in the Quran, it is just your Mirza’s concoctions, he borrowed. There is no such word in the verse which can equate to “Natural Death”. You know it too. I will prove it why he inserted it and from where he borrowed the idea, so wait and see. Why should I worry about your concocted translations borrowed by Mirza?
The first part of this quotation is hilarious once again. Quran clears Isa AS from the allegations, but so did the New Testament; which also maintained that he was born of a Virgin Mary. The New Testament we all know was in existence before the revelations of the Holy Quran. That’s not the main purpose of the Holy Quran. The New Testament brought this false notion of his As divinity, due to his As birth without father; he As was born with the command of Allah SWT “Be” or “Kun”. Quran actually clarify and dispels this misconception of the Christians.
Can’t you see Mr. Popat, I am having this debate with you on your chosen meaning “cause you to die” 3:55 from the translation of Asad? There is a whole lot difference between “cause you to die” and “cause you to die a natural death”, which is fabrication of Mirza, based on him plagarising idea of some one. I will provide proofs of it.
Asad translations and his explanations, make perfect sense, while Mirza’s explanations are full of lies and deceit. That’s what I am exploring. So be patient. I will come to those “remarkable lies” oh I forgot you call them “remarkable truth” Mirza paddled.
As we can see, you despite making claims to discuss it from the Holy Quran you are unable to answer one simple question from the Holy Quran in support of Mirza and your Jamat.
Mr. Popat you didn’t give me the clarifications I asked in my last post, therefore, I take it you wanted to mean that this conversation happened after the crucifixion; in that case you are going against Mirza. That’s a good start.
My Muslim brothers and sisters, Mr. Popat has said something remarkable, which is against what Mirza said, I have already displayed it in my previous post.
He is basically either is accusing Allah SWT of lies (nauzobillah). He is saying that in the Quran Allah SWT brought this conversation as an after event because the Jews said they killed Isa As and the Christians said he As has ascended to the Heaven after the resurrection. Or he wanted to say that Allah SWT had this conversation after the crucifixion with Isa As, in other words, probably he meant either in Palestine or in Kashmir. I asked him to clarify but he refused.
Mr. Popat is trying to prove Qadianis invention “cause you to die natural death” instead of “cause you to die” which some Muslims believe too. We will come to that part in the end. But here let me bust this argument of Mr. Popat from the Holy Quran.
My Muslim Brothers and Sisters, this man open this thread for us Muslims to discuss the issue of death of Isa As from the Holy Quran and to understand the claims of Mirza. But what this illiterate is doing is making fun of the Word of Allah SWT, exactly like Mirza made fun of the Word of Allah SWT. Mirza associated white lies to Allah SWT by claiming his lies as alleged revelations, some of which I have exposed and others I will gradually, Inshallah.
I provided him quotations from Mirza and Zafrullah that they knew this conversation took place before the crucifixion. But he just doesn’t get it. He is writing heresies after heresies against Holy Quran, Word of Allah, but he has absolutely no fear, instead he thinks he has done some thing wonderful. This is apparent they way he is trying to laugh with his other cultist by using smiles.
He has the audacity to write that I have made up my mind. I am discussing his chose meanings of the verse 3:55. Nowhere, I have stated my beliefs, or my understandings. I am just going through with him the Quranic evidence with logical approach.
By now everyone knows that this man has not offer one explanation from the Holy Quran for each and every question I asked of him. He is making hallow claims to discuss it in the light of the Holy Quran. His purpose was purely to introduce the well rehearsed line of reasoning and quotations, which are taught to these Qadianis in their training schools.
He also wanted to look at proceeding and following Verses to 3:55, now is the right time to introduce one preceding verse, which Mr. Popat has ignored completely. Just to prove that timing of this conversation is important. The timing of this conversation is mentioned in the Holy Quran by Allah SWT but ignorant like Mr. Popat are hell bound to follow the lies of Mirza, it is he who has made up his mind, after reading and accepting lies of discredited Mirza, the biggest Mullah of them all, a so called prophet with begging bowl in his hands.
Let me prove it to all of you My Muslim brothers and sisters, how ignorant Mr. Popat really is from the teachings of the Holy Quran.
3:52 And when Jesus became aware of their refusal to acknowledge the truth, he asked: “Who will be my helpers in God’s cause?” The white-garbed ones replied: "We shall be [thy] helpers [in the cause] of God! We believe in God: and bear thou witness that we have surrendered ourselves unto Him!
This verse is crystal clear; the refusal was by the Jews to acknowledge the truth of Isa As. Isa As asked who would be his As helpers in the cause of God. The white-garbed ones replied, they would be helper in the cause of God.
Who were these White-Garbed ones? Asad, has provided full details of these people in his tafsir, That’s why I have written earlier, that ASAD’s meaning of “cause you to die” is completely different from the concoctions of Qadianis “cause you to die a natural death”.
Mirza inserted natural death to further his claims of being the re-incarnation of ISA As. Asad has provided full justifications for his use of “cause you to die”. His justifications are very plausible, right or wrong, he has put forward his point of view eloquently. Unlike Mirza who has introduced invention to the Holy Quran, by introducing “natural death” in to “cause you to die”.
According to Asad, white Garbs one’s denoted to Essence, according to some Scholars Jesus himself was an essence, Allah SWT Knows the best.
3:53 O our Sustainer! We believe in what Thou hast bestowed from on high, and we follow this Apostle; make us one, then, with all who bear witness [to the truth]!"
The white garbed, then prayed to Allah SWT, to make them one who bears witness to Prophet Isa As.
This is proven from the recently discovered dead sea scrolls. That Essence decided to move in to the mountains to live in caves, they didn’t have distorted their views like Christians.
Therefore, Quran very clearly decreed, when this conversation between Allah SWT and Isa As took place. It took place just before the alleged crucifixion.
But people like Mr. Popat are only interested to paddle their lies and concoctions. They do not hesitate for one single minute to attribute lies to the Holy Quran, the Word of Allah SWT. Muslim should ponder; this Mr. Popat is so ignorant about the teachings of Holy Quran, he didn’t have a clue on what the Verses really pointing to, in Surah Imran. He attributed such lies to the Word of Allah SWT by claiming Allah SWT had this discussion with ISA AS, after Christians were calling him AS god, and Jews were claiming they killed him.
So much so for this ignorant to invite Muslims to discuss death of ISA As in the light of the Holy Quran.
Next verse in Surah Imran decreed that Allah SWT is best of the planner, to show that He SWT defeated the Schemes of the disbelievers.
3:54 And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
Therefore, Allah SWT has decreed in the Holy Quran that He SWT planned too. He SWT foiled the attempts of the Jews who wanted Prophet ISA As to be crucified on the cross. I quote another verse from the Quran, where Allah SWT decreed the same for the incident of migration of Prophet SAW.
8:30 And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.
So what did Allah SWT did in the case of Prophet Muhammad SAW? He SWT sent Gabriel to inform Prophet SAW, and ordered him SAW to migrate immediately. He SWT guarded Prophet Muhammad SAW with Angels, so no harm came to him SAW. When Prophet Muhammad SAW was on his way to Medina, the Kuffars followed him SAW; they sent parties to kill him SAW. When Prophet SAW was in a cave, the spider “Ankabut” with Allah SWT command spread the web on the entrance of the cave, giving the impression it was empty for a while, seeing that the Kuffars turned away from the entrance of the Cave. And life of Prophet Muhammad SAW was saved once again, by the Will and Planning of Allah SWT.
Allah SWT never revealed to Prophet Muhammad SAW on either occasion that He SWT would “cause him to die” a natural death (as concocted by Mirza), and the enemies wouldn’t be able to kill him SAW.
Instead He SWT The Mighty and The Wise, protected him SAW. He SWT instead of giving assurances about his SAW life, gave glad tidings of a manifest victory over the enemies, in the Holy Quran, but never ever decreed that He SWT would “cause him SAW to die” a natural death.
What was the aim of the Jews, we may ask the Qadianis? It was to show to the world that Isa AS died an accursed death on the cross or stick (nauzobillah). What is the story prevalent in the world for last 2000 years? Jesus AS died on the cross and resurrected after 3 days to ascend to the heavens.
It is obvious, having him As crucified was the plan of the Jews not the Plan of Allah SWT. To have this weird notion, that Allah SWT let Isa As hang on the cross, pretend to die on it, and then migrate quietly to vanish in the thin air, is beyond comprehensions. In reality what have happened is that Jews still say, they killed him AS. On the other side, even Christians say the Jews killed him AS, but he resurrected after three days and become a god.
We know from the teachings of Holy Quran that most unacceptable thing to Allah SWT is that someone to declare share in His SWT divinity.
How could this be planning of Allah SWT, the Best of the Planners?
What did Jesus do then for another 95 years on earth according to Mirza? This is another point I will bring later on. In the light of the Holy Quran there was a big problem for Mirza, he has given a weird explanation of it in his book to cover his tracks. I will display that evidence later when I explore this point.
Allah SWT could have easily informed Isa As the scheming of the Jews, like he did to Prophet Muhammad SAW. He could have ordered him AS to migrate to some safer places, before his AS arrest. Exactly like he informed him SAW of Kuffar’s plans and ordered Prophet Muhammad SAW to migrate.
If the only purpose of Allah SWT was to inform Jesus As that HE SWT would “cause him As to die” “a natural death”. Then surely, that would have been a better solution this way, the schemes of the Jews would have failed. They wouldn’t have found Jesus and he AS would have never been crucified for Jews to boost that they killed Isa AS.
It is obvious, Allah SWT planned differently; there was no point of pretence of death, when the opponents were able to achieve the purpose. This is the point of view all over the world that Jesus died on the cross. The difference is Jews say they killed him As. Christians say he As was killed by the Jews but he resurrected after three days, because he As was divine.
Except off course Muslims who rightly say, that he As was never put on the cross but Allah SWT has exalted him AS to Himself. This is the consensus opinion of the Muslims. Only difference is in the applications of how Allah SWT exalted him SA to Himself.
That’s lead to another lie of Mirza vis-à-vis use of word “Wama Salabhu” in the Holy Quran. I will come to it. Inshallah
I am in the process of writings some articles, these points would be covered in those articles. There is no point of me producing Quranic evidence in this debate, when Mr. Popat does not provide any evidence from the Holy Quran; instead he is reduced to produce heresies after heresies against Holy Quran, Word of Allah SWT, in the foot step of Mirza, the liar of Qadian.
Mr. Popat is only capable to produce cut and paste job from the books and articles of his cult, intelligent discussions and debates using his own brain, and producing evidence from the holy Quran is beyond his capabilities. He had this discussion and produced plenty of quotes from his cult’s material, before I arrived on this forum and started to discuss it on this thread. But what happened now? He doesn’t find answers to my reasons in his pocket books, or in the writings of Mirza his Ka-Lips and cultists.
I always laughed, when these Qadianis write, I am coping stuff from somewhere, many allegations made on this forum too, very predictably.
I can assure all my Muslim Brothers and Sisters, my material is completely fresh, nobody has written articles like me against Mirza. There may be some quotations similar in other books or articles, but then we all have to quote from the books of Mirza to expose him. But my presentations, proofs and reasoning are completely different from others.
First I will write an article to expose Mirza and his sons what they have said about us Muslims; to highlight the fact that they consider us all Kaffirs. These hypocrites run to the moderators on false pretences of their religious figures. They consider Mirza the liar of Qadian, as the “true Muslim” and a Prophet, and all of us not believing in his lies as Kaffirs.
Each and every one of you should ask yourself, are these Qadianis truthful, when they say their religious personalities? Can they tell us what religion do they follow?
Their answer would be Islam, and that they are the true Muslims. You my brothers and sisters should ask yourself one simple question. Is Mirza the liar of Qadian, a religious personality of Islam?
I know the answer to this question, he is a heretic and a liar who has attributed white lies to Allah SWT all his life; he was not a believer. I challenge any Qadiani to have a debate with me anywhere anytime on this topic.
One of them wanted to arrange a debate with me in London, I say to them all, I am available, but I want the best of your Murabis Mullahs to come and debate with me, including Mirza Masroor. I will arrange live TV coverage and ask my Muslims brothers and sisters assistance to arrange for a large hall, with TV cameras made available from Pakistani Channels. Masroor, you should prove it to the world your knowledge of Islam and Quran, after all you paddle this lie that you were selected by Allah SWT (nauzobillah). My little right toe knows more Islam then you. I challenge you to come out and face me on any topic of your choice from the writings of Mirza. I must warn you, I do not debate on the set arguments you have practiced over the years. I will hit you so hard from different angles from the Holy Quran that you will forget your concoctions and lies in five minutes; this is a guarantee from me. Try you must fail you always.
You should also knows this fact, I have researched extensively and I know the origins of the ideas of Mirza, I know the sources from where he copied his ideas, his plagiarism, truth about his boosting of Arabic Language, I can provide proofs after proofs of his illiteracy and lies, his mistakes, his kuffar and shirk from his writings.
A liar who has even copied from the Arabic books written for children, used Lisan to select words, merge those words with sentences he plagiarized from different sources to declare this concoctions as Word from Allah SWT, is a heretic. On top of it, this liar claimed that he was taught Arabic by Allah SWT directly. One follower has displayed those proofs on another thread on this forum.
This liar has the audacity, to challenge people to write Arabic like him. To imitate and display the exact challenge contained in the Holy Quran. Only a person who is a non-believer on Allah SWT could do such deeds, who have absolutely no fear of Allah SWT in his heart. Mirza didn’t have any fear of Allah SWT in his heart, because he didn’t believe.
Allah SWT has decreed in the holy Quran. When light comes the darkness fails, because by nature falsehood is bound to perish. That light was brought to this world by our Prophet SAW and that truth is contained in the Holy Quran, the Uncreated Word of Allah SWT.
I can prove Mirza’s lies, in different ways, stop me if you can. May curse of Allah SWT be on all who associate white lies to the Holy Quran, the Word of Allah SWT. Ameen.
The first part of this quotation is hilarious once again. Quran clears Isa AS from the allegations, but so did the New Testament; which also maintained that he was born of a Virgin Mary. The New Testament we all know was in existence before the revelations of the Holy Quran. That’s not the main purpose of the Holy Quran. The New Testament brought this false notion of his As divinity, due to his As birth without father; he As was born with the command of Allah SWT “Be” or “Kun”. Quran actually clarify and dispels this misconception of the Christians.
Before i write something, I would like to say up front that my intentions are pure and that i will change my belief of Hazrat Isa (AS)'s death once you can prove it to me. Your way of debating isnt sounding as if you want me to believe what you're saying, but still, just to find the truth, i am ignoring where you are disrespecting Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS).
I am not going to be writing lengthy paragraphs unlike you which are full of hatred. Quran is the only book which has been unchanged ever since its been revealed, and it will remain unchanged until the day of judgement. Quran also is a word of Allah, unlike new testament, which christians later added/subtracted stuff based on their likings. Yes, Injeel was revealed to Isa (AS), but it is not to be found anywhere now. This is why Quran comes in, to prove right from wrong. Even from new testament. Whatever was added later on to that, is been rejected by Quran, whatever stayed untouched in new testament, Quran testifies it as the truth as well.
Can’t you see Mr. Popat, I am having this debate with you on your chosen meaning “cause you to die” 3:55 from the translation of Asad? There is a whole lot difference between “cause you to die” and “cause you to die a natural death”, which is fabrication of Mirza, based on him plagarising idea of some one. I will provide proofs of it.
Asad translations and his explanations, make perfect sense, while Mirza’s explanations are full of lies and deceit. That’s what I am exploring. So be patient. I will come to those “remarkable lies” oh I forgot you call them “remarkable truth” Mirza paddled.
sir, the thing is, no matter how much I try convincing you from quran, your mind has already been set up in a way that it will reject the truth,no matter what. Such is your way of debating.
Theres a difference in cause you to die and cause you to die a natural death? got to be kidding me man. Your whole emphasis is in one verse which is not presenting a clear picture of His (AS)'s ascension to skies. 3:55 says 'cause you to die" , then in another verse it says " they killed him not, nor did they crucify Him, but it was made to appear to them as one crucified" now, take both of these verses, and now debate with me.
How do Allah cause one to die? if jews/romans didnt not crucify him (as stated in another verse ) , then how else he(as) died? ( as stated in verse 3:55) ?
Lets put it this way.. for the sake of argument, i will not bring the other verse,but will only concentrate on... " I will cause thee to die.. " , you need to tell me the way how Allah causes His prophets to die?
Even if 'cause you to die' and 'cause you to die a natural death' , then my friend in either case, you are admitting that He (AS) died. If NOT by natural death, then by other means.. ( even though theres another verse saying that "they killed him not nor did they crucify him " but im not concerned with that at the moment).
Natural death or NOT a natural death, both scenarios shows His death.
As we can see, you despite making claims to discuss it from the Holy Quran** you are unable to answer one simple question from the Holy Quran** in support of Mirza and your Jamat.
Mr. Popat you didn’t give me the clarifications I asked in my last post, therefore, I take it you wanted to mean that this conversation happened after the crucifixion; in that case you are going against Mirza. That’s a good start.
That might be weak knowledge of ours in your opinion, and your job is to tell us the truth. I have asked you to provide me with your knowledge of the conversation that too place? at what particular time? I said i do not know, and neither did i think it was relevant. However, if you think it is relevant, it is your farz to guide someone who is asking for guidance. Allah will ask you why you did not tell the person the truth, when you knew it? So please tell me when the conversation took place? as this very question was the question you kept asking me and in every reply of mine i asked you to tell me what you think. Everytime you ignored my question.
He is basically either is accusing Allah SWT of lies (nauzobillah). He is saying that in the Quran Allah SWT brought this conversation as an after event because the Jews said they killed Isa As and the Christians said he As has ascended to the Heaven after the resurrection. Or he wanted to say that Allah SWT had this conversation after the crucifixion with Isa As, in other words, probably he meant either in Palestine or in Kashmir. I asked him to clarify but he refused.
I said the conversation took place when he was alive. This make sense because Injeel was completed before He died. If it had taken place after, then injeel would have not been completed. This is exactly what Quran says too. Now, whererever he died, is again irrelevant here. He (AS) died. Period.
All else that you said is not what we are talking about here. Your job is to tell me how 'cause you to die' and 'cause you to die a natural death' is not one and the same. Did Allah indirectly mean that He will cause him to die (by the hands of Jews )? ( by earthquake )?? this will then go against the verse which says " they killed him not nor did they crucify him ".
Death is by default. Prove from Quran He (AS) ascended to heavens. Lets see if you can prove that. IF not , then ur lengthy paragraphs is just a waste of your time , and nothing else. I am now only interested in your replies where you talk about His (AS)'s ascension to heavens.
[QUOTE]
Yes, Injeel was revealed to Isa (AS), but it is not to be found anywhere now. This is why Quran comes in, to prove right from wrong. Even from new testament. Whatever was added later on to that, is been rejected by Quran, whatever stayed untouched in new testament, Quran testifies it as the truth as well.
[/QUOTE]
*I am flabbergasted from your reasoning. I have already told you before, Injeel is irrelevant, it wouldn’t have contained death of ISA AS, because if he was dead, who would have received the revelations? But unfortunately you do not get this point. *
[QUOTE]
sir, the thing is, no matter how much I try convincing you from Quran, your mind has already been set up in a way that it will reject the truth,no matter what.
[/QUOTE]
Once again, I have already answered this. My mind is not set up on anything, nor am I stating my point of view, understanding or belief. To me it is very simple.
1- If ISA AS has died, according to the Holy Quran, then fine, so be it. No one can come in his As place; there is absolutely no concept of Re-incarnation in the Holy Quran. Mirza can not be second coming of ISA AS, nobody can be.
2- IF ISA AS was taken alive to the heavens by the Angels on the Commands of Allah SWT, then only he can come back. Mirza or any other impostor is still out, no room for them.
Tell me what part of my arguments you do not understand? For us Muslims this is not as a big issue as you made it out.
You have massive problems yourself, following Mirza’s borrowed meanings it is you who has made up your mind. You can not prove it in millions years from the Holy Quran, no matter how much you try. Because Mirza lied all his life, I have proofs from where he had his ideas, he was no recipient of revelations, no one could after Prophet SAW; he just made up stories.
[QUOTE]
Theres a difference in cause you to die and cause you to die a natural death? got to be kidding me man. Your whole emphasis is in one verse which is not presenting a clear picture of His (AS)'s ascension to skies. 3:55 says 'cause you to die" , then in another verse it says " they killed him not, nor did they crucify Him, but it was made to appear to them as one crucified" now, take both of these verses, and now debate with me.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and what is your point? Didn’t you realize we have not come to any other verse yet?
The second verse you mentioned have even greater problems for you to overcome, so wait patiently. You are already at sea, no arguments I have seen coming from you at all.
[QUOTE]
How do Allah cause one to die? if jews/romans didnt not crucify him (as stated in another verse ) , then how else he(as) died? ( as stated in verse 3:55) ?
[/QUOTE]
Ha Ha Ha, this is funny indeed. It is you who says Allah SWT gave him As the news that he will die natural death. The word which nowhere to be found in the verse. You should tell us why it was necessary for Allah SWT to say he As would die natural death? **Doesn’t everyone have to die? Doesn’t Allah SWT is responsible of everyone’s death, no matter how it happens? **
Do you have any other creator in mind? Do you think Isa As didn’t know one day he As would die one day, naturally, like any other human being? *Or you think he had this weird idea that he As would not die at all? *
You also can not provide one example from the Holy Quran that Allah SWT decreed the same to any prophet who suffered persecutions and threat of death. Some actually were killed, according to the Quran. So why is this exception?
I have given you example of Prophet Muhammad SAW from the Holy Quran; how Allah SWT informed him SAW of Kuffar’s plans and guarded him SAW from the harm, by Angels protecting him SAW.
You failed to give the answer, why Allah SWT did not do exactly the same for ISA AS? Why he As has to be hang on the cross according to Mirza, fulfilling the plans of the Jews?
Wasn’t killing Jesus AS on the cross plan of Jews?** So what Planning did Allah SWT do as stated in the Holy Quran? Doesn’t let him AS hang on the cross or stick, not fulfilling the purpose of the Jews? **
They still boost don’t they? Christians also boost that he AS was divine and he died and resurrected after 3 days. So whose purpose was served if Jesus AS was put on the cross?
That’s why I keep saying; those Muslims, who think ISA AS has died according to the holy Quran, do not think he was hanged on the cross. Those Muslims, who think he was taken to the heavens alive, also believe that he As was never put on the cross.
*So consensus of Muslims opinion is that he As was never put on the cross, he As either was given the death by Allah SWT before the crucifixion and taken to the heavens or he *
*As was taken to the heavens alive. But in either case he As was taken by the angels before the crucifixion from this earth, dead or alive. *
*That’s why the timing when this conversation took place is important, which your Mirza knew too. He has admitted it happened before the crucifixion. That’s why he has to go with the swoon theory. *
What Mirza said is based on him plagiarizing someone’s ideas, which will be revealed in due course.
[QUOTE]
Another funny thing you are saying is how he AS died as stated in Verse 3:55. Man you can not even hold your own argument. Didn’t you say that he As was told in advance that he will die a natural death in 3:55?
[/QUOTE]
Now you are saying 3:55 states ISA As died. What a result.
[QUOTE]
you need to tell me the way how Allah causes His prophets to die?
[/QUOTE] Ha Ha Ha, who said, HE SWT gave this news to ISA As to die natural death? How else majority of the Prophets died except few who were killed? This is the problem you are facing aren’t you to prove from the Quran that Allah SWT said this to any other Prophet who was under persecution?
[QUOTE]
All else that you said is not what we are talking about here. Your job is to tell me how 'cause you to die' and 'cause you to die a natural death' is not one and the same. Did Allah indirectly mean that He will cause him to die (by the hands of Jews)? ( by earthquake )?? this will then go against the verse which says " they killed him not nor did they crucify him ".
[/QUOTE] Ha Ha Ha, so you don’t know it? Why did you open this thread then? This is the exact question you should answer; you are the one who is adding the concoctions natural death, not me.
To me every one dies a natural death, unless he is killed either by some one or by accident. Allah SWT never mentioned this to any Prophet in the Holy Quran, but He SWT made an exception in the case of Isa AS, why?
1- We know according to the Quran some Prophets were killed by their people, they didn’t get these assurances.
2- We also know Allah SWT helped many Prophets for example Moses As, against Pharaoh and his people, but he As was not told when he was in the court of the Pharaoh, facing his magicians, that Allah SWT would give him As a natural death. Then he was chased by Pharaoh with his army across the sea, when Allah SWT helped him by extraordinary measures to rip the sea open for his AS safe passage, drowning Pharaoh with his army, but yet again Moses As was not given this assurance “cause you to die a natural death”. Was his As trouble and persecution he As faced was less then Isa As? Off course not, then why he As was not given the news of “I will cause you to die a natural death” by Allah SWT?
3- We Know the story of Prophet Noah As from Holy Quran, Allah SWT guided him to build the boat to save him As and his followers, while drowning other inhabitants of the area with flood, but he As was not given the news “ I will cause you to die a natural death” by Allah SWT. Why not?
4- We also know from the Holy Quran that Allah SWT decreed He SWT is the best of the Planners, in case of Prophet Muhammad SAW, He SWT informed him SAW through the Angels, and protected him through Angels. Why He SWT didn’t do the same for ISA As? Unless off course, Allah SWT planned differently, something, which He SWT has never done it for any other Prophets according to the evidence in the Holy Quran. Why he SAW was not given the news “I will cause you to die a natural death” by Allah SWT?
5- He SAW took part in many Ghazva’s against the enemies of Islam when there was a real chance of him SAW being Martyr by the enemies. Allah SWT even decreed in the Holy Quran that if he SAW to be killed or died, would the Sahabas turn their backs on Islam? Therefore, possibility and danger of him SAW being killed by the enemies was real and present according to the Holy Quran, but Allah SWT never ever gave this news “I will cause you to die a natural death” to Prophet SAW. Why there is an exception in the case of Prophet ISA As?
6- The only possibility is that He SWT informed ISA AS that He SWT will gather him and ascend him As to Himself (SWT). All Muslims agree on it, with minority holding the views, that he As was given death by Allah SWT before the crucifixion and then he As was taken to the heavens. While Majority maintains that he was taken alive to the heavens by the Angels, on the Decree of Allah SWT.
7- Unless, Allah SWT had different plans for him AS, as an extraordinary step, to cause him As to die suddenly and purposefully according to some, or ascended to heavens alive by majority of Muslims. The evidence in the Quran is overwhelming that something extraordinary happened. This didn’t happen to any other Prophets of Allah SWT. Allah SWT has mentioned it in the Holy Quran what plans He SWT had for Jesus As, we will come to that in due course, Inshallah.
8- The history tells us there had never been any news of Jesus As alive after that period.
9- There are stories, him migrating from India to Japan to Europe, but we are not discussing stories and feeble tales here, we are discussing Quranic evidence here.
Mr. Popat, the problems for you are immense indeed, you show us from the Holy Quran proofs of your “Cause you to die the natural death” evidence. I am giving the evidence from the Quran, that this has never happened to any other Prophet of Allah SWT, even though they were all persecuted by their people, to various degrees.
[QUOTE]
Death is by default. Prove from Quran He (AS) ascended to heavens. Let’s see if you can prove that. IF not , then ur lengthy paragraphs is just a waste of your time , and nothing else. I am now only interested in your replies where you talk about His (AS)'s ascension to heavens.
[/QUOTE]
This is called hara kari in plain language.
1- Death is by default, then why Allah SWT mentioned that in the Holy Quran according to you “natural death”? Wouldn’t he As have meet the same natural end, which you say is by default?
2- Me Proving it? Are you having night mares? Who opened this thread to prove it from the Holy Quran that Isa As died a natural death in Kashmir at the age of 120/125? Remember you wrote in your first post, we Muslims to understand claims of Mirza. His claim is Isa As death at the age of 120/125 in Kashmir. You can not get away from it.
3- Where did I say, I will prove his ascension to the heavens? You surely are having nightmares. I gave you three meanings, and we are debating on your chosen meanings “Cause you to die”. Therefore, burden of proof lay squarely on your shoulders. Don’t bug your own responsibility.
4- Learn the first principle of the debate, the person, who makes a statement prove his case. It is your thread, your statement, I want you to prove your case from the Holy Quran, that Isa As died a natural death in Kashmir at the age of 120/125. You want all of us to understand claims of Mirza? Don’t you?
5- My job is to prove that nothing like this can be proven from the Holy Quran. So get on with your job to prove your case. Until now you have not answered one question from the Holy Quran. Not one proof, not one single precedence, not an iota of evidence to support your own claims.
Only fools ask others to provide proofs of their own failings. Prove your case first. But you and I both know you can not.
Good luck, I can keep you on this topic for months if I so wish, you wouldn’t be able to answer one question from the Holy Quran.** So much so for your lofty claims to prove it to the Muslims. My job is to prove that you can not make your case from the holy Quran. You should understand this it is you who had made a claim, in the light of the writings of Mirza; onus is on you to prove it from the Holy Quran. **
My Muslim Brothers and Sisters, while Mr. Popat finds a way to prove it to us from the Holy Quran, that 3:55 decreed ISA AS died a natural death in Kashmir at the age of 120/125, for us to understand claims of Mirza. We have to move on. I will ask Mr. Popat further questions based on Surah Al-Imran. He has hell of a job first to argue against the evidence verses ins Surah Al-Imran provides against the heresy of Mirza; before we can consider verses from other Surah’s of the Quran for the death or alive ascension of ISA AS.
I therefore, forward this debate by asking further questions from Mr. Popat; I hope he will give honest and straight answers rather then gibberish he has produced so far. After all, he said he can prove it from the Holy Quran, but alas, until now he has produced nothing from the Holy Quran to support himself.
Mr. Popat,
1- Do you think Prophet Muhammad SAW understood the meanings of 3:55 or not?
2- Did he SAW had the full knowledge of the matter concerning the death of Prophet Isa As, or not?
I will appreciate your answers to both these questions. On receiving the answers I will precede further Inshallah.
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
My dear Muslim Brothers and Sisters why dont you watch the following video from Ghamidi on the topic whilsts Crank and Popat work on finding their answers:
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
My dear Muslim Brother and Sisters lets see what other Ulema have to say on the topic:
Perhaps Allama Iqbal also need to be convinced.
Meenar-i-Dil pe Apnay Khuda Kaa Nuzool Deikh
Ab Intizar-i-Mahdi-o-Eisa Bhee ChorhThey
i.e., See the descent of God on the minaret of your heart; now even discard the waiting for Mahdi and Eisa. (Dr. Allama Iqbal)
Perhaps this would help:
As far as I have understood the belief of Jamaat Ahmadiyya their view that Jesus (peace be on him) died like any other mortal and that the Second Coming of Messiah means a new person in his image and spirit will be born, appears to be reasonable and carries merit.”
(Allama lqbal’s reply to Pandit Jawarlal Nehru. Printed at Brandreth Road Lahore on Feb. 17th 1936, page 22).
Re: Isa (AS) dead or alive. In the light of Quran and Hadith.
Or Sir Sayyed Ahmad Khan:
“As the Ulama of Islam had followed the Christians, in accepting that Jesus had gone up to heaven alive, before looking at the Quran, so they have tried to interpret some of the words in these verses to accord with their unsound belief.”
SIR SYED AHMED KHAN - Tafsir, vol. ii, p. 48)
I am sure you are blind. No wonder you have failed to read the start of my last post. Also you probably do not have the mental capacity to understand that the debate is on death of Isa As according to the Holy Quran.
It may have also escape attention of your wasted brain, that I have already said, minority of Muslims believe that Isa As was given death by Allah SWT before Angels exalted him to the heavens before crucifixion. In either case, no good for Mirza.
But problem for you is no Muslim claimed or believed Isa As has died a natural death in Kashmir at the age of 120/125.
Did you still get it?
As for Ghamdi, would you believe and accept everything he says? Let’s test your hypocrisy, answer me.
As for SSAK, would you believe his version of death of Isa AS? Would you accept that he before Mirza mentioned this idea of death of ISA AS?
Have you ever read the books of Mirza, Properly?
I suggest you shouldn’t bring people like Ghamdi and SSAK in to discussion, because it will destroy your case, but if you are foolish enough, then I surely would oblige you. What say you?
“As the Ulama of Islam had followed the Christians, in accepting that Jesus had gone up to heaven alive, before looking at the Quran, so they have tried to interpret some of the words in these verses to accord with their unsound belief.”
SIR SYED AHMED KHAN - Tafsir, vol. ii, p. 48)
Dear D-tox..ed and Mr. Popat, Mr. crankthatskunk has already tried to secure his position by saying that muslims had both beliefs i.e., Jesus is alive or he is dead. So either way, he will say 'I am good'
I think he is more interested in hazart jesus' AS life post crucifixion. If you could shed some light in this aspect, that would be quite good in moving this discussion forward.
I am sure you are blind. No wonder you have failed to read the start of my last post. Also you probably do not have the mental capacity to understand that the debate is on death of Isa As according to the Holy Quran.
It may have also escape attention of your wasted brain, that I have already said, minority of Muslims believe that Isa As was given death by Allah SWT before Angels exalted him to the heavens before crucifixion. In either case, no good for Mirza.
But problem for you is no Muslim claimed or believed Isa As has died a natural death in Kashmir at the age of 120/125.
Did you still get it?
As for Ghamdi, would you believe and accept everything he says? Let’s test your hypocrisy, answer me.
As for SSAK, would you believe his version of death of Isa AS? Would you accept that he before Mirza mentioned this idea of death of ISA AS?
Have you ever read the books of Mirza, Properly?
I suggest you shouldn’t bring people like Ghamdi and SSAK in to discussion, because it will destroy your case, but if you are foolish enough, then I surely would oblige you. What say you?
At least you believe the people who are called MUSLIMS also believe in death of Esa (A.S)....hence as per same belief if they are able to call them selves Muslims then as per same belief Ahmadi should also be given rights to call them selves Muslims.
For rest of your personal remarks it is very evident that you have no sense of debate and infact you lack in even least amount respect. And perhaps thats why no is interested in listening to your rubbish. (Rubbish = disrespectful remarks against Ahmadies and their leaders)
It may have also escape attention of your wasted brain, that I have already said, minority of Muslims believe that Isa As was given death by Allah SWT before Angels exalted him to the heavens before crucifixion. In either case, no good for Mirza.
But problem for you is no Muslim claimed or believed Isa As has died a natural death in Kashmir at the age of 120/125.
Did you still get it?
Ab aaya oonth pahaar ke neeche..
You said minority of muslims believe that He (AS) was given death by Allah even before His crucifixion? Theres no room for discussion in the issue that Prophet Isa (AS) was alive before and during His crucifixion. He (AS) was not given death before his crucifixion. Ahmadis on other hand believe that He (AS) "survived" crucifixion, and their was not a similar looking person put on cross on behalf of Jesus AS from Allah.
Now, on other hand you say no muslim claimed or believe Isa AS has died a natural death? well, the Muslims who believe His death, do not believe in His 'natural' death? is that what you're trying to say? Are you saying those Muslims believe He (AS) was killed by the hands of Jews ? (because thats the only reason i can think of if not a 'natural' death).. care to explain what those other "muslims" believe regarding Isa (AS) death is? was it not "natural"? how did He die according to them?
