In his another book, Separatism Among Indian Muslims: The Politics of the United Provinces’ Muslims, 1860-1923 (Paperback, 2007) Series: Cambridge South Asian Studies, Francis Robinson writes:
“It is not clear where the Berailly school had its strongholds but Mashriq of Gorakhpur and Al-Bashir usually took notice of pro-government fatwas of Ahmed Raza Khan, and it seems that school’s permissive thinking on Islamic practice appealed especially to certain low status groups in Islamic society.
The school adhered to corruption of Islam such as saint worship and intercession at tombs; these were common among converts, particularly in the rural areas, where often there were considerable similarities between Hindu and Muslim practices.”
On p422 on the same book, Robinson writes about Ahmed Raza Khan:“Nevertheless his normal stand was of support for the government and he supported it throughout World War I, he opposed the Khilafat Movement, and in 1921 organized a conference of anti-non-cooperation Ulama at Bareily. He had considerable influence with the masses but was not favored by educated Muslims.”
Can any anyone confirm or deny the information present in this book?
The writer is most likely a protestant himself, and these are the people who have helped an islamic form of protestantism emerge
Rubbish
Imam Ahmad Raza Khan had support of the Ulema who in turn had support of the people. He was the Mufti of the Muftis, so when a Mufti faced difficulty in answering a question he would write to Imam Ahmad Raza khan for clarification
He was not pro government either
The practices he is talking about here are Sunni Practices. I’ll write more about this in a minute. Basically, our Grave Culture, more specifically Grave of Saints culture is Orthodox Islam. These are sunni practices, that is why a group like Isis is destroying Mazaar Sharif in Syria, and the taliban is destroying them in AFPAK, and the najdis destroyed them in Medina and Makka Sharif. These isis/taliban/wahabis are a sect, where as ORTHODOX Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat EVERYWHERE built, visited Mazaar Sharif and sought help there
So Imam Ahmad Raza Khan is not the developer of our seeking Help through creation but IS A SCHOLAR from the orthodox islam which does seek help through creation! Remember this version of Islam was the dominant version prior to ahle saud being given the Arabian peninsula by the British.
The proof the WHOLE OF AHLE SUNNAT WAL JAMAAH were like this is these pictures of Medina, AND i CAN SHOW OTHER PLACES TOO:
Prior to the twentieth century, many of the graves were covered with domes or other structures.
“..Jannatul Baqi had Dargah’s and Mazaars in that place
before the saudis destroyed them.
However, after the city of Madinah was taken by the Wahabbi forces of Ibn Saud, many of these buildings and tombs, originally intended to identify famous figures and enable Muslims to receive blessings or petition saints buried there for their intercession, were destroyed, in order to keep with the Wahabbi ideal of not venerating graves..”
" ...***These are sunni practices, that is why a group like Isis is destroying Mazaar Sharif in Syria, and the taliban is destroying them in AFPAK, and the najdis destroyed them in Medina and Makka Sharif. These isis/taliban/wahabis are a sect, where as ORTHODOX Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat EVERYWHERE built, visited Mazaar Sharif and sought help there.."
Is there among you one who can actually admit his own religion, come call the people who you think are Mushriks as Mushriks based on principle that is not limited to 'limit it to barelvis'
Ive seen you guys grow and grow especially over the internet age, but one of the sickening aspects is that you have done so by propaganda rather then principle. This is the way of the jews - who make so much propaganda that not even the friend of the person being targeted stands by him
But you know Imam Abu Hanifah (may Allah have mercy on him) did not even approve of Tawassul let alone istigatha which is what your sect seems to preach. How do you reconcile this?
If you read the Sharh of Imam Al-Tahaawi by ابن أبي العز الحنفي
شرح الطحاوية لابن أبي العز الحنفي: وإن كان مراده الإقسام على الله، فذلك محذور أيضا، لأن الإقسام بالمخلوق على المخلوق لا يجوز، فكيف على الخالق؟! وقد قال صلى الله عليه وسلم: من حلف بغير الله فقد أشرك ـ ولهذا قال أبو حنيفة وصاحباه رضي الله عنهم: يكره أن يقول الداعي: أسألك بحق فلان، أو بحق أنبيائك ورسلك، وبحق البيت الحرام، والمشعر الحرام، ونحو ذلك حتى كره أبو حنيفة ومحمد ـ رضي الله عنهما ـ أن يقول الرجل: اللهم إني أسألك بمعقد العز من عرشك، ولم يكرهه أبو يوسف ـ رحمه الله ـ لما بلغه الأثر فيه
And for this reason Abu Hanifah and his two students detested that a person who is making supplication say: I ask You my the right of so and so or I ask you by the right of your Prophet....
Imam Abu Hanifah (may Allah have mercy on him) was from the Salaf without question. He detested tawassul. Grave worship comes under istigathaa. It is inconceivable that a man who detests Tawassul would even think of permitting istigatha.
[QUOTE]
The practices he is talking about here are Sunni Practices. I'll write more about this in a minute. Basically, our Grave Culture, more specifically Grave of Saints culture is Orthodox Islam. These are sunni practices, that is why a group like Isis is destroying Mazaar Sharif in Syria, and the taliban is destroying them in AFPAK, and the najdis destroyed them in Medina and Makka Sharif. These isis/taliban/wahabis are a sect, where as ORTHODOX Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat EVERYWHERE built, visited Mazaar Sharif and sought help there
So Imam Ahmad Raza Khan is not the developer of our seeking Help through creation but IS A SCHOLAR from the orthodox islam which does seek help through creation! Remember this version of Islam was the dominant version prior to ahle saud being given the Arabian peninsula by the British.
[/QUOTE]
Very interesting points you have raised. And I think if this discussion can be kept at a level where neither parties hit the boiling point it will be an interesting one.
First, you have shown the pictures of domes in Makkah and Madinah but when were these domes built? What was the exact time of their construction?
Second, Orthodox Islam has consisted of the Hanafis, Shaafis, Hanbalis, and Maalikis. I already showed you above that the Imam of the biggest school of Islamic thought detested Tawassul let alone istigatha by the dead which we are about to discuss.
But you know Imam Abu Hanifah (may Allah have mercy on him) did not even approve of Tawassul let alone istigatha which is what your sect seems to preach. How do you reconcile this?
If you read the Sharh of Imam Al-Tahaawi by ابن أبي العز الحنفي
شرح الطحاوية لابن أبي العز الحنفي: وإن كان مراده الإقسام على الله، فذلك محذور أيضا، لأن الإقسام بالمخلوق على المخلوق لا يجوز، فكيف على الخالق؟! وقد قال صلى الله عليه وسلم: من حلف بغير الله فقد أشرك ـ ولهذا قال أبو حنيفة وصاحباه رضي الله عنهم: يكره أن يقول الداعي: أسألك بحق فلان، أو بحق أنبيائك ورسلك، وبحق البيت الحرام، والمشعر الحرام، ونحو ذلك حتى كره أبو حنيفة ومحمد ـ رضي الله عنهما ـ أن يقول الرجل: اللهم إني أسألك بمعقد العز من عرشك، ولم يكرهه أبو يوسف ـ رحمه الله ـ لما بلغه الأثر فيه
And for this reason Abu Hanifah and his two students detested that a person who is making supplication say: I ask You my the right of so and so or I ask you by the right of your Prophet....
Imam Abu Hanifah (may Allah have mercy on him) was from the Salaf without question. He detested tawassul. Grave worship comes under istigathaa. It is inconceivable that a man who detests Tawassul would even think of permitting istigatha.
Can you deny this?
A particular type of tawassul was reported from Imam Abu Hanifa RadiAllahu Anhu for being disliked. I have heard its details in the past, and its not something which goes against Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaah. If memory serves me right the phrase that was prohibited was not venerative enough!
My research has found you would consider Islam and Muslims in our entirety to be shirk, if you were more willing to reveal yourself and speak with your religion. A complete Bidah and a reversal of Islamic thought
The Salaf were Sunnis like us Barelvis
I'll post a video of what your likeminded people actually think of Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal RadiAllahu Anhu.
Can you zeeshan confirm that Mazarat were present in the Two Sanctuaries of Islam during the time of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah, that is before wahabis gained control of the area.
This would mean Imam Ahmad Raza Khan can not at all be blamed by himself. The Ahlus Sunnah have to take this one on the chin and you have to supply that blow otherwise you'll become a person who did not forbid shirk even by your own [non] interpretation of Islam
A particular type of tawassul was reported from Imam Abu Hanifa RadiAllahu Anhu for being disliked. I have heard its details in the past, and its not something which goes against Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaah. If memory serves me right the phrase that was prohibited was not venerative enough!
It would nice to see some hard evidence with references for this. I shall wait for it patiently.
[QUOTE]
My research has found you would consider Islam and Muslims in our entirety to be shirk, if you were more willing to reveal yourself and speak with your religion. A complete Bidah and a reversal of Islamic thought
[/QUOTE]
I think your knowledge about Islamic history is slightly lacking. The Hanafis have spent many centuries fighting those who have been termed the Al-Qubooriyyah (grave worshipers) in the past and it seems like the Deobands have taken that up aginast your sect now. I shall give you the book, which I must remind you is in Arabic, which details this struggle.
Perhaps a Sheikh of yours can read it out to you. May I warn you it is over 1000 pages.
[QUOTE]
The Salaf were Sunnis like us Barelvis
[/QUOTE]
Once again empty statements without any concrete evidence from their sayings from their books attested to the authenticity by the chain by means of which they reached, mean nothing.
[QUOTE]
I'll post a video of what your likeminded people actually think of Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal RadiAllahu Anhu.
[/QUOTE]
What I love about discussions with you is how your blood gets to the boiling point and then you use words like 'likeminded' without even having any clue in respect to what I believe! :) I believe you need to read a little bit more on how the Salaf talked about Husn Al-Dhann which seems to be really lacking in your sect!!!
I think I shall help you and others out by putting excerpts from this book to show that this Qubooriyah has been battled by those before us and keeps popping up its ugly head from time to time!
Then it shall be clear if it is the Deboandi school of Hanafi thought or your sect which represents true Islam!
This is going to be fun. Plus the Arabic students will get lots of reading material.
And since you are our Arabic teacher, you can read an online version of the book here.
And I guess I’ll just use the word Al-Qubooriyah in my translations to avoid any bloods from boiling. I’ll reserve the translation for my Facebook page and for my personal website where I shall also be making the translation available.
You are more then welcome to do that, i look forward to it. I'll have a look at what you have written since my last reply, to see if anything actually needs a reply [in defence of Aswj].
If you are repping deobandi then this should be interesting, lol
Im a Qaburi, i'll just clarify from the outset. I go to Graves with the intention of seeking Aid and help
Peace ZeeshanParvez
Please stop accusing people of "grave worship" ... Ask them what they are doing, fine ... but don't accuse them of doing shirk.
To be fair he has done plenty of that. He normally asks a page full of questions and then says "fair enough"
However there is more then one personality which resides in zeeshan [ask him] so it may be someone else who has now left asking and embarked on teaching
You are more then welcome to do that, i look forward to it. I'll have a look at what you have written since my last reply, to see if anything actually needs a reply [in defence of Aswj].
If you are repping deobandi then this should be interesting, lol
To be fair he has done plenty of that. He normally asks a page full of questions and then says "fair enough"
However there is more then one personality which resides in zeeshan [ask him] so it may be someone else who has now left asking and embarked on teaching
We shall being with this page of the book (be patient names of the Hanafis in this battle will emerge people)
كلمة بين يدي هذا الفصل
Words (forward) before this chapter
لقد غالت القبورية في كثير من الصالحين إلى أن جعلوهم آلهة يعبدونهم من دون الله- بل في كثير من الطالحين-
Al-Qubooriyah have exceeded proper bounds in respect to the pious to the extent that they have made them gods worshiping them besides Allah
بل جعلوهم أربابا لهذا الكون متصرفين فيه كيف يشاؤون
Rather, they have made them lords for this being able to dispose off in it as they will
واعتقدوا فيهم علم الغيب مطلقا،
And they have the Aqeedah that these (saints) have complete knowledge of the unseen.
فوصفوهم بصفات الله تعالى، تحت ستار الولاية والكرامة؛
They have given them the characteristics of the Sifaah of Allah, the Exalted under the heading of Al-Walayaah and Al-Karaamah
وأشركوهم بالله عز وجل في إلهيته وربوبيته فصار إشراكهم بالله أشنع وأبشع من إشراك المشركين السابقين،
And they have done shirk with Allah in respect to His Godliness and Lordship and have become in their shirk with Allah worse than the Shirk of the previous Mushrikeen
وفيما يلي أمثلة أربعة لهؤلاء الصالحين الذين غالت القبورية فيهم أنواع الغلو
And in that which will come are 4 examples regarding these pious, those in respect to which Al-Qubooriyah have exceeded the bounds of excess…
Note: This is from the book. If it is against forum rules to cite such material of the past let me know. I will stop. But I think people should know of the battle which has raged among the Hanafis of the past very similar to the Deobandi and Braielly of today.
But you know Imam Abu Hanifah (may Allah have mercy on him) did not even approve of Tawassul let alone istigatha which is what your sect seems to preach. How do you reconcile this?
If you read the Sharh of Imam Al-Tahaawi by ابن أبي العز الحنفي
شرح الطحاوية لابن أبي العز الحنفي: وإن كان مراده الإقسام على الله، فذلك محذور أيضا، لأن الإقسام بالمخلوق على المخلوق لا يجوز، فكيف على الخالق؟! وقد قال صلى الله عليه وسلم: من حلف بغير الله فقد أشرك ـ ولهذا قال أبو حنيفة وصاحباه رضي الله عنهم: يكره أن يقول الداعي: أسألك بحق فلان، أو بحق أنبيائك ورسلك، وبحق البيت الحرام، والمشعر الحرام، ونحو ذلك حتى كره أبو حنيفة ومحمد ـ رضي الله عنهما ـ أن يقول الرجل: اللهم إني أسألك بمعقد العز من عرشك، ولم يكرهه أبو يوسف ـ رحمه الله ـ لما بلغه الأثر فيه
And for this reason Abu Hanifah and his two students detested that a person who is making supplication say: I ask You my the right of so and so or I ask you by the right of your Prophet....
Imam Abu Hanifah (may Allah have mercy on him) was from the Salaf without question. He detested tawassul. Grave worship comes under istigathaa. It is inconceivable that a man who detests Tawassul would even think of permitting istigatha.
Can you deny this?
Brother ZeeshanParvez
You have taken one statement from a commentary by a 14th century (7th century Hijri) scholar who is speaking about Imam Abu Hanifah in isolation to many other commentaries about Imam Abu Hanifah by other scholars. To say categorically that Imam Abu Hanifah detested tawassul - you will need to show that there is "no statement that shows he did it or approved of it" rather than showing one example of where it might be about tawassul.
Here the example you have given is about detesting a specific phase ... "By the right of" ... In other words what is stated here is:
1) It is detested but not considered forbidden
2) To say "by the right of" - but the reason is not stated by you as to why it is detested ...
3) You are applying this example on the whole subject of tawassul ... in order to be fair don't cherry pick bring all of the possible sayings that both support it and are against it in all of its possible manifestations and then start discussing ... that I think will take a long time - so it is better not to start these fights and arguments and concentrate on oneself and leave others alone.
