Similarly, Ibn Hajr al-Asqalani (Shaafi) in his Tahdhib al-Tahdhibrelates viaImam al-Hakim al-Nishapuri that:
وقال الحاكم سمعت أبا علي النيسابوري يقول كنت في غم شديد فرأيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فيالمنام كأنه يقول لي صر إلى قبر يحيى بن يحيى واستغفر وسل تقض حاجتك فأصبحت ففعلت ذلكفقضيت حاجتي.
Imam al-Hakim heard Imam Abu Ali al-Naysaburi saying, when he had extreme distress he saw the Prophet (peace be upon him) in his dream who said to go to the grave of Yahya bin Yahya(who is among the teachers of Imam Muslim) and to seek forgiveness and ask for his needs, and that he did so and his needs were obtained.
Imam al-Hakim al-Nishapuri (d.403AH) and Tawassul
The great mujadid and hadith scholar, adherent of the shafi school of fiqh and Ashari school of theology, the teacher of Imam al-Bayhaqi (d.458H), Imam Abu Abdallah al-Hakim al-Nishapuri (321-403H), narrates in his book “Tariqh Naysaburi”,
82 – يحيى بن صبيح (3) النيسابوري ……..معلم القرآن، وهو أول مقرئ أخذ على المسلمينالقراءات بنيسابور، ومسجده معروف في دار كروان، وذهب إلى مكة وهناك توفي رضي الله عنه،وهو إمام المحدثين، والذي إذا دعي على رأس قبره يستجاب الدعاء قطعا
in his biographical entry on Yahya bin Sabih, that dua at the latter’s grave his answered, in other words, it is a place of tawassul where dua is answered.
First, it quite disturbing that you are using an example of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam), the like of whom never existed nor will, to justify asking your dead “saints” who one does not even know if they were saints!
Second the book you mentioned of Ibn Hajar is a book on Asmaa ur rijaal in which Jarh and Tadeel of narrators is given. It is not a book like Fath Al-Baari which is a book of explanation of Hadith in which Ibn Hajar puts forth his views.
Rather Tahdheeb is a book in which the Jarh and Tadeel of narrators is mentioned and what they did.
Ibn Hajars position is that it is a bidah! The position you quoted is of Imam Abu Ali al-Naysaburi !!!
Both of us have quoted Imam Asqalani quoting peoples positions, You quoted Imam Ibn Arabi [irony]
The Ahle Hadith [Sunni Ahle Hadith of the Past] are well known for their likeness of Graves, and seeking help at graves of Awliya like Yaya bin Yaya Rehmatullah Alaih
The Imam was Ours, and I can see the quote of Imam Ibn Arabi is also Ours [in the sense i am interpreting it, there is a few ways it is in accordance with the Grave practices of Ahlus Sunnah for example we do not go to graves of our brothers for help, rather we go to graves of Awliya e kiram, those who believe in Awliya know who the Awliya are]
Imam Asqalani’s was a Sunni, and his view of Bidah was Sunni, look: Sheikh ul Islam and hadith Master of his age, Ibn Hajr Asqalani
The Sheikh ul Islam and hadith Master of his age, Ibn Hajr Asqalani was asked about the practice of commemorating the birth of the Prophet, and gave the following written reply: As for the origin of the practice of commemorating the Prophet’s birth, it is an innovation that has not been conveyed to us from any of the pious early muslims of the first three centuries, despite which it has included both features that are praisweorthy and features that are not. If one takes care to include in such a commemoration only things that are praiseworthy and avoids those that are otherwise, it is a praise worthy innovation, while if ones does not, it is not. An authentic primary textual basis from which its legal validity is inferable has occured to me, namely the rigorously authenticated (sahih) hadith in the collections of Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet came to Medina and found the Jews fasting on the tenth of Muharram `Ashura ’ [Husn al-Maqsad fi Amal al-Mawlid Page No. 63] [Continued in Next Page No 64] Click Here for Scanned Page (57](Scanned Pages - Page 57))
So he asked them about it and they replied: “It is the day on which Allah drowned Pharaoh and rescued Moses, so we fast in it to thanks to Allah Most high,” which indicates the validity of giving thanks to Allah for the blessings He has bestowed on a particular day in providing a benefit, or averting an affliction, repeating one’s thanks on the anniversary of that day every year, giving thanks to Allah taking * any various forms of worship such as prostration, fasting, giving charity or reciting the Koran. Then what blessing is greather than the Birth of the Prophet, the Prophet of Mercy, on this day? in light of which, one should take care to commemorate it on the day itself in order to confrom to the above story of moses and the tenth of Muharram, [but] those who do not view the matter thus do not mind commemorating it on any day of the month, while some have expanded its time to any of day the year, whatever exception bay e taken at such a view. [Husn al-Maqsad fi Amal al-Mawlid Page No. 64] Click Here for Scanned Page (58](Scanned Pages - Page 58))
I have derived the permissibility of Mawlid from another source of the Sunna [besides Ibn Hajar’s deduction from the hadith of Ashura'], namely :The hadith found in Bayhaqi, narrated by Anas, that "The Prophet slaughtered a aqiqa [sacrifice for newborns] for himself after he received the prophecy," although it has been mentioned that his grandfather Abd al-Muttalib did that on the seventh day after he was born, and the aqiqa cannot be repeated.Thus the reason for the Prophet’s action is to give thanks to Allah for sending him as a mercy to the worlds, and to give honor to his Umma, in the same way that he used to pray on himself. It is recommended for us, therefore, that we also show thanks for his birth by meeting with our brothers, by feeding people, and other such good works and rejoicing." This hadith confirms the aforementioned hadith of the Prophet’s emphasis of Monday as the day of his birthday and that of his prophethood. [Husn al-Maqsad fi Amal al-Mawlid Page No. 64-65]
Your train of thought goes like this. He is Sunni so he accepts it because Sunni’s accept it!! You don’t even consider the evidences!
By the way Ibn Al-'arabi was also a sunni and he said you shouldn’t do it because it is a bidah! So, how will you fit your train of thought in here? By the way this Ibn Al-'arabi is not that deviant Sufi ibn arabi but the Maaliki Mufassir and Jurist. Just so you know!
Look the Whole of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah believe in this. That is one of our traits. As for the Quote of Imam Asqalani then if i consider the specifics of it then it is acceptable to us, none of us go to the ordinary people.
As for what i presented from Him then it proves he was not averse to the Ahlus Sunnah practices. He confirmed one of the Imams of Ahul Hadith used to visit Imam Yaya bin Yaya’s Grave as a Waseela
And his stance on Mawlid proves he was a Sunni
This is the evidences. And Ahlus Sunnah scholars have warned much about Graves, this is all from us.
Your people have tasked you to prove it is shirk on their behalf, in worship of them. And you are getting bogged down in accepting the Grave of Yaya bin Yaya is a Waseela. Wth
Yes, from what you have quoted from Imam Asqalani. There is a lot of ‘‘practice’’ and a lot of ‘‘warning’’ on the subject all from sunnis. I do not know much else about him, since Imam Asqalani is quoting him it must be all good
My interpretation of the quote is he is talking about brothers, as in family, and none of the Ahlus Sunnah go to family just since they are so, rather we go to Awliya since the Help of Allah Ta’ala is with them
Imam Dhahabi (rah) narrates: Once there was a drought in Samarqand, People tried their best, some said Salat al Istisqa but still it did not rain, A renowned righteous man known as Salih came to the Qadhi and said: In my opinion you along with your public should visit the grave of Imam Bukhari (rah), His grave is located in Khartank, We should (go near the Qabr) and ask for rain, Allah might give us rain then, The Qadhi said Yes to his opinion and then he along with the people went towards (the Qabr) and then He made a dua along with the people and people started to cry near the grave and started to make him a Waseela (i.e. Imam Bukhari). Allah Ta’ala (immediately) sent rainclouds. All people stayed in Khartank for about 7 days, none of them wanted to go back to Samarqand although the distance between Samarqand and Khartank was only 3 miles [Siyar al A’lam wa al Nubalah, Volume 012, Page No. 469]
Imam Ibn al-Haaj (rah) states: It is recommended to visit graves of Saliheen in order to obtain Barakah from them, because the benefit which is obtained by them during their lives is also obtained after their deaths. It has been a norm of Ulama and Muhaqiqoon to make dua near the graves of righteous people and also to ask through their intercession…Anyone who has some need, he should go to the (graves of righteous) and make them Waseela. This reasoning should not be given that Prophet (saw) told not to travel except for three mosques i.e. Masjid ul Harram, his mosque and Masjid ul Aqsa. The great Imam Abu Hamid al-Ghazzali (rah) has mentioned in the chapter of “Adaab As-Safr” of his Ihya that traveling should be done for Ibadah like for Hajj or Jihad, after this he said: It includes traveling to visit graves of Prophets, Sahaba, Tabiyeen including all Ulama and Awliya. Every person whose ziyarah to obtain blessing is permissible in his life is also permissible after his death. [Al-Madkhal, Volume No.1, Page No. 216]
Imam Abu Abdullah Ibn al-Haaj al-Maliki also wrote a complete** Chapter on visiting Awliyah and Saliheen** he Writes: Student (muta-lim) should visit Awliyas and Saliheen and go to see them as seeing them makes the heart alive just as earth becomes alive due to rain, by seeing them the hearts which are stones are turned soft, because they remain present in the Bargah of Allah who is merciful, He never rejects their worship or intentions, and those who attend their Mehfils and those who identity them and those who love them, this is because they are mercy after Allah and his Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) which remains open for his men, so any one who has these qualities then people should be quick to receive blessing from such people because people who meet these personalities get the blessing,knowledge and memory which cannot be explained, you will know that due to same maani one can see alot of people who got perfection in knowledge and ecstasy, Any one who respects these blessings never gets away from mercy and Barakah, but condition is that the person who should be visited for a look should obey the Sunna’h and protect it and show it from his actions. [Ibn al-Haaj, al-Madkhal Volume 002, Page No. 139] Click here for Scanned Page (**78](Scanned Pages - Page 78))**
We ourselves go to Ibraheem Al-Harbi’s grave and seek Blessing with it
WHAT!
Ya Imam Ibn Jawzi Rehmatullah Alaih are you a Barelvi, I’d expect this from Barelvis?
Imam Ibn Jawzi(Rehmatuallah aliye)
Proof No:22
IMAM IBN JAWZI (RAH) WROTE A WHOLE BOOK DISCUSSING THIS IN DETAIL MENTIONING BIOGRAPHIES OF AWLIYA, he writes:
Maruf al-Karkhi (d. 200H): "His grave can be seen in Baghdad, and one seeks blessings with it. al-Hafiz Ibrahim al-Harbi (d. 285H) -- Imam Ahmad's companion -- used to say: Maruf’s grave is proven medicine" (2:214) Ibn al-Jawzi adds: “We ourselves go to Ibrahim al-Harbi’s grave and seek blessings with it” (2:410)
al-hafiz al-Dhahabi also relates Ibrahim al-Harbi’s saying about Maruf al-Karkhi: "Maruf’s grave is proven medicine." Siyar a`lam al-nubala’ (9:343).
You may go to any grave to reflect on death, to seek forgiveness for them … but should go to known awliya’s muqaams to seek a share of the blessings that are being showered on their resting places - I hope your nani qualifies there too …
It would be nice if you only presented evidence for the subjects under discussion which are Tawassul and Istigathaa and while your first example fits the second is only regarding Barakah which is something not even the Salafis deny!!!
Now as for the first example, I think you are aware that Imam Al-Dhahabi was a Shaafi and not a Hanafi. Unless you are a Salafi who picks his evidences from anywhere he can find them, I am assuming you are a Hanafi. Can you please give me a classical scholar from the Hanafi school of thought who supports your stance?
I already gave you a classical scholar whom you overlooked!!
لا يجوز أن يقول بحق فلان عليك وكذا بحق أنبيائك ، وأوليائك ورسلك والبيت والمشعر الحرام لأنه لا حق للمخلوق على الخالق وإنما يخص برحمته من يشاء من غير وجوب عليه
It is not permitted that one say by the right of so and so upon you and likewise (it is not proper to say) by the right of Your Prophets and Your Saints and Your Messengers and The House and Al-Mash’ar Al-Haraam because there is no right for the creation over the Creator and He specifies by means of His Mercy only those He Wills without any obligation upon him.
I am answering a general mindset that exists, and all these issues are things which refute you, if you were open to refutation that is.
As for Tawassul - then I have said its outright denial would be kufr in my view, and this is something you feel sometimes. Well you need to identify that feeling and correct it
Istighatha is the calling of creation who should be out of reach in the zahiri sense, and it is supported by Ayats of The Quran and narrations of Prophetic Hadith, and Hadith of the Companions RadiAllahu Anhu, and practice of the Ummah, of which a small selection have been shared with you. and as such we Believe it is both possible and permissible. Since my last post on this thread I have practised istighatha on a couple of occasions, All Praise be to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala
Also this is getting to be a bit of a cat and mouse game. You say this is Tawassul, and this is Barakah and this somehow absolves you. Well it does not. You see when you say this is Tawassul, I say what is Tawassul: calling Allah for help, calling Ya RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam for help, calling Allah Most Merciful again. If you say this is Tawassul I agree it is Tawassul and that is what Imam Subki Rehmatullah Alaih said when he explained Istigatha is a form of Tawassul.
Again likewise for Barakah. Well everything good is Barakah. So just saying it is Barakah does not allow you to walk away. Count your Blessings Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala says. A soft heart is a Blessing (Barkat) from the Barkats of Allah Ta’ala and above we hear seeing people makes the heart soft and ''It has been a norm of Ulama and Muhaqiqoon to make dua near the graves of righteous people and also to ask through their intercession…Anyone who has some need, he should go to the (graves of righteous) and make them Waseela.‘’
So yeah its Barakah, and Barakah is AID/HELP so shrugging shoulders does not work. You say its Barakah and I say its Barakah, so the question is what is Barakah - its aid/help/benefit - and where is it - its at the Graves
What has been quoted here from those Scholars of whichever Madhab is the general position of the Ummah, including Hanafis. We are not different to the other Madhabs in religion, so the same feelings exist in us, so much so that the unanimously celebrated scholars are often from a variety of different backgrounds and madhabs.
Well, then it would be perfectly permissible according to your thought to say Ya 'isaa Madad (O Jesus help me) because for starters not only is Jesus alive by the consensus of all scholars, he (peace be upon him) was a Messenger and Prophet and unlike the saints who die his (peace be upon him) piousness is something no one can debate.
So, I guess it would make more sense to ask Jesus (peace be upon him) for help then Abdul Qaadir.
This keeps me answering new subjects for you, however you are moving away from focusing on the kufr highlighted above which you have said you suffer from. The recognition of which, as kufr, would be beneficial to you. As would looking into the reasons behind your separating Subjects such as Barakah [Tabarruk] from istimdad [aid/help/benefit], and your being far away from the understanding of Muslims
Isa Alaihis Salam is Madad, so not just Oh Isa Alaihis Salam help me but He is confirmed help for this Ummat. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala calls Isa Alaihis Salam Ruhullah as Al-Masihu and He makes clay birds with His Hands and blows unto them and makes them real life, bi iznillah
I do believe we must say ‘‘Oh Isa Help me’’ and we must fulfil this requirement as a community before the end of times in order to be given the help of Allah Ta’ala.
So its not one or the other, I believe in the help of Both
So, saying O Jesus help me right now when he has not returned is permissible? Keeping in line with your thought it should be.
We can discuss what constitutes Kufr in Islam in the light of classical scholars later. Let’s first understand your entire view point on Istigathaa in detail.
Oh and I must commend you on reiterating something over and over again. In Psychology it is known as brainwashing. It is said “Repeat (even) a lie long enough and people will believe you.”
