Is this true?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Is this true?

How can I do that unless you clearly define what you believe is Istigatha? You keep mixing it with Tawassul!

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Re: Is this true?

I think our definition of istigatha is the same, its direct calling
Many of our narrations on these subjects are istigatha, especially so at the Blessed Rawdah Sharif

As for its relationship with tawassul - see the quote of Imam Subki - it is inherently Tawassul

Do we now have an agreement that its permissibility is the correct belief?

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Re: Is this true?

Not yet. According to the material I have read Subki is actually the "granddaddy" who promoted this and the Salaf, like the Tabi' and those who followed did not practice this as we have no narrations from them.

I think given time we should examine Istigathaa in more detail. Tawassul, though I do not practice it, has never been an issue for me.

Istigatha, on the other hand, has.

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Re: Is this true?

See, this post of yours is all about Tawassul, not Istigatha.

We need proof for Istigatha from the earlir generations of Muslims - Like saying “Ya Abdul Qaadir Madad” which if allowed would mean we an also say

Ya Essa Madad

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Re: Is this true?

Ya Abdul Qadir Sheyin lillah requires a bit more then just an acknowledgement that there is room for istigatha in Islam, as is what we are discussing here

For that you need to believe certain things like life after death, and freedom for the slaves of Allah in the lands [all of which Allah is the Owner]
- I mean these are simple things but to really appreciate them

However purpose here to affirm istigatha in the above passages contains the words ''...*O Muhammad! I turn through you to my lord, that He fulfil my need...” *

This is istigatha

Drinking water which has come into contact with the Garment Sharif or Blessed Hair is also like istigatha, but not spoken words

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Re: Is this true?

I know why it is an issue for you - You are not with the people of truth

Imam Subki was defending orthodox Islam, and He was not the pioneer, but represented the correct Islamic opinion and is thanked by mainstream Muslims for his effort in preserving correct positions

Istigatha has many many narrations, you only need one

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Re: Is this true?

Well, you do realize that to make something a part of aqeedah you need mutawaatir Hadith. This is if you follow the maturidi aqeedah that is

Istigatha just does not have those.

You would have to be a Athari, what Salafis are, if you want to use a khar Al-'ahaad for aqeedah like the one you claim says is for istigathaa.

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Re: Is this true?

And I think you also realize that not accepting Istigathaa does not affect one in any way. I can call directly to Allah all my life and preach this.

You can't say I am not on the Truth for this!

But, Istigathaa, if not sufficiently proven, will put you out of the people of Truth in the end!!

My approach and those who follow it is a cautionary one on which there is no disagreement that one calls on Allah directly!

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Re: Is this true?

Well you can call Allah Most High directly all your life and die without medical attention, rather trusting in Allah, and this can be from commendable actions. However saying something like istigatha is not allowed, or Allah forbid to say it is Shirk necessarily or to label people Mushriks because of it, or to go around using it as propaganda tool is all from the bad actions

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Re: Is this true?

And have you ever had the chance to read this Hadith by the way?

at-Tabaraani narrated in his Majma‘ that at the time of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) there was a hypocrite who used to annoy the believers, so they said: Let us go and seek the help of the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) against this hypocrite. So they came to him and he said:

**“Help should not be sought from me; rather it should be sought from Allah.” **

أخرجه أحمد في المسند (5/317) لكن بغير هذا اللفظ، وأخرجه ابن سعد في الطبقات الكبرى (1/387)، وأورده الهيثمي في مجمع الزوائد (10/159) وقال: رواه الطبراني ورجاله رجال الصحيح غير ابن لهيعة وهو حسن الحديث

The Hadith is present in Musnad Ahmad but with another wording.
Al-Tabraani has narrated it also and its narrators are those of the Sahih expect ابن لهيعة who is Hasan in respect to Hadith

This Hadith would have literally destroyed the concept of Istigathaa had it not been that scholars have disagreed over its authenticity with ** الهيثمي **a Shaafi admitting to its authenticity but Ibn Baaj - a Salafi - saying he did not think it was authentic.

But what should come as a surprise to the readers is that unlike some sects who mistranslate material and use weak and fabricated Hadith to support their view points once they are bent on doing so, a Salafi like Ibn Baaz stuck to his principle and did not accept the Hadith since he believed it to be not authentic, though he could have easily resorted to the tactics of his opponents of using anything he got his hand on to dismiss Istigathaa as he was totally against it!

Food for thought.

[QUOTE]
Well you can call Allah Most High directly all your life and die without medical attention
[/QUOTE]

*Do you realize that you are saying this to a man who studied Ibn Arabi the Sufi, went mad and was diagnosed with Schizophrenia and had no hope of recovering and had to stay on meds for the rest of his life, but by calling on *Allah alone and making a vow that he would not study Sufism ever again and would only follow the Quran and Sunnah, he recovered leaving his own psychiatrist bewildered as to how this happened.

A psychiatrist, may I, who was a Brailley as he would tell me that the Quran says the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is a Bashr but he has the revelation coming to him, stressing on the latter like the Brailleys do!**

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Re: Is this true?

Its a practice of Muslims, not an aqeedah of itself

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Re: Is this true?

And an quick Arabic definition for the non Arab readers

فلفظ "الاستغاثة" في الكتاب والسنة وكلام العرب إنما هو مستعمل بمعنى الطلب من المستغاث به.

As for the word 'Istigathaa in the Book and Sunnah and the speech of the Arabs means that one is asking the one who he turns to.

وقول القائل: استغثت فلانا واستغثت به بمعنى طلبت منه الإغاثة لا بمعنى توسلت به فلا يجوز للإنسان الاستغاثة بغير الله فيما لا يقدر عليه إلا الله

And the saying of a person: I make Istigathaa by so and so and I make Istigathaa by him (or it) means you seek help from him and does not mean I have made Tawassul by means of him thus it is not permissible to make Istigathaa by anyone but Allah in that which the other has no power over except Allah.

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Re: Is this true?

The Hadith matn is in accordance with the creed of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah with a bit of understanding.

It is also in accordance with the understanding of the najdiyyah because they believe in the help of people - you might see this expressed as ''what able to do'' and similar phrases

I think with the way you are looking at it - it would ban all help from people and creation

[quote]

*Do you realize that you are saying this to a man who studied Ibn Arabi the Sufi, went mad and was diagnosed with Schizophrenia and had no hope of recovering and had to stay on meds for the rest of his life, but by calling on *Allah alone and making a vow that he would not study Sufism ever again and would only follow the Quran and Sunnah, he recovered leaving his own psychiatrist bewildered as to how this happened. **
[/quote]
I do not want to dampen your miracle, but I would say it is safer to pray to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala to teach you the truth of matters rather then invoke with sectarian biases. You see we gain in this world through bad actions as well as good. for example Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala could be giving you your heaven right now, and or a jinn could have left you alone for you are now adequately misguided, and Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has allowed this since you invoked Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala with a disliked invocation, and possibly joined a band of shayateen. And other possibilities

Those who seek shiaism have nothing to do with Islam. Add to that you are actively involved in creating dissension with regards to older interpretations of Islam.

Its even possible that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has given you that miracle to teach you the truth of your wrong dua. And this is the process you are going through right now

**

[quote]

A psychiatrist, may I, who was a Brailley as he would tell me that the Quran says the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is a Bashr but he has the revelation coming to him, stressing on the latter like the Brailleys do!
[/quote]
**
RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam was not an ordinary man. He SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is Best of Creation, and Someone Whose Jism pak could tolerate the Miraj journey, and you have the request and warning to Musa Alaihis Salam to verify this.

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Re: Is this true?

:) It would probably come to a shock to you that I have actually been praying two daily Rakah with dua that Allah guides me to the straight path, gives me a good death on the Kalimah, and grants me Firdaus for quite some time now!

Do you do the same btw?

[QUOTE]

You see we gain in this world through bad actions as well as good. for example Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala could be giving you your heaven right now, and or a jinn could have left you alone for you are now adequately misguided, and Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has allowed this since you invoked Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala with a disliked invocation, and possibly joined a band of shayateen. And other possibilities
[/QUOTE]

This is all conjecture and Bad Zann about Allah.

I like to keep good Zann about Allah.

But I think some people suspect Allah to much. If you want to be from those feel free to do so.

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:

                   The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "Allah the  Exalted says: 'I am as my slave expects me to be, and I am with him when  he remembers Me. If he remembers Me inwardly, I will remember him  inwardly, and if he remembers Me in an assembly, I will remember him in a  better assembly (i.e., in the assembly of angels)."

[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

[QUOTE]

Those who seek shiaism have nothing to do with Islam. Add to that you are actively involved in creating dissension with regards to older interpretations of Islam.
[/QUOTE]

My sentiments about your sect exactly.

I think rather than debating you I should pray for your guidance as well. I do for mine already.

[QUOTE]

Its even possible that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has given you that miracle to teach you the truth of your wrong dua. And this is the process you are going through right now
[/QUOTE]

Once again Bad Conjecture about Allah.

Like I said, I like to keep Good Conjecture about Allah.

By the way since when did asking Allah directly without resorting to dead people become "wrong dua?" Next time, I think it would be nice if you thought your responses through or at least explained in detail what you are implying!

[QUOTE]
RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam was not an ordinary man. He SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is Best of Creation, and Someone Whose Jism pak could tolerate the Miraj journey, and you have the request and warning to Musa Alaihis Salam to verify this.
[/QUOTE]

Who denies that he (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was not an ordinary man. Only man who has lost his senses would say he (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was ordinary.

But he (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was a man.

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Re: Is this true?

[QUOTE]
Its even possible that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has given you that miracle to teach you the truth of your wrong dua. And this is the process you are going through right now
[/QUOTE]

The debate so far has been about not resorting to Istigathaa since it is asking someone dead who has no ability to help you. My example of receiving a miracle through asking Allah directly which was to counter your false analogy that one can keep asking Allah without medical attention - with the medical attention for you being asking the dead - has been termed by you as "wrong dua?"

If this is what you meant, which you can clarify otherwise, I think you have something against asking Allah directly don't you? And if this be the case, you honestly think I am in need of guidance and not you???? And I am not from the people of Truth because of this? I am supposed to go to the grave of a man who I have no clue has even been granted Paradise or not and start saying O pious saint of God help me?????????

Have you forgotten that just because someone appears to be a saint does not make him one? Have you forgotten the Hadith of the first three who enter Hell are the Qaari - who recited so that the people would say he is a great Qaari - a Jihaadi - who did Jihaad to be called brave - and a Sakhi - who gave in charity so that people would think he is very generous.

*Your whole concept of istigaatha rests on the false premise that the dead person you are asking for help was pious! *

Really if you want to do Istigathaa it would be better you left your saints and asked help from Jesus (peace be upon him) as he, for one, is not even considered dead and is without a doubt pious! That is why Ya Esaa Madad is more logical than Ya Skeikh Madad!!!

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Re: Is this true?

^clear proofs of Istigatha and seeking help have been shown to you.

Your suspect dua was ''**would not study Sufism ever again and would only follow the Quran and Sunnah...''
**Not that you prayed directly to Allah Most Merciful

We know where Allah Ta'ala has put help for us

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Re: Is this true?

this hadith the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam did not put Himself forward to help because the matter was between Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and the hypocrite. I can now say this because I have seen one of my Imams confirm this

Where is the actual arabic wording? Have you seen it?

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Re: Is this true?

That was a vow not the actual duaa itself! Go back and reread what I wrote!!! And now you have made matters even worse for yourself...Studying the Quran and Sunnah puts me out of the people of Truth?!??!? And calling upon the dead makes me from among the People of Truth?????

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Re: Is this true?

You think I copy paste stuff like "some?" Enjoy!

أنه كان في زمنِ النبيِّ صلَّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّمَ منافقٌ يؤذي المؤمنين فقال بعضُهم: قوموا بنا نستغيثُ برسولِ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّمَ من هذا المنافقِ فقال النبيُّ صلَّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّمَ: إنه ***لا يستغاثُ بي، *وإنما يستغاثُ باللهِ

I have highlighted, in red, for you only!

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Re: Is this true?

Let me know if want a complete Arabic break down of that Hadith which I warn you, will make Istigathaa look really bad, btw.