Re: Is this true?
[QUOTE]
This shows how false the claim of vroom is that all of Orthodox Sunni Islam has always gone to graves.
[/QUOTE]
My claim still stands, i do not even feel the need to refute anything yet. My pictures are Champion
can you please state what you think of those who like me go to graves with the intention of seeking aid and help?
Lol
You got a Qaburi being so brash infront of you and you cant even express your religious opinion on that.
Re: Is this true?
‘Abdullaah Ibn Muhammad Ibn Manaazil saod:
“The Believer seeks excuses for his brothers, and the hypocrite seeks the mistakes for his brothers.” [Ash-Shu’ab, 7/11197]
But despite this my sincerest apologies if you believe if I have accused you of something false.
My purpose was not to highlight your mistake but to remind you of your persistence to argue with me in a matter which unlike Religious Aqeedah was proven by the science of the language.
No you have not accused me of something false ... My deficiency in Arabic at that time should not translate to a deficiency in all forms of understanding unless you wish to use that as a false connection as they do in sophistical (false) reasoning.
Re: Is this true?
My claim still stands, i do not even feel the need to refute anything yet. My pictures are Champion
can you please state what you think of those who like me go to graves with the intention of seeking aid and help?
Lol
You got a Qaburi being so brash infront of you and you cant even express your religious opinion on that.
Why?
Are you just the other side of the coin bro?
Re: Is this true?
My claim still stands, i do not even feel the need to refute anything yet. My pictures are Champion
can you please state what you think of those who like me go to graves with the intention of seeking aid and help?
Lol
You got a Qaburi being so brash infront of you and you cant even express your religious opinion on that.
brash is defined as:
self-assertive in a rude, noisy, or overbearing way
Hmmm...well if you are labelling yourself with that, I'll let the audience decide why you are such and I am so humble..may we shall.
Perhaps its my teaching in Akhlaaq from the Qur'aan and Sunnah which keeps me humble? :)
I guess I can't make excuses for your behavior anymore with that acceptance of yours can I psyah?
Re: Is this true?
Brother, I only tell you what the scholars of the past of the Madhabs say. I don't say anything on my accord.
Reverence is not Shirk.
Asking (duaa) directly (not Tawassul but istigathaa) is.
Because the the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said duaa is worship.
If you call upon anyone other than Allah for help as is done in istigathaa it is worship of that person.
This is how the scholars explain it in the past.
This is why Imam Al-Baghawi (Shaafi) says in his Tafsir that to call upon means to worship.
Remember, I do not speak from myself. This is what the Deobandis and Salafis and others say.
To call upon = worship?
So when I say "Mum! Can you help me for second?" that is Mother worship? Please elaborate ...
Re: Is this true?
To call upon = worship?
So when I say "Mum! Can you help me for second?" that is Mother worship? Please elaborate ...
When you ask your Mum for help, the schoalrs have said this is help from a person who is able so it is allowed as attested by the Sunnah.
When you call upon the dead, they are unable, resting in the Barzakh seeing their place in Hell or Heaven day and night, and cannot avail you.
Thus, making a false Qiyaas, as the Braielly do, of the living for the dead is what leads one to make istigathaa permissible when in reality it is not.
Re: Is this true?
brash is defined as:
self-assertive in a rude, noisy, or overbearing way
Hmmm...well if you are labelling yourself with that, I'll let the audience decide why you are such and I am so humble..may we shall.
Perhaps its my teaching in Akhlaaq from the Qur'aan and Sunnah which keeps me humble? :)
I guess I can't make excuses for your behavior anymore with that acceptance of yours can I psyah?
oh dear you focus on brash - brash in that context means 'in your face' telling you im a Qaburi, I seek aid and Help at Graves. My people, co religionists, built Mazarat from the east to the west, from the south west to north west. You get it EVERYWHERE.
However I asked you a more pertinent question
You baffle me [meaning lolz] with your refusal to answer
Im a person who goes to Graves with the INTENTION of seeking Aid and Help
and you, rather then tell me your religious viewpoint that it is shirk, talk about my use of the word brash
what an amateur, a real one of your likes would charge you with kufr for that
btw I am not mad or angry at you, please ignore any requests on my behalf. i would rather you use whatever language you feel is appropriate then say something for the sake of not offending. i am not easily offended, and whoever is wrong between us is a lanati as per the religion anyway
Re: Is this true?
AsSalaamo Alaikum!
InshaAllah, the dead will respond to duaas on the Day of Judgement when every soul will say Nafsi Nafsi, such a heavy day that even the mothers and fathers will disown their own blood relations just to save themselves. Or rather they (the grave dwellers) will disown those who used to call upon them while they did not even know they were being called upon.
Being "brash" under the guise of stubbornness is not a trait, it's a flaw that we all should be wary of. We need avoid labeling others which the whole lot of us do like it's our job. Rasool Allah (s.a.w) was the best of listeners, whenever he was approached by the polytheists, he would listen to them, and his response would be that of calling to the right path, and until the ayahs were revealed which prohibited asking for their maghfirah, Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) kept asking forgiveness for the best among polytheists (Abu Talib), and the worst among the supposed believers Abdullah Ibn Ubayy (the leader of hypocrites).
Why then do we find it so difficult to hold up hope for each other, pray for each other, duaa for each other, and share what we know in hopes that our exchanges may benefit and allow us to mutually rid some of our ignorance?
May Allah guide us all, unite us all, and forgive us our shortcomings.
And I will say that in my own personal, unlearned, unrefined view going to Graves to seek aid/help from those who cannot even help themselves is farthest from the Sunnah because none of the salaf-as-Saleh did that. The ways of Sahaba (r.a.) are proven ways of success because they got their teachings from Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) directly, and if they didn't do anything as a matter of practice, then I, in my personal capacity feel inclined to do my best to avoid the same. Though I fail in many aspects.
Re: Is this true?
oh dear you focus on brash - brash in that context means 'in your face' telling you im a Qaburi, I seek aid and Help at Graves. My people, co religionists, built Mazarat from the east to the west, from the south west to north west. You get it EVERYWHERE.
However I asked you a more pertinent question
You baffle me [meaning lolz] with your refusal to answer
Im a person who goes to Graves with the INTENTION of seeking Aid and Help
and you, rather then tell me your religious viewpoint that it is shirk, talk about my use of the word brash
what an amateur, a real one of your likes would charge you with kufr for that
btw I am not mad or angry at you, please ignore any requests on my behalf. i would rather you use whatever language you feel is appropriate then say something for the sake of not offending. i am not easily offended, and whoever is wrong between us is a lanati as per the religion anyway
AsSalaamo Alaikum brother vroom,
You sure like to ask questions of others, but very rarely do you ever answer any questions with evidence; rather your scripted response is that you either do not feel the need to provide evidence, or that you don't like to. But I go on out on a fat chance here asking Can you please provide some textual reference from the earliest of traditional scholars of Islam who went to graves to seek aid/help? Texts from the earliest generations would be best. Surely, a believer would not embark on a practice and do it as a part of the deen without having substance to establish the practice?
I realize you have often said your way is the way of traditional Islam, but traditional Islam should extend way back to the times of Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) and Sahaba (r.a.), should it not? Did they visit graves with the intention of seeking aid/help from any of the dead?
I'm really not seeking any personal opinion, and/or commentary, just references because they'll speak on your behalf inshaAllah.
Re: Is this true?
When you ask your Mum for help, the schoalrs have said this is help from a person who is able so it is allowed as attested by the Sunnah.
When you call upon the dead, they are unable, resting in the Barzakh seeing their place in Hell or Heaven day and night, and cannot avail you.
Thus, making a false Qiyaas, as the Braielly do, of the living for the dead is what leads one to make istigathaa permissible when in reality it is not.
JazakAllahuKhair brother ZeeshanParvez
So merely calling on another is not the criterion ... It is not substantiated with a caveat that so long as they are able. So what if the mother is alive? Merely calling on her when she is able is not shirk. I think a major part of this is missing. For example when a dog is alive I say to it fetch and throw a stick ... but if it dies and I say to it - fetch ... that is shirk? I can understand that it is absurd - but what makes it shirk? i.e. what makes calling on a dead person who is unable to do something equal to appointing partnership to God? Which part of this is partnership to God?
You see I have always understood shirk to mean ...
"Conferring the Haqq that is due only to God to another regardless of whether they are alive or dead"
Asking our living mothers to do du'a for us is not shirk, so it cannot be shirk if they are no longer alive either, it may be an oddity to ask dead people to do du'a for us but that is another matter.
Exacting intended worship is a Right of Allah (SWT) and likewise the Names and Attributes are unique to Him and calling others by those Names so long as that is what is intended is also a subclass of that definition that I gave above.
Ability to deliver it is a consequential part of it ... it is not a criterion in and of itself. Because obviously since Allah (SWT) is Unique and since all of His invocations are His right therefore others will be unable to fulfil the demands that are His Right, because He is Unique.
Based on this if people go to graves seeking what is the Right of Allah (SWT) then that is matter of individual concern - it is not a matter of a whole group of people such as the Barelviyya or for that matter the Qubooriyyah unless they attest in their books and scholars to doing something that compromises that definition. I say this to the best of my knowledge and Allahu'alim.
Re: Is this true?
I will try to write a reply which does not try to match your attempt in immaturity
zeeshan, Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaah do and do not preach Istigatha. There is a time and place for it[1]. There can be correct and misuse of it [fear Allah with misuse][2]
Istigatha is a form of waseela and tawassul[3]. Its just another type of gaining help from Allah Ta’ala The Giver[4]. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala loves for us to find ways to Him[5], and go to His Servants for Help[6]. This is why tawassul is allowed, this is why the Servants of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala are given, to give.[7]
We do NOT believe in Believers being dead dead, they are living. That is part of the dawa of Allah Most High - if you believe you will be given life.
References:
1 It is better that you are patient, but Istigatha is allowed:
The Hadith states: It was narrated from 'Uthman bin Hunaif that a blind man came to the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and said: “Pray to Allah to heal me.” He said: “If you wish to store your reward for the Hereafter, that is better, or if you wish, I will supplicate for you.” He said: “Supplicate.” So he told him to perform ablution and do it well, to pray two Rak’ah, and to say this supplication: "Allahumma lnni as’aluka wa atawajjahu ilaika bimuhammadin nabiyyir-rahma. Ya Muhammadu inni qad tawajjahtu bika ila rabbi fi hajati hadhihi lituqda. Allahumma fashaffi’hu fiya (O Allah, I ask of You and I turn my face towardsYou by virtue of the intercession of Muhammad the Prophet of mercy*.* O Muhammad, I have turned to my Lord by virtue of your intercession concerning this need of mine so that it may be met. O Allah, accept his intercession concerning me)".
References
►Ibn Majah transmitted it in his Sunan, book of Iqamat al-salat wa al-sunnat (establishing prayer and its sunnahs)[Page 197, Hadith No#1385) Click here for Scanned Page ([COLOR=#FF0000]87)
In Sunnan Ibn Majah then it says:
قال أبو إسحق هذا حديث صحيح
Translation: Imam Abu Ishaaq (rah) said: This hadith is ****“SAHIH”[ibid]
►Tirmidhī in al-Jami-us-sahīh, book of da‘awat (supplications) ch.119 (5:569#3578) where he declared it**“****HASAN SAHIH ****GHARIB” **Click here for Scanned Page (135)
►Nasa’i, ‘Amal-ul-yawm wal-laylah (p.417#658-659) Click here for Scanned Page (136](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=136))
►Ahmad bin Hambal in his Musnad (4:138 #17246-17247)
►Hākim, al-Mustadrak (1:313,519) where he declared it “SAHIH”
►Imam Bukhari, Book : Tareekh Ul Kabeer Volume : 6 page : 209 Biography number : 2192 Click here for Scanned Page (144](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=144))
►Abd Bin Humaid Book : Al Musnad Volume : 1 Page : 308 Hadith number : 379 Click here for Scanned Page (145](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=145))
►Ibn e Khuzimah, Book: Sahi Ibn e Khuzimah Chapter : Salat At Targheeb Wat Tarheeb (527) Volume : 2 Page : 225 Hadith number : 1219 Click here for Scanned Page (146](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=146))
►Imam Hakim, Mustadrak Sahiyan, Book : Salat At Tatawa’ Volume : 1 Page : 449 Hadith number : 1181
Click here for Scanned Page (147](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=147))
►Imam Bayhaqi, Book : Dalail An Nubuwwah Volume : 6 Page : 166-167 Click here for Scanned Page (148](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=148))
► Qadi Ayyad, Book : As Shifa Chapter: Ibra Al Marda Wa Zil 'Ahaat Volume : 1 Page : 322 Click here for Scanned Page (149](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=149))
►Nawawī, al-Adhkār (p.83)
►Imam Mundhiri Book : Targheeb Wat Tarheeb Chapter : Salat Al Hajah Volume : 1 Page : 241 Click here for Scanned Page (137](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=137))
►Ibn Kathīr, al-Bidāyah wan-nihāyah (4:558)
►Ibn Hajar Haythamī, al-Jawhar-ul-munazzam (p.61)
►Ibn Mājah, Hākim and Dhahabī have declared it a sound (sahīh) tradition while Tirmidhī graded it hasan (fair) sahīh, gharīb (unfamiliar or rare)
2 This also refutes you that calling/dua is worship of the one called. Dua is Worship means it is an excellent form of worship, it is a worship, not that calling is always worship:
**La tajAAaloo duAAaa alrrasooli baynakum kaduAAai baAAdikum…
**[Noor 24:63] [Noor 24:63] Do not presume among yourselves the calling of the Noble Messenger equal to your calling one another;… ****
So Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala says when and if you call my Beloved, do it with utmost respect
Imam Muhammad bin Yusuf al-Salihi (rah) has actually put the final nail in coffin of Munkareen by setting a whole chapter on this issue:
الباب الخامس في ذكر من توسل به - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بعد موته
روى الطبراني والبيهقي - بإسناد متصل ورجاله ثقات - عن عثمان بن حنيف أن رجلا كان يختلف إلى عثمان بن عفان في حاجة
Translation: Chapter 5: Regarding Tawassul through the Prophet (Peace be upon him) “AFTER HIS DEATH”. It is narrated by At-Tabrani **and al-Bayhaqi “WITH CONTINEOUS CHAIN (بإسناد متصل ) HAVING THIQA NARRATORS” **the hadith of Uthman bin Hunaif (ra) that a man came to Uthman bin Affan (ra) regarding his Hajah .. until the end of same hadith [Muhammad bin Yusuf al-Salihi in Sabl al Hadi, Volume No.12, Page No.
(3a) Some people object to the above hadith and say that it only proves Tawassul through Prophet (Peace be upon him) during his life, although their self cooked up taweel is false which goes against the teaching of Prophet (Peace be upon him) but still we would like to present another “SAHIH” hadith to establish that Sahaba took the waseela of Prophet (Peace be upon him) even after his passing away
[COLOR=#008000]وَهُوَ أَنَّ رَجُلاً كَانَ يَخْتَلِفُ إلَى عُثْمَانَ بْنِ عَفَّانَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ فِي حَاجَةٍ لَهُ، وَكَانَ عُثْمَانُ لاَ يَلْتَفِتُ إلَيْهِ، وَلاَ يَنْظُرُ فِي حَاجَتِهِ، فَلَقِيَ عُثْمَانَ بْنَ حُنَيْفٍ فَشَكَا ذلِكَ إلَيْهِ، فَقَالَ لَهُ عُثْمَانُ بْنُ حُنَيْفٍ: ائْتِ الْمِيضَأَةَ فَتَوَضَّأْ، ثُمَّ ائْتِ الْمَسْجِدَ فَصَلِّ فِيهِ رَكْعَتَيْنِ، ثُمَّ قُلِ: اللَّهُمَّ إنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ، وَأَتَوَجَّهُ إلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّنَا مُحَمَّدٍ نَبِيِّ الرَّحْمَةِ، يَا مُحَمَّدُ! إنِّي أَتَوَجَّهُ بِكَ إلَى رَبِّي فَيَقْضِي حَاجَتِي، وَتَذْكُرُ حَاجَتَكَ وَرُحْ إلَيَّ حَتَّى أَرُوحَ مَعَكَ، فَانْطَلَقَ الرَّجُلُ فَصَنَعَ مَا قَالَ لَهُ، ثُمَّ أَتَى بَابَ عُثْمَانَ فَجَاءَ الْبَوَّابُ حَتَّى أَخَذَ بِيَدِهِ، فَأَدْخَلَهُ عَلَى عُثْمَانَ بْنِ عَفَّانَ فَأَجْلَسَهُ مَعَهُ عَلَى الطُّنْفَسَةِ، وَقَالَ: مَا حَاجَتُكَ؟ فَذَكَرَ حَاجَتُهُ فَقَضَاهَا لَهُ، ثُمَّ قَالَ: مَا ذَكَرْتُ حَاجَتَكَ حَتَّى كَانَتْ هذِهِ السَّاعَةُ، وَقَالَ: مَا كَانَتْ لَكَ مِنْ حَاجَةٍ فَائْتِنَا، ثُمَّ إنَّ الرَّجُلَ خَرَجَ مِنْ عِنْدِهِ فَلَقِيَ عُثْمَانَ بْنَ حُنَيْفٍ فَقَالَ لَهُ: جَزَاكَ اللَّهُ خَيْراً، مَا كَانَ يَنْظُرُ فِي حَاجَتِي، وَلاَ يَلْتَفِتُ إلَيَّ حَتَّى كَلَّمْتَهُ فِيَّ، فَقَالَ عُثْمَانُ بْنُ حُنَيْفٍ: وَاللَّهِ مَا كَلَّمْتُهُ، وَلَكِنْ شَهِدْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، وَأَتَاهُ رَجُلٌ ضَرِيرٌ فَشَكَا إلَيْهِ ذَهَابَ بَصَرِهِ، فَقَالَ لَهُ النَّبِيُّ: «أَوْ تَصْبِرُ»، فَقَالَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إنَّهُ لَيْسَ لِي قَائِدٌ، وَقَدْ شَقَّ عَلَيَّ؟ فَقَالَ لَهُ النَّبِيُّ: «ائْتِ الْمِيضَأَةَ فَتَوَضَّ
Translation: Imam Tabrani has narrated an incident that a person repeatedly visited Uthman bin Affan (ra) concerning something he needed but Uthman paid no attention to him. The man went to Uthman bin Hunaif (ra) and complained to him about the matter- [Note: this was after the death of the Prophet and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar ] so Uthman bin Hunaif said : “Go to the place of Wudu, then come to the Masjid, perform two Rak’ats and then say : “O Allah!, I ask you and turn to you through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad! I turn through you to my lord, that He fulfil my need” and mention your need. Then come so that I can go with you [to the caliph Uthman] So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. 'Uthman asked, “What do you need?” and the man mentioned what he wanted, and Uthman accomplished it for him …(till the end of hadith)
References: Imam al-Mundhiri (rah) brought this under “SALAT AL HAJAH” and said: Imam Tabarani after narrating it said “THIS HADITH IS SAHIH” [At-Targheeb wa Tarheeb, Page No. 129 in the chapter of Salaat al Hajah] Click here for Scanned Page (140](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=140))
►Imam Tabrani Book : Ma’jam As Sagheer Volume : 1 Page : 306-307 Hadith number : 508 Click here for Scanned Page (138](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=138))
Note: Imam Tabrani, after narrating the hadith usually doesn’t say anything but in this case he specifically says it is “Sahih”
►Imam Tabrani Book : Ma’jam Al Kabeer Volume : 9 page : 17-19 Hadith number : 8311 Click here for Scanned Page (139](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=139))
►Imam al-Haythami (rah) brought this under “SALAT AL HAJAH” also accepted the authentication of Imam Tabrani in his Majma az Zawaid Volume No. 2, Hadith # 3668 Click here for Scanned Page (141](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=141))
►Imam Bayhaqi Book : Dalail An nubuwwah Volume : 6 Page : 167-168 Click here for Scanned Page (142](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=142))
►Imam Taqi ud Din Subki brought this under the chapter: “AFTER PASSING AWAY OF PROPHET” and also quotes Imam Bayhaqi in the end, Book : Shia As Siqam Volume : 1 Page : 370-372 Click here for Scanned Page (143](http://ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=29&limitstart=143))
Volume 2, Book 24, Number 553: (Sahih Bukhari)
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar The Prophet said, “A man keeps on asking others for something till he comes on the Day of Resurrection without any piece of flesh on his face.” The Prophet added, "On the Day of Resurrection, the Sun will come near (to, the people) to such an extent that the sweat will reach up to the middle of the ears, so, when all the people are in that state, they will ask Adam for help (استغاثو), and then Moses, and then Muhammad (p.b.u.h) The sub-narrator added "Muhammad will intercede with Allah to judge amongst the people. He will proceed on till he will hold the ring of the door (of Paradise) and then Allah will exalt him to Maqam Mahmud (the privilege of intercession, etc.). And all the people of the gathering will send their praises to Allah.
Now remember people will run towards Prophets for help, clearly word Istighatha has been used in this hadith, this proves that had Istighatha been shirk then it could never be allowed on day of judgment and all those Prophets would have rather told the people to run towards Allah alone rather than next prophet!
[Nisa 4:64] And We did not send any Noble Messenger except that he be obeyed by Allah’s command; and if they, when they have wronged their own souls, come humbly to you (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) and seek forgiveness from Allah, and the Noble Messenger intercedes for them, they will certainly find Allah as the Most Acceptor Of Repentance, the Most Merciful.
[Ambiya 21:107] And We did not send you (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) except as a mercy for the entire world. (Prophet Mohammed – peace and blessings be upon him – is the Prophet towards all mankind.)
vroom: The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is Mercy in His Person and His prayers and in all aspects and is still ours, sent to us.
Hadith:
Anas b. Malik (Allah be pleased wish him) reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to Mina; he went to the Jamra and threw pebbles at it, after which he went to his lodging in Mina, and sacrificed the animal. He then called for a barber and, turning his right side to him, let him shave him; after which he tiimed his left side. He then gave (these hair) to the people. (Book 007, Hadith 2991)
Anas reported: I saw when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) got his hair cut by thebarber, his Companions came round him and they eagerly wanted that no hair should fall but in the hand of a person. (Book 030, Hadith 5750)
**Narrated IsraiI: Uthman bin 'Abdullah bin Mauhab said, “My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama.” Isra’il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet. 'Uthman added, “If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama. I looked into the container (that held the hair of the Prophet) and saw a few red hairs in it,” (Bukhari)
**Here is the cloak of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). and she brought out to me that cloak made of Persian CLOTH with a hem of brocade, and its sleeves bordered with brocade and said: This wall Allah’s Messenger’s cloak with 'A’isha until she died, and when she died. I got possession of it. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to wear that, and we washed it for the sick and sought CURE thereby. (Sahih Muslim)
What you said about Imam Abu Hanifa RadiAllahu Anhu is actually shooting yourself in the foot, but I’ll keep my views about that to myself - i’ll quote Imam Subki just to let you know what waters you are swimming in with your willingness to accept the position you wrongly ascribed to Imam Abu Hanifa RadiAllahu Anhu - “only those people who where from different sect[Innovators in religion] rejected Tawasul.”
This thread was always a silly idea, especially if you were upset at me pointing out that the position you took in another thread was that of disbelievers and hypocrites. You really needed to delve into that subject itself, with sincere research but not relying on the research - but to Ask Allah Most High’s HELP in understanding
I have done the above myself and basically found those known as Barelvis to be upon Haq on matters of Beliefs. I have no more then passing familial connection to Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaah [Barelvis]. If you have been consuming anti Sunni propaganda for long period of time, I do realise that what I am saying will seem very strange to you. Remember its more important that you look into things like beliefs, rather then take something like my praise of Barelvis as more important.
Re: Is this true?
MashaAllah brother vroom ... that seems like a lot of effort and you really have presented you case well and objectively. And I knew you would be able to do so.
For myself I found it very hard to overcome unfamiliar ground because like most people in this day and age it is so much more easier to obtain learning material which is not from traditional sources. I had to look at material that you have presented and the material that I was familiar with and make a decision - and that was not easy. Especially because both sides seem to have counter arguments for each others' proofs. So I put my decision based on seeking out continuous chains of tutelage and character of the teachers and their students to make my decision whilst still being cautious about the learning material and checking up wherever I can ...
Sorry I went on a mind dump after reading your post ... :)
Re: Is this true?
It is a copy paste from here which I have already read many times before. Not to mention that I have gone through that entire website, and when time permits, it will be nice to enter in a discussion regarding the fabricated Traditions it uses for permissibility of kissing thumbs when the name of the Messenger of Allah (Sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is mentioned during Adhaan. A fabricated narration on how Abu Bakr (Allah is pleased with him) did so. But that is for another thread. Only to highlight the fabrications present on that website to the audience.
The Istigatha used here is that of the living not the dead which was the point under discussion. Hence, my original contention, and that of the scholars of Ahl Al-Sunnah - which may I remind you is not limited to the Hanafis of the subcontinent but includes those of the other three Madhabs as well - one cannot make a Qiyaas of the living for the dead as this website has incorrectly done. 
Re: Is this true?
[QUOTE]
Translation: **Imam Tabrani has narrated an incident that a person repeatedly visited Uthman bin Affan (ra) concerning something he needed but Uthman paid no attention to him. The man went to Uthman bin Hunaif (ra) and complained to him about the matter- [Note: this was after the death of the Prophet and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar ]** so Uthman bin Hunaif said : “Go to the place of Wudu, then come to the Masjid, perform two Rak'ats and then say : “O Allah!, I ask you and ***turn to you through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad! I turn through you to my lord, that He fulfil my need” and mention your need.* Then come so that I can go with you [to the caliph Uthman] So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. 'Uthman asked, "What do you need?" and the man mentioned what he wanted, and Uthman accomplished it for him ...(till the end of hadith)
[/QUOTE]
The fact that this website has used this incidence to justify Istigatha by means of the dead shows the complete ignorance, or purposeful deceit, of the writers.
Let me clarify for you and others, like psyah, who have bought what you have copy pasted from another website as to what exactly is Istigatha and Tawassul as it is quite clear that you both are unfamiliar with the terms as used and understood by the classical jurists.
Tawassul = To seek aid by means of calling upon Allah through a person or virtuous act.
Istigatha = To call upon a dead person directly to help you with the belief that he is able to hear you and can present your case before Allah, thus bring you near to Him and increase your chance of having your supplication answered.
Unless and until you understand the difference between the two, which if you cannot I suggest you pick up a classical book of Aqeedah by a Hanafi scholar since you belong to that school and familiarize yourself with the two, there will be no point to enter into a discussion as ignorance can never be debated.
Re: Is this true?
Great, Since you are familiar with it - I can expect a refutation rather then threats to come back with something, yeah?
OK another subject kissing thumbs. Kissing thumbs has been approved by some scholars. The hadith regarding it may be weak, but for us we are allowed to do amal that are approved from weak narrations. Imam Ibn Abidin Shaami and others have approved of the action, many people choose to do it.
I know what the scholars have said on some of the subjects, That is why i have accepted them as fellow Sunnis like me! Cos - they certainly wouldn’t be acceptable after that to you - imagine ‘‘forget’’ istigtha lets do it silently from thought to thought, from heart to heart!
Btw - the aim of the site is to disapprove the action being ‘‘shirk’’ in it of itself, and the actions being accepted in the community because that is what your like minded people, and those effected by you need as an answer
What is not shirk with the living being a principle for not being shirk when one has passed away is not Qiyas. It is one of our principles
None of your reply is really worth answering
Re: Is this true?
The fact that this website has used this incidence to justify Istigatha by means of the dead shows the complete ignorance, or purposeful deceit, of the writers.
Let me clarify for you and others, like psyah, who have bought what you have copy pasted from another website as to what exactly is Istigatha and Tawassul as it is quite clear that you both are unfamiliar with the terms as used and understood by the classical jurists.
Tawassul = To seek aid by means of calling upon Allah through a person or virtuous act.
Istigatha = To call upon a dead person directly to help you with the belief that he is able to hear you and can present your case before Allah, thus bring you near to Him and increase your chance of having your supplication answered.
Unless and until you understand the difference between the two, which if you cannot I suggest you pick up a classical book of Aqeedah by a Hanafi scholar since you belong to that school and familiarize yourself with the two, there will be no point to enter into a discussion as ignorance can never be debated.
We know what Istigatha is and we believe in it in our own terms. Exactly how is this reply relevant?
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Istighatha is just a form of tawassul, and not prohibited by Islam
Imam Taqi al-Din al-Subki (d. 756) said in his “Shifa` al-Saqam fi Ziyarat Khayr al-Anam” on p. 383 the following:
وإذا قد تحررت هذا الأنواع والأحوال في الطالب من النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ، وظهر المعنى ؛ فلا عليك في تسميته : تَوَسُّلاً ، أو تَشفُّعاً ، أو استغاثةً ، أو تَجوُّهاً ، أو تَوخٌُهاً ؛ لأنَّ المعنى في جميع ذلك سواء
“If these [three] types of Tawassul] and the [different] situations regarding the one who asks the Prophet – sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam – [for aid] has become clear and the meaning has become apparent, then it should not concern you how one calls it: whether it’s Tawassul,Tashaffu’, Istighathah, Tajawwuh or Tawajjuh, because the [intended] meaning of all of these [different wordings used] is the same.”
– end of the qoute –
And he said on p. 385:
فالله تعالى مُستَغاثٌ ، والغوث منه خلقاً وإيجاداً ، والنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم مُستَغاث والغوث منه تسبباً وكسباً
“So Allah ta’ala is the one whose aid is sought and aid comes Him from by the way of creating and bringing fourth. And the Prophet – sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam – is one whose aid is sought and aid comes from him by the way of being an intermediary mean and [by the way] of acquisition.” – end of the qoute –
comment:
“… It’s an absolute matter of fact that not a single scholar from the Ahl al-Sunnah prior to Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) – who is not from the Ahl al-Sunnah anyways – said even one word against seeking intercession through the Prophet, sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam! But rather we find authentic narrations regarding it and scholars – before IT and after him – explicitly allowing it.
Even during the time of Ibn Taymiyyah none of the scholars agreed with him except some of his own students. What does this tell us?
I really don’t understand what the justification of the Pseudo-Salafi movement is to put a highly controversial person above all scholars of Islam and to throw all the narrations which show that Tawassul is permissable behind one’s back?!?!
This is like accusing the whole Ummah – other than IT and his blind followers – to be ignorant regarding the religion…”
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Yet, you go through the trouble 
Actually, I have now adopted that approach for your comments after seeing how incompetent your sources are as seen in this thread.
Really, can’t debate when we have those sources. Guess its simply your beliefs for you and mine for mine! We shall find out what happens on the Day of Judgement. Chao!
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I mean you started one topic, it did not work out, then you held istigatha as a threat, it was proven from the narrations even though that was not my purpose. Then you jumped on kissing thumbs, and finally telling us what istigatha is.
Your last post was not worth replying to because rather then to admit or deny istighatha, you ended up talking about something totally different - telling us what it is, kissing thumbs and whatnot
What kind of hypocrisy is this? Why are you not dealing with the istigatha issue straight up? Have you joined another group other the Muslims?
Re: Is this true?
AsSalaamo Alaikum,
JazakAllah for the detailed reply with reference earlier, brother vroom.