*مقالة أبي حنيفة وأبي يوسف ومحمد أئمة الحنفية: ((لا ينبغي لأحد أن يدعو الله إلا به * وأكره أن يقول: أسألك بمعقد العز من عرشك * والدعاء المأذون فيه المأمور به ما استفيد من قوله تعالى: {وَلِلَّهِ الْأَسْمَاءُ الْحُسْنَى فَادْعُوهُ بِهَا} الأعراف: 180] * وكره قوله: بحق رسلك وأنبيائك وأوليائك أو بحق البيت الحرام ))
The saying of Abi Hanifah and Yusuf and Muhammad the Imams of the Hanafis:
It is not fitting that anyone call upon Allah except by Him
And it is Makrooh that one say I ask You by the Maq’ad Al-'iz of Your Arsh
And the permissible Duaa in respect to this which one has been ordered with is His Saying
The Beautifl Names Call (you) with them
And he detested saying: By the right of your Prophet and Prophets and Saints or by the right of Al-Bayt Al-Haram
You have taken one statement from a commentary by a 14th century (7th century Hijri) scholar who is speaking about Imam Abu Hanifah in isolation to many other commentaries about Imam Abu Hanifah by other scholars. To say categorically that Imam Abu Hanifah detested tawassul - you will need to show that there is "no statement that shows he did it or approved of it" rather than showing one example of where it might be about tawassul.
Here the example you have given is about detesting a specific phase ... "By the right of" ... In other words what is stated here is:
1) It is detested but not considered forbidden
2) To say "by the right of" - but the reason is not stated by you as to why it is detested ...
3) You are applying this example on the whole subject of tawassul ... in order to be fair don't cherry pick bring all of the possible sayings that both support it and are against it in all of its possible manifestations and then start discussing ... that I think will take a long time - so it is better not to start these fights and arguments and concentrate on oneself and leave others alone.
Relax teacher...you have a book online you can read! Or do you have trouble with Arabic still like last time when you argued with me about the Laysa 'illa clause!
I will be putting up the excerpts from the book. Both views, with nullification of the second, will be present.
Relax and chill. You could do your homework and read the book in advance :)
O and don't forget enjoing good. We must take care of our Muslim brothers!
If Qubooriyah means “grave worshippers” then what does “Hanafiyyah” … “Salafiyyah” … “Jumooriyah” … mean?
I hope you agree with me that “iyah” translates to “way of” … Way of Salaf = Salafiyyah … Way of Consensus = Democracy = Jumooriyah and so on … Qubooriyah would be better translated “Way of Graves” - i.e. people who visit graves as part of their routine practices … the worship part of it is a slur - an accusation that is cast on to them by onlookers …
Relax teacher...you have a book online you can read! Or do you have trouble with Arabic still like last time when you argued with me about the Laysa 'illa clause!
I will be putting up the excerpts from the book. Both views, with nullification of the second, will be present.
Relax and chill. You could do your homework and read the book in advance :)
O and don't forget enjoing good. We must take care of our Muslim brothers!
Please include nullifications of the first too ... jazakAllahukhair
The way to take care of Muslim brethren is to not start a fight with them ... Show compassion in the real sense of the word.
قال الإمام محمود الآلوسي (1170هـ) ، وتبعه ابنه نعمان الآلوسي (1317هـ) ، وحفيده شكري الآلوسي (1342هـ) ، والشيخ غلام الله الملقب عند الحنفية بشيخ القرآن، والعلامة الرباطي، والعلامة الرستمي:
(وفي قوله تعالى
Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create [as much as] a fly… [22:73]
إشارة إلى ذم الغالين في أولياء الله حيث يستغيثون بهم في الشدة غافلين عن الله تعالى
is an indication to the rebuking of those who go to excess in respect to the friends of Allah asking for help by them in trouble being heedless of Allah, the Exalted
الغلو في الأنبياء، والرسل عليهم السلام … والغلو في المخلوق أعظم سبب لعبادة الأصنام والصالحين، كما كان في قوم نوح من عبادة لنسر، وسواع، ويغوث، ونحوهم، وكما كان من عبادة النصارى للمسيح عليه السلام)
**
Excess in the Prophets and Messengers (upon them is peace) and excess in the creation is the greatest cause of worshiping idols and the pious as was in the nation of Nuh…and as was in the worshipping of the Al-Nasaaraa (christians) of Al-Maseeh (upon him is peace).
More translations and excerpts tomorrow In Shaa Allah. Book is there for those who find to go ahead and translate portions of the daleels of the opposite side.
I will with time. But you can always check the book reference page I give and translate too!
That would be unnecessary for me ... It will follow what you may think is useful but it not a productive activity. It is good that you providing the references. It is possibly a mundane task to copy line by line from a book - but it does not prove anything apart from being able to do that ... engage with the hearts and see if another way works - create friends and not enemies.
إن من أعظم مكائد الشيطان على بني آدم قديما وحديثا- إدخال الشرك فيهم في قالب تعظيم الصالحين وتوقيرهم بتغيير اسمه بالتوسل، والتشفع، ونحوه، فالمشرك مشرك شاء أم أبى، والزنا زنا وإن سمي جماعا، والخمر خمر وإن سمي شرابا
One of the biggest goals of the Devil for Bani 'Adam in the past and present is the entering of Shirk in them by means of doing 'Ta'zeem of the pious by means of reverence by chaning its name to Tawassul....and the Mushrik is a Mushrik just like Zinaa is Zinaa even if you name it intercourse and wine is wine even if you name it a drink.
Note: All the scholars of the Hanafi school mentioned so far are those who lived WAY before the formation of the Deobandi school and they were not even form the sub continent. This shows how false the claim of vroom is that all of Orthodox Sunni Islam has always gone to graves.
Relax teacher...you have a book online you can read! Or do you have trouble with Arabic still like last time when you argued with me about the Laysa 'illa clause!
I pray that I understand my limits and accept them with love for the one who shows me my folly ... I am tasked however when the one who corrects me does so through a sense of superiority ...
I pray that I understand my limits and accept them with love for the one who shows me my folly ... I am tasked however when the one who corrects me does so through a sense of superiority ...
:) Dear brother. What makes you think I am superior? Is it the tone of writing? Do you not know that the writing medium is a very deceptive one.
Have you forgotten that the Salaf would make 100 excuses for their brother?
I pray that I understand my limits and accept them with love for the one who shows me my folly ... I am tasked however when the one who corrects me does so through a sense of superiority ...
‘Abdullaah Ibn Muhammad Ibn Manaazil saod:
“The Believer seeks excuses for his brothers, and the hypocrite seeks the mistakes for his brothers.” [Ash-Shu’ab, 7/11197]
But despite this my sincerest apologies if you believe if I have accused you of something false.
My purpose was not to highlight your mistake but to remind you of your persistence to argue with me in a matter which unlike Religious Aqeedah was proven by the science of the language.
إن من أعظم مكائد الشيطان على بني آدم قديما وحديثا- إدخال الشرك فيهم في قالب تعظيم الصالحين وتوقيرهم بتغيير اسمه بالتوسل، والتشفع، ونحوه، فالمشرك مشرك شاء أم أبى، والزنا زنا وإن سمي جماعا، والخمر خمر وإن سمي شرابا
One of the biggest goals of the Devil for Bani 'Adam in the past and present is the entering of Shirk in them by means of doing 'Ta'zeem of the pious by means of reverence by chaning its name to Tawassul....and the Mushrik is a Mushrik just like Zinaa is Zinaa even if you name it intercourse and wine is wine even if you name it a drink.
Note: All the scholars of the Hanafi school mentioned so far are those who lived WAY before the formation of the Deobandi school and they were not even form the sub continent. This shows how false the claim of vroom is that all of Orthodox Sunni Islam has always gone to graves.
Brother ... regardless of what brother vroom says ... please do one thing for me:
Prove that Barelviyya = Qubooriyah
At what point exactly is reverence shirk ... Of course there is a scale here - so can you pin point exactly when an act of reverence becomes shirk? JazakAllahuKhair
Well, it seems this discussion will end up in a war, not from my side, but from the side of psyah and vroom as things usually seem to happen here on controversial matters.
Well, vroom had the privilege of labeling me a hypocrite and disbeliever (something so typical of his sect) in another thread :) and today when the past writers have labelled his way of thinking grave worship psyah jumps into the rescue.
Guess, we will find on a day when there will be no intercession except for him who Allah Permits, who is right and who is wrong. Time to sleep now.
Brother ... regardless of what brother vroom says ... please do one thing for me:
Prove that Barelviyya = Qubooriyah
At what point exactly is reverence shirk ... Of course there is a scale here - so can you pin point exactly when an act of reverence becomes shirk? JazakAllahuKhair
Brother, I only tell you what the scholars of the past of the Madhabs say. I don't say anything on my accord.
Reverence is not Shirk.
Asking (duaa) directly (not Tawassul but istigathaa) is.
Because the the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said duaa is worship.
If you call upon anyone other than Allah for help as is done in istigathaa it is worship of that person.
This is how the scholars explain it in the past.
This is why Imam Al-Baghawi (Shaafi) says in his Tafsir that to call upon means to worship.
Remember, I do not speak from myself. This is what the Deobandis and Salafis and others say.