Is this true?

Re: Is this true?

I appreciated you taking the time to post those references, but they have not 'corrected' my view because I have a hard time believing that the dead can help the living. Help should be sought from Allah alone, and in matters pertaining support, then support can be sought from the living (asking someone to make duaa, borrowing from someone else when in need, etc.).

And I do not believe I was generalizing, I was stating an observation. If I perceive it that way, then your contribution has played a factor in creating that perception, or I wouldn't have worded what I said in that fashion. And of course I realize that you are much more learned than I am, and I pray that Allah increases me in knowledge to the benefit of others.

Re: Is this true?

A little practice in reading comprehension would help your case! :p

Re: Is this true?

Those references should have corrected you somewhat, I hope the reason why they did not correct you is not stubborn-ness. You are obviously displaying influence from a well known recent movement

Lets have a look at some subjects which you should have been corrected on:

On the topic of where help should be sought from - It should be sought from Allah Ta'ala, Allah Subhanahu is the Provider of Help. We can attain this help in one of the two permissible ways -1. Directly asking Allah Ta'ala, and 2. asking through an intermediary [living or passed on]
1. Now if you look back, you are saying help should be sought directly from Allah Ta'ala, and the Sahaba are turning to Hair Mubaraks, and Garment Sharifs. Clear difference there. A difference which should correct you on this point, after reflection

  1. A man came to RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam for the cure of his sight. The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam gave him a way for him to gain this help from Allah Ta'ala, and it included taking help from The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam [from afar I might add]. This should correct you

  2. You will have been influenced to the notion that dua is worship, and that this means all calling is worship. The ayat of The Quran should have corrected you

Also at the middle of all your views on these subjects is death. Your view of death is too simplistic. It seems this is playing the pivotal role in your understanding. This needs further discussion, do not assume this, what seems like a, pillar of your belief is on firm ground till you have investigated. Remember our views should not merely be influenced by what seems the zahiri reality but we take input from islam for our beliefs. With the input of Islam your views on death will be less simplistic.

Re: Is this true?

Once again you demonstrate your complete lack of ability to differentiate between subjects. Tabarruk and Istiagathaa are two completely different things. Once again first correcting your ignorance before misguiding others would be recommended.

[QUOTE]
2. A man came to RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam for the cure of his sight. The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam gave him a way for him to gain this help from Allah Ta'ala, and it included taking help from The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam [from afar I might add]. This should correct you
[/QUOTE]

Your inability to read Arabic, combined with your attitude with putting words in other peoples mouths as you did with me once again shines here. You once again show complete lack of knowledge when it comes to differentiating between Tawassul and Istigataatha. Thank God the people I have talked to in chat say you are not to be taken seriously.

[QUOTE]

  1. You will have been influenced to the notion that dua is worship, and that this means all calling is worship. The ayat of The Quran should have corrected you [/QUOTE]

Had you known the grammatical positioning of the words in the Ayah of Surah Al-Fatiha you would have known how baseless your, and that unauthentic websites you use, stance is. Once again your inability to understand Balaagha shows you are just regurgitating what your sect has taught you.

[QUOTE]
Also at the middle of all your views on these subjects is death. Your view of death is too simplistic. It seems this is playing the pivotal role in your understanding. This needs further discussion, do not assume this, what seems like a, pillar of your belief is on firm ground till you have investigated. Remember our views should not merely be influenced by what seems the zahiri reality but we take input from islam for our beliefs. With the input of Islam your views on death will be less simplistic.
[/QUOTE]

View of death in Islam is simple. You die and end up in a grave 6 feet below the ground. Everyone leaves you. You hear their footsteps go away. You are left with your deeds. You can't help yourself anymore let alone anyone else.

I suggest you correct your Aqeedah and stop misguiding people.

And the ibn arabi you and your salafiaqeedah website love! Wonder where this guys istigathaa of his skehih took him!!

The incident between Ibn Hajar and Ibn 'Arabi's fan was reported by at least three students of Ibn Hajar in their books. One book is a biography of Ibn Hajar, one is in the **takfeer of Ibn 'Arabi and Ibn al-Faridh****, and one is in the history of Makka. All of three have described the same incident in slightly different words.

In the year 797 H, the ruler of Egypt was known as Zahir. There was a shaykh who was closely associated with Zahir. This shaykh threatened Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani that he will complain of him to Zahir that he (i.e. Ibn Hajar) criticized Ibn 'Arabi. Fearing this, Ibn Hajar proposed a mubahala with this shaykh to easily get rid of him, to which the shaykh accepted. "I asked him," says Ibn Hajar, "to say 'O Allah, if Ibn 'Arabi is on misguidance, curse me with Your curse.', which he said, and I said, 'O Allah, if Ibn 'Arabi is on guidance, curse me with Your curse." Then the two seperated.

Next month, during Ramadan, some soldier threw a party and invited the shaykh. Early in the night, the shaykh decided to leave them for some reason, and while he was on his way when lo! he felt something just passed over his legs, so he said to his companions, "Something soft just passed over my legs, look and see what it is." (i.e. his feet became paralyzed). And they saw but found nothing. The shaykh then became blind and could not see anything as well.

He died before the next morning.

"Thus," said Ibn Hajar, "I was relieved from the evil of this person, and became safe from the consequence of his deceiving."**

Re: Is this true?

Do stay quiet

You had your chance to talk and had nothing to say. The discussion has moved on. Tabarruk and istighatha are related subjects.

and Im not sitting here to correct you on a range of subjects which has alternated at a rate of knots. Take your meds

Teggy can speak for himself

Re: Is this true?

  1. Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) was a prophet, and prophets have miracles. Awliya Allah may have karamah during their lifetime. Sahaba (r.a.) went to seek out Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) because he was a Prophet, and prophets receive revelation, and do not do anything which contradicts commands of Allah, and thus are infallible. That guaratee is not reserved for others; though there are pious men and women in every ummah and Allah blesses their actions. Here's a hadith to the fact:

[quote]

Abu Hurairah narrated that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said,
"When a man dies, his good deeds come to an end except three: ongoing charity, beneficial knowledge, and righteous offspring who will pray for him." (Muslim)
[/quote]

  1. Again, refer to number 1.

  2. I seek refuge with Allah from any wrong influences. Quran says to fear Allah, worship Allah alone, obey the Messenger (pbuh) and Allah (s.w.t.), and do righteous deeds, seek forgiveness for wrongdoings, and other beneficial commands for us all. Quran does say to ask those who know if you don't know in terms of knowledge. Please help me understand which ayah of Quran sanctions going to the deceased and asking for Help.

My view on death is that once you die, your deeds come to an end except those that Rasool Allah (s.a.w) mentioned which carry on benefitting you after your death. It is true, my view may be simplistic, it is perhaps because Islam is a simple religion and the path to Allah is direct and straight forward without pitstops or the need to attend any mazaar as an article of faith to achieve success. May Allah guide me, and correct my incorrect understandings, surely I could use a lot more learning.

The simple fact of the matter from my limited understanding is that the best place to seek help is from Salah and patience, and we have been informed by Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) that supplication made during sujood may most likely be accepted. Can there be any better form of seeking than this, to be able to ask Allah directly? Again, that's just my understanding and surely there's room for improvement on a lot of what I feel I have come to learn. Duaa is a powerful thing, and the living can do duaa as evident when Rasool Allah (s.a.w) asked Umar (r.a.) to make duaa for him (s.a.w.) upon performing Umrah after hijrah.

I don't wish to keep going in circular debate because you have your understanding, and I have mine. May Allah guide us all, and give us the taufeeq to unite upon what is common rather than divide upon what is different.

Re: Is this true?

Perhaps an Istigathaa to Ahamd Raza may help your cause?

[QUOTE]
You had your chance to talk and had nothing to say. The discussion has moved on. Tabarruk and istighatha are related subjects.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah for a man of your comprehension I understand they might be :D

[QUOTE]
and Im not sitting here to correct you on a range of subjects which has alternated at a rate of knots. Take your meds
[/QUOTE]

I don't need Meds Asking Allah Alone cured me!!! I know you find that sooooo hard to digest ;)

[QUOTE]
Teggy can speak for himself
[/QUOTE]

What makes you think I am speaking for him? You exhibit Paranoia! You thought I started this thread to get back at you for calling me a hypocrite! lol....Boy you think so highly of yourself. I think we now know who needs the meds! Let me recommend Resperidone!!! :D :D :D

Re: Is this true?

ROFL that was so funny! Now to get to business and show how you do not understand the difference between Tawassul and Istigathaa and are confused and confusing others.

This is not Istigaatha but Tawassul. You are asking Allah directly but using the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) as a Waseela. Istigathaa would be if the words were “O Muhammad I ask you to.”

References

Who cares if it is authentic as it does not even pertain to Istigaatha but Tawassul. Perfect example of putting things in the wrong place.

Who denies that. If you raise your voice above the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) all your deeds go to waste. And we live in a time when the Brailleys show so much disrespect that they attribute false Hadith to him to make their point.

Yeah when he (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was in this world! Confused aren’t you and the writer you take from.

Read the RED Tawassul not Istigaatha!!! Boy I told you you need a basic lesson in Aqeedah terminology

Great the person yo copy pasted that from is even putting it under the heading of Tawassul as seen in red and you argue it for Istigaatha. See why I keep saying you cannot even diffrentiate between subjects?!

Who cares about the scanned copies! It is Tawassul not Istigathaa as outlined by the writer himself - who was not you for sure.

My God. A classical example of either deciet or complete ignorance. This asking for help is on the Day of Judgement when everyone will be raised ALIVE! God Lord!

As nonsensical as it gets. You run the Prophets for help because they have been RESEURECTED!

For starters seeking means toward Him has been understood by scholars as good deeds. You need basic training in Tafsir by the way. And even if you accept your logic this again is Waseela which would at max fall under Tawassul not Istigathaa. Oh dear…this is sounding like a tape recorder.

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Allah commands His believing slaves to fear Him (have taqwa). When this word is accompanied by mention of obedience, it means refraining from haraam things. After that Allaah says, “And seek the means of approach to Him”. Sufyaan al-Thawri said, narrating from Talhah, from ‘Ata’, from Ibn ‘Abbaas: i.e., drawing close to Him. This was also stated by Mujaahid, Abu Waa’il, al-Hasan, Qataadah, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Katheer, al-Saddi, Ibn Zayd and others. Qataadah said: i.e., draw close to Him by obeying Him and doing that which pleases Him, and Ibn Zayd recited

Classical example of a website, Brailley that is, using its own logic when it suits them and ignoring what the Mufassirs say. And if the Salafis do this they get attacked for deriving laws on their own! DOUBLE STANDARDS :smiley:

Distrubition of war booty which he conveintly omitted. The Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) would distribute war booty during his life! He (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) cannot distritubute after leaving this world!

And vroom goes on a tangent. Nothing to do with Istigaatha or Tawassul. Just add in words to make your so called “evidences” look bigger.

Wow the absolute desperation of the writer. Tabarruk confused with Istigaatha. Talk about bad references and unauthentic websites.

As usual. He has not idea of the differences betwwen Tabbarruk, Tawassul, and Istigaatha. By God. Talk about being confused.

More like shooting you in the head! Subki was Shaafi by the way!! Do you need help in differing between Shaafis and Hanafis as well like you need help in understanding what is Tawassul and Istigaathaa?

Re: Is this true?

This is not the reply I was expecting. Its nice to see you affirming the infallibility of the Prophets. There is no guarantee on a particular follower person whether living or dead, unless you believe. And Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala makes the important distinction for us, that is your friend/helper be a Muslim. However lets not open up other subjects, the point was that you should have been corrected. The Hadith you quoted talks about a persons deeds coming to an end, and is more relevant in esal e sawab discussions. If you want to say his possible actions/movements/abilities come to an end, you are welcome to do that later.

What I labelled as number 1 above, in order to correct you requires you to have previously been saying/agreeing to things like "…Help should be sought from Allah alone…" with the meaning that it is shirk to seek through an intermediary or it should never be done through an intermediary.

With shirk related subjects it does not matter who help is being sought from, it is either shirk or it is not.

Likewise some people say ‘‘fa inni Qarib’’ Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala is closer to you then your jugular vein, and they say this means that we should not seek help through creation

Please affirm that when a person is sick one of the ways of seeking cure is to find and locate a personal property, lets say a Garment Sharif, of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam and to seek cure thereby through it

Affirming this should bring us closer in our understanding (to some understandings we’ll both be Mushriks :))

Anas b. Malik (Allah be pleased wish him) reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to Mina; he went to the Jamra and threw pebbles at it, after which he went to his lodging in Mina, and sacrificed the animal. He then called for a barber and, turning his right side to him, let him shave him; after which he tiimed his left side. He then gave (these hair) to the people. (Book 007, Hadith 2991)

distributed them for benefit

Anas reported: I saw when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) got his hair cut by thebarber, his Companions came round him and they eagerly wanted that no hair should fall but in the hand of a person. (Book 030, Hadith 5750)

eagerly awaited benefit

**Narrated IsraiI: Uthman bin 'Abdullah bin Mauhab said, “My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama.” Isra’il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet. 'Uthman added, “If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama. I looked into the container (that held the hair of the Prophet) and saw a few red hairs in it,” (Bukhari)

**Sought cure

**
**Here is the cloak of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). and she brought out to me that cloak made of Persian CLOTH with a hem of brocade, and its sleeves bordered with brocade and said: This wall Allah’s Messenger’s cloak with 'A’isha until she died, and when she died. I got possession of it. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to wear that, and we washed it for the sick and sought CURE thereby. (Sahih Muslim)

****Sought cure

It should not be done for Awliya? I would find it easier to understand if you were to use words such as shirk and impermissible.

Again what you are being called to affirm here is Making dua, calling upon Allah, and calling upon RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam in the same dua. This should correct you, meaning it should be more like a grenade to your understanding that is visibly appreciated as such by your own self.

I need some sort of settlement on the evidences already presented. One of my claims is that those evidences should ‘‘correct you’’ somewhat already. I mean your opposition of my positions over a prolonged period of time should have some substance to it, should it not?

Your view on death is not the Islamic view as simple as it may be, and as simple as Islam is, and there is a need to attend a Blessed Garden Sharif that you MUST affirm, although I need time how to word this aspect correctly

Sought cure is seeking help, as shown above and it is not limited to Salah and Patience

Although not entirely relevant to our discussion right now please share the Hadith (of Umar RadiAllahu Anhu) you mentioned, it may be relevant later with regards to Awliya. Help of living and dead people is the same, a person making dua for you is a person making dua for you. A person given help is a person given help. That is why a Garment sharif can be washed over and over and still provide cure

This is not a circular debate, if you have noticed you have tried to make this discussion for a long time, so don’t feel I am keeping you here against your will. I am not, its your own effort. I do not actually mind to know what your understanding is, and see what we have here as opposed to my own understanding.

Re: Is this true?

[QUOTE]
With shirk related subjects it does not matter who help is being sought from,** it is either shirk or it is not.**

  1. Likewise some people say ''fa inni Qarib'' Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is closer to you then your jugular vein, and they say this means that we should not seek help through creation

  2. Please affirm that when a person is sick one of the ways of seeking cure is to find and locate a personal property of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam and to seek cure thereby through it

  3. Affirming this should bring us closer in our understanding (to some understandings we'll both be Mushriks :))
    [/QUOTE]

  4. The ignorance :D

  5. The inability to understand the difference between subjects or refusal to do so :)

  6. 'Astaghfirullah....being happy at being a Mushrik...May Allah guide us.

Re: Is this true?

Why don't you explain a little then, tell me how my statement was ignorance
This task is assigned to you, i await a response of substance

[QUOTE]
2. The inability to understand the difference between subjects or refusal to do so :)

[/QUOTE]

I told the other zeeshan, that only 1 sentence (x2) was istighatha out of my earlier post, but this zeeshan has made it his life mission to do ratta that it was not all about istighatha. of course it was not. thanks for the pointing out, einstein

[quote]
3. 'Astaghfirullah....being happy at being a Mushrik...May Allah guide us.
[/quote]

With some understandings that people have taken, a person Must fall into the Mushrik status that person has created just to be a Muslim.

With this short response and the subsequent rola I am expecting it may be that i am unable to reply to your earlier post, something I was looking forward to in good time

Re: Is this true?

They say do not seek help from the creation in respect to that which it is not capable of!

The sooner you learn this Muqayyad portion, the better you will be able to understand your opposition! ;)

Re: Is this true?

They do say that in other contexts, or at least I have heard from from them. But what i had stated is more accurate of their position. They say Allah is closer to you then your jugular vein so why go to Sheikh or indirectly to Allah Ta'ala, go directly

However it is worrying that you would almost/go to make belief on their behalf to defend them. the way i see it this shows a mindset knowingly willing to over reach Islam in favour of protecting certain unislamic movements. With this knowledge about you, I would urge you to find another hobby

Re: Is this true?

Well, the way the Ummah is right now we are going to keep fighting. So, it is a good hobby to defend those who get bashed. I mean I never liked the Brailleys and thought bad things about them. But after watching their Madni channel and listening to their point of view, at least now I don't go about labeling them Mushriks like some do!

Re: Is this true?

And while we are at understanding the opposition here is something which everyone should understand about the Hadith of the blind man which is quoted for Tawassul.
**
"وأما نحن فنرى أن هذا الحديث لا حجة لهم فيه على التوسل بالذات ، بل هو دليل آخر على النوع الثالث من أنواع التوسل المشروع ـ وهو التوسل بدعاء الرجل الصالح ـ لأن توسل الأعمى إنما كان بدعائه صلى الله عليه وسلم ؛ والأدلة على ما نقول من الحديث نفسه كثيرة ، وأهمها :

أولاً: أن الأعمى إنما جاء إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ليدعو له ، وذلك قوله : ( ادعُ الله أن يعافيني ) فهو توسل إلى الله تعالى بدعائه ، لأنه يعلم أن دعاءه صلى الله عليه وسلم أرجى للقبول عند الله بخلاف دعاء غيره ، ولو كان قصد الأعمى التوسل بذات النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أو جاهه أو حقه لما كان ثمة حاجة به إلى أن يأتي النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ، ويطلب منه الدعاء له ، بل كان يقعد في بيته ، ويدعو ربه بأن يقول مثلاً : ( اللهم إني أسألك بجاه نبيك ومنزلته عندك أن تشفيني، وتجعلني بصيراً). ولكنه لم يفعل .

ثانياً : أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وعده بالدعاء مع نصحه له ببيان ما هو الأفضل له ، وهو قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم : (إن شئت دعوتُ ، وإن شئت صبرت فهو خير لك).

ثالثاً : إصرار الأعمى على الدعاء وهو قوله : (فادع) فهذا يقتضي أن الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم دعا له ، لأنه صلى الله عليه وسلم خيرُ من وَفَى بما وعد ، وقد وعده بالدعاء له إن شاء كما سبق ، فلا بد أنه صلى الله عليه وسلم دعا له ، فثبت المراد ، وقد وجه النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم الأعمى بدافع من رحمته ، وبحرص منه أن يستجيب الله تعالى دعاءه فيه ، وجهه إلى النوع الثاني من التوسل المشروع ، وهو التوسل بالعمل الصالح ، ليجمع له الخير من أطرافه ، فأمره أن يتوضأ ويصلي ركعتين ثم يدعو لنفسه ، وهذه الأعمال طاعة لله سبحانه وتعالى يقدمها بين يدي دعاء النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم له ، وهي تدخل في قوله تعالى : (وَابْتَغُواْ إِلَيهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ ) كما سبق .

وعلى هذا ، فالحادثة كلها تدور حول الدعاء – كما هو ظاهر – وليس فيها ذكر شيء مما يزعمون .

رابعاً : أن في الدعاء الذي علمه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إياه أن يقول : ( اللهم فشفعه في ) وهذا يستحيل حمله على التوسل بذاته صلى الله عليه وسلم ، أو جاهه ، أو حقه ، إذ إن المعنى : اللهم اقبل شفاعته صلى الله عليه وسلم فيّ ، أي : اقبل دعاءه في أن ترد عليَّ بصري ، والشفاعة لغةً الدعاء ، قال في "لسان العرب" (8/184) : "الشفاعة كلام الشفيع للملك في حاجة يسألها لغيره ، والشافع الطالب لغيره ، يتشفع به إلى المطلوب ، يقال تشفعت بفلان إلى فلان ، فشفعني فيه" انتهى .

فثبت بهذا الوجه أيضاً أن توسل الأعمى إنما كان بدعائه صلى الله عليه وسلم لا بذاته .

خامساً : أن مما علم النبيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم الأعمى أن يقوله : ( وشفعني فيه ) أي : اقبل شفاعتي ، أي دعائي في أن تقبل شفاعته صلى الله عليه وسلم ، أي دعاءه في أن ترد علي بصري . هذا المعنى الذي لا يمكن أن يفهم من هذه الجملة سواه .

ولهذا ترى المخالفين يتجاهلونها ، ولا يتعرضون لها من قريب أو من بعيد ، لأنها تنسف بنيانهم من القواعد ، وتجتثه من الجذور .

سادساً : إن هذا الحديث ذكره العلماء في معجزات النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ودعائه المستجاب ، وما أظهره الله ببركة دعائه من الخوارق والإبراء من العاهات ، فإنه بدعائه صلى الله عليه وسلم لهذا الأعمى أعاد الله عليه بصره ، ولذلك رواه المصنفون في "دلائل النبوة" كالبيهقي وغيره ، فهذا يدل على أن السر في شفاء الأعمى إنما هو دعاء النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم .

فلو كان السر في شفاء الأعمى أنه توسل بجاه النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وقدره وحقه ، كما يفهم عامة المتأخرين ، لكان من المفروض أن يحصل هذا الشفاء لغيره من العميان الذين يتوسلون بجاهه صلى الله عليه وسلم ، بل ويضمون إليه أحياناً جاه جميع الأنبياء المرسلين ، وكل الأولياء والشهداء والصالحين ، وجاه كل من له جاه عند الله من الملائكة ، والإنس والجن أجمعين ! ولم نعلم ولا نظن أحداً قد علم حصول مثل هذا خلال القرون الطويلة بعد وفاته صلى الله عليه وسلم إلى اليوم .

وبهذا التوضيح يتبين أن قول الأعمى في دعائه : (اللهم إني أسألك ، وأتوسل إليك بنبيك محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم) إنما المراد به : أتوسل إليك بدعاء نبيك ، أي على حذف المضاف ، وهذا أمر معروف في اللغة ، كقوله تعالى : (وَاسْأَلِ الْقَرْيَةَ الَّتِي كُنَّا فِيهَا وَالْعِيْرَ الَّتِي أَقْبَلْنَا فِيهَا وَإِنَّا لَصَادِقُونَ) يوسف/82 ، أي : أهل القرية وأصحاب العير .

على أنني أقول : لو صح أن الأعمى إنما توسل بذاته صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فيكون حكماً خاصاً به صلى الله عليه وسلم ، لا يشاركه فيه غيره من الأنبياء والصالحين ، وإلحاقهم به مما لا يقبله النظر الصحيح ، لأنه صلى الله عليه وسلم سيدهم وأفضلهم جميعاً ، فيمكن أن يكون هذا مما خصه الله به عليهم ككثير مما صح به الخبر ، وباب الخصوصيات لا تدخل فيه القياسات ، فمن رأى أن توسل الأعمى كان بذاته لله ، فعليه أن يقف عنده ، ولا يزيد عليه كما نقل عن الإمام أحمد والشيخ العز بن عبد السلام رحمهما الله تعالى . هذا هو الذي يقتضيه البحث العلمي مع الإنصاف ، والله الموفق للصواب " انتهى باختصار من "التوسل" ( ص 75 وما بعدها) .
**
Translation of above

 As for us, we believe that this hadeeth **does not constitute      evidence** for them to support seeking to draw closer to Allah (tawassul) by      virtue of the Prophet’s person; rather it constitutes further evidence for      the third type of lawful tawassul – which is tawassul **through the du‘aa’      (supplication) of a righteous man** – because the tawassul of the blind man      was only by means of the du‘aa’ of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah      be upon him) (and not by virtue of his person). The evidence for what we say      is to be found in the hadeeth itself, in abundance. The most important      points are as follows: 


      **First**


      The blind man only came to the Prophet (blessings and peace      of Allah be upon him) to ask him to pray for him; that was when he said:      Pray to Allah to heal me. This is seeking to draw closer to Allah (tawassul)      by virtue of his du‘aa’, because he knew that the du‘aa’ of the Prophet      (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was more likely to be accepted by      Allah, unlike the du‘aa’ of anyone else. If the blind man’s intention was to      draw close to Allah by virtue of the Prophet’s person or his status, there      would have been no need for him to come to the Prophet (blessings and peace      of Allah be upon him) and ask him to offer du‘aa’ for him; rather he could      have stayed at home and called upon his Lord by saying, for example: O      Allah, I ask You by virtue of Your Prophet and His status before You to heal      me and give me my sight. But he did not do that. 

Second

      The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)      promised to offer supplication (du‘aa’) for him whilst advising him of that      which would be better for him, which is when he said: “If you wish, I shall      pray for you; and if you wish, you can be patient and that will be better      for you.” 

Third

      The blind man insisted that he offer supplication for him, as      he said: Pray for me (now). This implies that the Messenger (blessings and      peace of Allah be upon him) did offer supplication for him, because he      (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was the best one in fulfilling      promises, and he had promised him that he would offer supplication for him      if he wanted, as stated above. So there is no doubt that he (blessings and      peace of Allah be upon him) offered supplication for him. Thus what the      blind man wanted was done. After that, the Prophet (blessings and peace of      Allah be upon him) turned towards the blind man out of compassion towards      him and out of keenness that Allah answer his supplications for this man. So      he turned to him and advised him of the second type of lawful tawassul,      which is tawassul by virtue of righteous deeds, so as to combine all kinds      of good and righteous deeds (to ensure that his need would be met). So he      instructed him to do wudoo’ and to pray two rak‘ahs, then to offer      supplication for himself. These are all acts of obedience towards Allah, may      He be glorified and exalted, that came before the supplication of the      Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) for him, and these are      included in the words of the verse in which Allah says (interpretation of      the meaning): *“Seek the means of approach to Him” [al-Maa’idah 5:35]*,      as stated above. 


      Based on this, the entire incident revolves around the      supplication (du‘aa’) – as is clear – and there is no mention at all of what      they claim. 

Fourth

      In the supplication that the Messenger of Allah (blessings      and peace of Allah be upon him) taught him it says: “O Allah, accept his      intercession concerning me.” It is impossible to interpret this as referring      to tawassul by virtue of the person or status of the Prophet (blessings and      peace of Allah be upon him), because what is meant is: O Allah, accept his      (the Prophet’s) intercession for me; in other words, Accept his supplication      for my vision to be restored to me. The Arabic word shafaa‘ah (translated      here as intercession) means supplication. It says in *Lisaan al-‘Arab*      (8/184): Shafaa‘ah (intercession) is the words of the shafee‘ (intercessor)      to the king asking him to meet the need of someone else, or the one who asks      for something for someone else and intercedes for him to get what he is      seeking… End quote. 
      Thus it is proven that the tawassul of the blind man was only      by virtue of the du‘aa’ of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon      him), not by virtue of his person. 

Fifth

      Among the things that the Prophet (blessings and peace of      Allah be upon him) taught the blind man to say was: “and accept my      intercession concerning him”. What is meant is: accept my intercession, that      is my supplication, that his intercession, that is his supplication that my      sight be restored, be accepted. This is the only way in which this sentence      can be interpreted; there is no other way of interpreting it. 


      Hence you see those among later generations who hold      different views ignoring this last phrase and not referring to it at all,      because it utterly demolishes their interpretation of the hadeeth. 

Sixth

      This hadeeth is cited by the scholars as being one of the      miracles of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and one      of his supplications that were answered, and an example of what Allah      manifested through the blessing of his supplication of extraordinary events      and healing from sickness. By virtue of the Prophet’s supplication for this      blind man, Allah restored his sight. Hence the scholars of hadeeth, such as      al-Bayhaqi and others, narrated it among the signs of Prophethood (*dalaa’il      an-nubuwwah*). This indicates that the reason for the healing of the      blind man was the supplication of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah      be upon him). 


      If the reason for the healing of the blind man was that he      sought tawassul by virtue of the Prophet’s status, as it was understood by      many later scholars, that would imply that this healing should also have      happened for other blind people who sought tawassul by virtue of his status      and sometimes added to it the status of all the Prophets and Messengers, and      all the close friends of Allah, the martyrs and the righteous, and the      status of anyone who has status with Allah among the angels, mankind and the      jinn! But we do not know, and we do not think that anyone knows, of any such      incident that was fulfilled throughout the many centuries from the death of      the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) until the present      day. 


      From this explanation it becomes clear that what is meant by      the words of the blind man in his du‘aa’, “O Allah, I ask You and I seek to      draw close to You by virtue of Your Prophet Muhammad”, is: I seek to draw      close to You by virtue of the supplication of Your Prophet. The text of the      hadeeth does not mention the supplication, but it is implied. This is      something that occurs commonly in Arabic, as in the verse in which Allah      says (interpretation of the meaning): *“And ask (the people of) the town      where we have been, and the caravan in which we returned, and indeed we are      telling the truth” [Yoosuf 12:82]*; in the original text the word      “people” is not mentioned but it is implied. 


      However, I would say: **Even if we assume that the blind man      did seek to draw close to Allah by virtue of the Prophet’s person, that      would be a ruling that applied only to him (blessings and peace of Allah be      upon him) and not to any other Prophet or righteous person, and applying it      to them too is something that would not be acceptable to sound reasoning,      because the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is their      leader and the best of them all**. It is possible that this is something that      Allah bestowed **exclusively upon him** and not them, like many other qualities      that were given only to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon      him), according to saheeh reports. When it comes to that which was given      exclusively to him, there is no room for applying it to others by analogy.      If anyone thinks that the tawassul of the blind man was by virtue of the      Prophet’s person, then he has to apply it to him only and not to anyone      else. This view was narrated from Imam Ahmad and Shaykh al-‘Izz ibn ‘Abd      as-Salaam (may Allah have mercy on them) and it is the only conclusion that      can be reached by fair-minded academic research. And Allah is the One Who      guides to what is correct.

Re: Is this true?

I got it down as something of a deviant response, and a clear attempt to hide an important aspect of Islam

Actually, personally I think its written by a Kafir, a non muslim who is knowledgeable to some textual degree about Islam. I emphasize on the kufr here to alert those who may agree with this view that they are too upon kufr, a fact which will be helpful to them if they ever make tauba

The views or their style is certainly not Sunni, the various means to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala, and the various forms of Tawassul are all beloved to us

I am going to try to stick to evidences I have already posted recently so as to ram home [to send below throat of a people who do not normally consume]

As for them it does not constitute evidence for seeking to draw closer to Allah Ta’ala by the virtue of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam person!

So what does this mean, do they not believe in seeking closer to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala by the virtue of The Prophets person, SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam? If it does, it means they are far from Islam, are Kafirs in my opinion. The Person of Our Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is what draws us closer to Allah Ta’ala

Aqida:
**[Ambiya 21:107] And We did not send you (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) except as a mercy for the entire world. (Prophet Mohammed – peace and blessings be upon him – is the Prophet towards all mankind.)

That, The Virtue of The Person of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, is why the following is possible:

Hadith:
Anas b. Malik (Allah be pleased wish him) reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to Mina; he went to the Jamra and threw pebbles at it, after which he went to his lodging in Mina, and sacrificed the animal. He then called for a barber and, turning his right side to him, let him shave him; after which he tiimed his left side. He then gave (these hair) to the people. (Book 007, Hadith 2991)

Anas reported: I saw when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) got his hair cut by thebarber, his Companions came round him and they eagerly wanted that no hair should fall but in the hand of a person. (Book 030, Hadith 5750)

**Narrated IsraiI: Uthman bin 'Abdullah bin Mauhab said, “My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama.” Isra’il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet. 'Uthman added, “If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama. I looked into the container (that held the hair of the Prophet) and saw a few red hairs in it,” (Bukhari)

**Here is the cloak of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). and she brought out to me that cloak made of Persian CLOTH with a hem of brocade, and its sleeves bordered with brocade and said: This wall Allah’s Messenger’s cloak with 'A’isha until she died, and when she died. I got possession of it. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to wear that, and we washed it for the sick and sought CURE thereby. (Sahih Muslim)


The cloak above is what came into contact with The Person of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, that is its, the Blessed Cloaks, virtue! Its Virtue is its contact

and to draw closer to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala is why The Companions RadiAllahu Anhu rubbed their faces with the Blessed Mucous of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, drank the Blessed Wudu water, and did not allow it to hit the ground, and sought cure through the Mubarak Hair

I feel the above is adequate protection of the Drawing closer to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala through the Person of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahili wa Sallam, and something which all Muslims will protect and positively believe in and highlight [honour with veneration]

However these people of islamqa [najdi fatwa site], and like minded groups, who have been quoted are unlikely to bend their backs in belief, so if someone has an alternative view of what they meant they can say what it is.

The words they used was ‘‘not by virtue of his person’’, I can assume now their supporters will say they meant virtue of some parts of the Person [Hair Muabarak, or something which only contacted the Person like Garment Sharif], but not the [overall] Person, or not the personal involvement in this particular dua ‘’…Ya Muhammad I turn to Allah through You…‘’. Which I remind people that is a calling [dua] within a dua of Worship, however for the purpose of highlighting their lunacy here it is specifically stipulated in the dua by name because it the dua was to be made by the virtue of the Person and by the Person of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam

The Blind man came to the Person of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, seeking cure, and his beliefs were basically correct, he believed in Allah Ta’ala and knew where to go for Help [to RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam]. The going to, travel/steps, is an important part of this seeking help. His dua to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala by itself would have been insufficient, that is why He needed the Person of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam. RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam gave him a way, a specific set of things to do, to achieve his needs.

oh so here it is, they say the blind man intention was not to grow closer to Allah Ta’ala by the ‘‘virtue’’ or ‘‘status’’ of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam - this from them is an error of lunatic proportions

He could have stayed at home, and tried to use the virtue, and status of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam but he chose to go to Virtue and Status.
What he actually did is more commendable, and what he did is more of a blow to these people, so much so that what the blind man was given to pray was not just by the virtue, but by the Person of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam and anything less would have meant the blind would not have his dua fulfilled, it would have been insufficient

To be continued In Sha Allah…

Re: Is this true?

Vroom before you continue with your refutation let me ask you this, have you ever heard of the Book البحر الرائق شرح كنز الدقائق written by زين الدين بن إبراهيم ابن نجيم who was a very famous Hanafi born in 926 H? Have a look at what he says in this book of his](إسلام ويب - البحر الرائق شرح كنز الدقائق - تكملة البحر الرائق للطوري - كتاب الكراهية - فصل في البيع - والدعاء بمعقد العز من عرشك- الجزء رقم8)

لا يجوز أن يقول بحق فلان عليك وكذا بحق أنبيائك ، وأوليائك ورسلك والبيت والمشعر الحرام لأنه لا حق للمخلوق على الخالق وإنما يخص برحمته من يشاء من غير وجوب عليه

It is not permitted that one say by the right of so and so upon you and likewise (it is not proper to say) by the right of Your Prophets and Your Saints and Your Messengers and The House and Al-Mash’ar Al-Haraam because there is no right for the creation over the Creator and He specifies by means of His Mercy only those He Wills without any obligation upon him.

Similarly consider what is written in رد المحتار على الدر المختار](إسلام ويب - رد المحتار على الدر المختار - كتاب الحظر والإباحة - فصل في البيع- الجزء رقم6) which is a Sharh of the famous Hanafi Book Al-Durr Al-Mukhtar written by Muhammad Ala-ud-din Haskafi in which it is stated

عن أبي حنيفة لا ينبغي لأحد أن يدعو الله إلا به

On the authority of Abu Hanifah: It is not fitting for anyone to call upon Allah except by Him.

It is quite clear from relied upon Hanafi Texts of the past that the Hanafis were never into Istigathaa or Tawassul for that matter.

It was actually Imam Ahmad, according to some narrations which have come down from him the authenticity of which would have to be verified, who supported Tawassul. Then the latter Maalikis and Shaafis adopted it.

How can you deny or explain what the Hanafis have quoted their Imam as saying in their very own books - these too classical works may I add?

Re: Is this true?

The statement of Abu Hanifa Rehmatullah Alaih has been explained to you, otherwise know that all Sunni scholars were Sunnis! So if a scholar is accepted as one of our own, it means he was Sunni, Sunnis believe in Tawassul [and many other things!] .

Hanafis are no different to the other Madhabs
and I told you earlier an outright denier of Tawassul will not be found among any Islamic group.

Don’t be silly

Imam Ahmad was a Sunni, like all the Muslims before Him. Before you start accusing Imam Ahmad Rehmatullah Alaih of Bidah, just go admit you are upon an odd odd type of religion that does not seem to have precedence

i feel like its not possible to explain these issues to you because Allah Ta’ala has with-held intellect from you. As for a short answer some things are allowed, some things are not

Re: Is this true?

On the contrary I believe you are the most ignorant and uneducated person I have come across. Your entire rationale in the above is a rant which goes like this

He is Sunni and that is why he accepted it and this is it (a logically flawed premise but discussing logic with you would be a waste of time since you can’t even understand basic sentences!)

It is easier discussing things with a brick wall then you because quite clearly you lack any knowledge whatsoever.
**
Imam Abu Hanifa detested Tawassul as clearly shown by classical texts. I know you can’t swallow it and all I can say is tough!**

Actually it seems like you are on a Religion which existed prior to Islam during the Period of Pre-Islamic Ignorance! :smiley:

Re: Is this true?

And to add what Ibn Hajar Al-'asqalaani (Shaafi) writes in Fath Al-Baari about what Ibn Al-'Arabi (Maaliki) says:

After mentioning the virtue of visiting one’s brother for the sake of Allaah, Ibn Al-'Arabi (Maaliki) said:

“This applies if he is alive. If he is dead, it is permissible to visit his grave too and to pray for mercy for him so that the deceased may benefit from the living (by his du’aa). But he should not seek to benefit from the deceased, because this is an innovation.”

[Quoted in Fath Al-Baaree, 3/65]

And who is unaware that every innovation is misguidance and every misguidance is in the Fire.