is this a trouble with some muslims or am I missing something?

Pir e muhtaram, thats totally haram, but did u check the islamic mortgage system i explained?

No we are not not on same page , If I have to pay interest then as a rational buyer and a rational Muslim I will pay 6 percent to a conventional bank as compared to 8 percent of Lariba. Financing by Lariba is always a little or more than a little higher than the conventional mortgage although they want you to belive contrary to that.

Re: is this a trouble with some muslims or am I missing something?

Ya mirchi bhaiyun azizun

the thing is u r not paying any interest, and did u see the video where the chairman of Lariba explains its relationship to fennie freddie ???

neither u r paying Riba, nor Lariba is paying riba, fennie freddie has a riba business but in this case they are getting rent on the house which is decreasing every month.

U are neither giving interest nor taking interest, and same goes for Lariba. either u can chose to see the glass half full or half empty, full glass shows that u r promoting interest less mortgage and economy in a non muslim state and i salute the chairman of lariba to introduce this islamic system to freddie and fennie and it actually made sense to em that money can be made without taking interest.

i would repeat the samething again, ur retirement fund and unemployment insurance also is based on interest, ur car insurance is also based on interest, the benefits u get and ur kids get from government also come from interest money, but u r neither giving interest nor taking it, third party is doing everything and u have no control on it, ur transaction is totally halal without any interest

Re: is this a trouble with some muslims or am I missing something?

and i think i spent 15 minutes in my post just to explain that u r not paying any interest, u r paying rent on ur house, and there is a 1000% difference in renting money and renting a house.

Re: is this a trouble with some muslims or am I missing something?

If I steal money and go to Lariba that I robbed the bank and here is the money so take it please and invest it in interest free banking on my behalf. So it is all cool with Lariba ? The bottom line is the money Fraddie and Fannie are investing in interest free banking at Lariba is not interest free it self , it is borrowed at interest or it is given by government to Freddie and Fannie on interest it is not free money. Although it is tax payers money still Freddie and Fannie have to pay interest to Govt. So Lariba is not such an hero. They cannot be they have to one point or the other involve into the business of interest, which they do by taking money from Freddie and Fannie.

call an interest payment eidi for all I care, its the same thing.

Fact is that you are buying the house and making a payment which increases your equity based on a schedule in that time period..thats what it is, and its the same in conventional or shariah compliant financing. call it whatever.

hazoor..one of my pals was a broker of these shariah complaint mortgages, not because of some love for shariah based financing, but because the job paid well :) i know the system well.

the amount of maneuvers they go thru to make it 'shriah compliant" similar logic can be used for any interest based transaction, even for interest bearingf checking accounts. but thats a whole diff story..

essentially you are saying that if pork is haram, u cant make pork stock and use it to make broth for a zabeehah mutton roast..yeah?

Eggjaktlee.
Specialy if the mutton roast is sold as halal roast at a higher rate than the one made with non zabiha mutton stock.

Re: is this a trouble with some muslims or am I missing something?

Bhai trust me, now we are talking about point of views not islam.
Let me tell u something bhai.
Lariba is one the very few islamic banks who are not playing with words, nor hiding some thing. most of the islamic banks are charging u interest by using those fancy arabic words that i mentioned in my previous post. and they are telling u their exact model which is 100% islamic, they are not charging u even a penny on money rental, nor they are giving even a penny in interest to fennie freddie. here is the quote from lariba site "LARIBA DOES NOT BORROW MONEY FROM FREDDIE MAC / FANNIE MAE NOR SELL LOANS" its an ideal islamic economic system mirch bhai. Islam wants the lender to be a partner in profit and loss and thats wat lariba is doing, in conventional banking they dont give a damn, u declare bankrupcy they take the house and get their investment back.
Lariba system is trillion times better than the conventional banking system.
From an islamic prospective Lariba mortgage is trillion times better than urs and my home mortgage.

i dont get onething, y we have to disagree with every single thing.
i assume u live in a house and u pay mortgage every month, so wats the case here?? the case is u pay interest to ur bank which is haram, and bank is renting u money which is haram, and then bank is also paying interest to fennie freddie which is haram, and fennie freddie is also renting money which haram, and they are also paying interest to federal reserve which is haram again.
now count the number of times i wrote the word haram in there.
now consider Lariba , u dont pay any interest cuz u r paying rent on ur house which is decreasing every month which is absolutly halal, lariba is not renting u any money but is renting u the house which is also halal, lariba is not paying any interest to freddie and fennie which is halal, and fennie and freddie are also not renting u any money which is again halal, the only haram thing here is that fennie freddie is paying interest to fed reserve.

now cound the number of times i wrote haram in the mortgage i assume u have and the mortgage the islamic system is offering.

and i really got sader after reading ur this post

[Quote]
No we are not not on same page , If I have to pay interest then as a rational buyer and a rational Muslim I will pay 6 percent to a conventional bank as compared to 8 percent of Lariba. Financing by Lariba is always a little or more than a little higher than the conventional mortgage although they want you to belive contrary to that.
[/Quote]

i might not be as knowledgeable as u r but still i m a student of islam for last 12 years and alhumdulila with my lil bit no how of economy i can tell u there is not eve a single penny interest involved Lariba. Lariba might charge u more but charging more means they are charging u interest, they are charging more because u r paying monthly interest free payment and on top of that the rent on the portion lariba owns on the house.

U would prefer conventional banking over lariba just cuz it charges more?? or cuz at the end only one party is paying interest out of 5 in lariba and in ur conventional financing all 5 are paying usury. or u would just hate lariba cuz fennie and freddie give interest to fed reserve.
then i would repeat the same thing again. u work in a company, 95% of the corporates in USA have invested their revenues in interest and then the re invest that interest in their company and u get paid with that, now y dont u leave ur job and go to a muslim country where there is no interest involved, the 95% figure i qouted is not just made up, search bloomberg and u would know, and if u think ur employers is out of 5% then u will also be surprised to know that all the medium and big corporates in USA pay their employees by taking money off from their business line of credit and then they clear it off quarterly matching their revenues and profits, so most prolly ur pay is also coming out of interest, and if thats not the case either then u r living in USA which is the only biggest pure capitalistic and interest based economy in the world and u r part of that, and u chose to live in their but u wont prefer lariba on conventional banking cuz in lariba out of five only one dude is paying interest and in the conventional all 5 are paying interest.

u know wat y u r not leaving USA cuz in ur subconscious u know that u r not involved in Riba u r just doing your job giving halal money to ur kids and leading a simple life, its only ur boss who is indulging in interest for ur pay and its his problem not urs and its govts problem, well use the same approach for LAriba.

option is urs, u think all five dudes paying interest is better or only at the back is better.

Re: is this a trouble with some muslims or am I missing something?

ecoshan

so if someone had their loan through "shariah compliant financing" and the value of their property tanks, who eats the loss.

which muslim country would that be ecoshan? that has no impact of interest..

first of all the way u opened the thread was that u dont have any point of view and u wanted to ask questions so that u could get answer and make up ur point of view lol and i mentioned in my very first post that u know more than i do and u also know the answers to the questions and see thats wat u r doing now, arguing on ur own point of view.

now coming back to the topic of shariah financing/ banking.

u have totally confused urself. if u read my very first post i explained that most of the guys in the market are selling u interest based mortgages just by playing with words to make u feel its islamic financing, they are using Murabaha bases in their financing which leads to Riba al nasi'aa and it is haram. if u think m using fancy words aswell then leme explain it to u in easy words , wat they do/ did was that they would buy the house for the market price and would sell u by adding extra huge margin on that, for example the house is worth 200;000, they would buy it for 200,000 and then sell it to u for 500,000 by saying "oh my dear brother in islam its not interest, its just my profit and it is the market value of the house on the time by which u would pay me back the money" it is interest doesn matter wat word they use.

but the model i posted from lariba is different and totally halal and islamic. but just leme mention first that i dont work for lariba nor i intend to do in future, i just pray they come to canada aswell so that i could also get shariah financing.

Now this is wat u said.

"Fact is that you are buying the house and making a payment which increases your equity based on a schedule in that time period..thats what it is, and its the same in conventional or shariah compliant financing. call it whatever."

Now wats wrong with paying the installment and geting ur equity/ ownership increased. now u r playing with words lol, remember wat haram is "renting money" and interest.

Bhai there is a very thin line between interest and shariah financing, actually the line is so thin that sometimes u have to use a microscope to see it and m gona show u that line tonight insha Allah by lending u my glasses without any interest lol.

Islams point of view is that noone can rent u money to get fixed payments on that cuz it is interest. Islam says that if u need money somebody should just give u money without any renting of money or interest, but if it is for business purposes then that guy can lend u money on the partnership bases and both the lender and borrower would share the profit and loss.

now i would appreciate if u please read the above red statement twice so that u have everything clear about that. and i also repeat, in islam u can not rent ur money, u can rent anything but not money, u can rent a car, u can rent an apartment, u can rent a bridal suite but u cant rent money, and if u need money then someone gota do parternship with ya on a condition that he would share the profit and loss.

Now we are gona analyze both conventional system which mirch bhai would prefer and Lariba / shariah system that i would prefer and m gona show conventional is totally opposite to wat islam says and how perfect lariba system is.

In conventional banking if u want to buy a house u would go to ur bank ask em for money and they would make u sign a contract that would say that they are renting u their money and u gota make a fixed monthly payment to pay back ur house plus 7% interest till the house is paid off.

so suppose if ur house is worth 100,000 and ur montly payment is $1000 dollar + 7% yearly interest which monthly would be approx $585 so ur monthly payment would be $1585 per month. and now it wont change, if ur mortgage period is 20 years u gota pay the same 1585 for 20 years out which 1000% is going towards the payment which is increasing ur ownership in the house and that 585 is the interest aka rent on the money u borrowed.
and Bank is not doing any parternship nor sharing profit or loss, which is haram in islam. so if u loss ur job u will have to file bankruptcy and all the payments u have paid go into the bankers pocket, u r back at square one, bank not only takes all the payments but also takes away ur house.

so everything in that system is haram from renting money to fixed payments to no profit loss partnership.

now analyze Lariba/ shariah financing and m gona try my best to show the thin line insha Allah.

now same scenario again and u want to buy a house, instead of going to conventional bank this time u would go to Lariba. they would analyze everything and accept ur offer, but the first thing they would do to make them different from conventional mortgage is that instead of signing renting u the money which is haram they would do partnership with u, now u would ask how, i will explain.

they wont rent u the money, they would do parternship for the same house which is $100,000. U put in down payment of $10,000 and Lariba puts in 90,000. now u own 10% of the house and Lariba owns 90% and u sign the contract that u will pay back 90,000 in ten years and start living in the house, but the problem is that u only own 10% and u r using the whole house and Lariba owns 90% and is not using it atoll, so wat would happen is that u have to pay the rent of that 90% which lariba owns and renting a house is halal in islam. but its not Lariba who decides the rent amount, real estate brokers do, u take qoute from 3 real estate brokers for the rent of that house and Lariba would also take from 3, so now u have 6 qoutes and the one which is most reasonable amongst all, or if more brokers agree on one amount than that is the amount u have to pay as rent. now u would be thinking its same as conventional banking, no its not, there they were renting the money deciding their interest rates and here they are renting the house and independent brokers are decideing wat should be the rent.
so the payment methode would be that suppose if u have to pay back $1000 a month as basic payment which is interest free just like conventional banking, instead of interest, or rent on money u would pay rent on the 90% of the house which Lariba owns and suppose its $600 dollars a month. so $1000 interest free payment and $600 rent would make it $1600 a month. now u would be thinking its almost the same thing, for conventional u were paying $1585 a month and for Lariba u r paying $1600 a month, but thats not the case, in conventional u have to pay 1585 for 20 years, and in lariba first month u paid 1600 hundred but next month u wont pay 1600 cuz next month Lariba doesnt own 90% of the house cuz u have paid em back 1000. so they just own 89%, so ur payment would be $1598 instead of 1600, then next month lariba would own only 88% instead of 89% cuz u paid another 1000 so ur mortgage payment would be 1596, and next month 1594 and next month 1592 and so on. ur share in parternship is increasing and Lariba's is decreasing.
and as islam requires the partner to share the profit or loss, so Godforbid if u lose ur job and have to file bankruptcy ur all payments wont just into vain like it does in conventional banking, u will still own ur share and instead of taking the house from u Lariba would help u sell ur house and when u sell it u get to keep ur 10% or watever ur equity is and Lariba gets its share. isnt it like the best bankruptcy every :)

so now again wat are the differences.

Islam forbides u to rent money.
-Conventional are renting money on fixed monthly payments
-Lariba is not renting money they are renting the house which is halal in islam, aur monthly payments are not fixed they keep on decreasing every month.

Islam tells u to do partnership
-there is no partnership wat so ever in conventional system. and they are just renting money.
-In Lariba its pure partnership, both of u own % of the house, u only pay rent for the % Lariba owns. and each month Lariba's ownership would keep on decreasing.

islam wants to share profit and loss
-Conventional there is no sharing of profit and loss, they keep all the proft. if u have 50,000 in ur equity and u have to declare bankruptcy they would keep ur 50,000 and also take the house from u and sell it and keep that money aswell and u are just like a stinky rat on the street now.
-Lariba doesn take ur house, they let u keep ur house and help u to sell it, both of u find a buyer and sell it, they keep watever percentage they own and u keep ur percentage.

Saudi arabia
u could prolly find some interest kinda stuff from their jsut for the sake of argument but interest is totally haram over their u would know cuz u also lived there.

Its a partnership bro, u sell the house for its less value and u keep ur loss with the percentage and Lariba would keep their loss. thats the main difference between Lariba and conventional.

No, I said I was confused. i did not say I had no point of view. that was an assumption on your part. my confusion stems from the fact that there are no real basic answers.

1-I did work in the investment banking groups of one of teh largest financial institutions so please dont think of me as some business neophyte thanks ( i was a chaprassi there btw :D)

2- I am not worried about fancy words ecoshan. I just dont like fancy words getting in the way of a simple answer. I appreciate your financial experience,

similar to how your payment for principal is increasing and interest is deceasing in a conventional mortgage and if you think of the interest as the banks 'share' of the profit, you are really not doing anything much different.

if the house sells, if your house sells and you have a conventional mortgage you get your equity back too.

ask the lariba boys what happens when the property value tanks. they cant sell the house or the house sells for much below the initial price. so lets say teh $400K house is now $300K, and its sold, what happens. you are saying that i dont lose my shirt?

just because an avg persn does not see direct interest in their daily lives does not mean it is an interest free system.

Re: is this a trouble with some muslims or am I missing something?

btw- i dont see the muttah and misyar brigade here :D what happened to them

Once again u replied without even reading my post, second time. u might be superman but u cant read such a long thread and type ur reply in the matter of some blinks. anyways i would still keep on answering everything INsha Allah.

[QUOTE]

1- I am not worried about fancy words ecoshan. I just dont like fancy words getting in the way of a simple answer. I appreciate your financial experience, but I did work in the investment banking groups of one of teh largest financial institutions so please dont think of me as some business neophyte thanks

[/QUOTE]

By the way u and Ume-Zafeerah are multi nicks??? u were telling her ke araam se bhi baat hosekti hai and now u r doing the samething. Quote me just one sentence where i said i know more than u do, or u dont know anything or i challenged ur expertise, just show me one post and i'd quit.
What i said was ppl in past used fancy wording like Mudaraba, murabaha, musharakah, Riba, Qadr, riba il nisa'ee just to play with words and to hide the word riba so that ppl could think its something islamic, i didn say u didn know anything.
This kinda attitude really makes me uncomfortable when mature ppl just assume something and make it ego prob. no thanks.

[QUOTE]
similar to how your payment for principal is increasing and interest is deceasing in a conventional mortgage and if you think of the interest as the banks 'share' of the profit, you are really not doing anything much different.
[/Quote]

Similar but not same, right?? i told u in the begining that there is a very thin line, u have to leave all ur bias to see that.
millionth time m gona repeat the samething, they are renting money, they are renting money, they are renting money, and rent is decided by the fed reserve, and its totally haram.
but shariah bank is renting the house, and renting a house is not haram in islam, everyone rents, m sure when ur family came to US u didn buy a house the very first day unless u were super rich, must've had rented the house. and the rent is not decided by Fed reserve or islamic bank or u, its decided by taking quoutes from 6 different real estate brokers.

There is a difference between similar and same.

[QUOTE]
if the house sells, if your house sells and you have a conventional mortgage you get your equity back too.
[/QUOTE]

that is true, but what if u go bankrupt??? would u get ur equity back??? no sir u wont, bank would keep all ur equity that uve been paying for years, on top of that bank would also keep ur house and resell it and make more money.
on the other hand in islamic financing u would still own ur equity even in the case of bankruptcy and bank wont take the house back, infact they would try to sell it, when its sold u keep ur share (suppose ur share is 19%) and bank would keep their share (81%)

[QUOTE]
ask the lariba boys what happens when the property value tanks. they cant sell the house or the house sells for much below the initial price. so lets say teh $400K house is now $300K, and its sold, what happens. you are saying that i dont lose my shirt?
[/QUOTE]

i think m really bad in explaining.
Ayite if the house is $400K and u own 50% and islamic bank owns 50% so it means u own $200K and the bank owns 200K, now recession hits ur door and the prices drop, and the house is now 300K, so 50% of ur share is 150K and banks is also 150K. so both of u took 50% of the loss.

BTW wat part of the statements below u couldnt understand and didn show the difference between conventional and Islamic banking??

[QUOTE]
Islam forbides u to rent money.
-Conventional are renting money on fixed monthly payments
-Lariba is not renting money they are renting the house which is halal in islam, aur monthly payments are not fixed they keep on decreasing every month.

Islam tells u to do partnership
-there is no partnership wat so ever in conventional system. and they are just renting money.
-In Lariba its pure partnership, both of u own % of the house, u only pay rent for the % Lariba owns. and each month Lariba's ownership would keep on decreasing.

islam wants to share profit and loss
-Conventional there is no sharing of profit and loss, they keep all the proft. if u have 50,000 in ur equity and u have to declare bankruptcy they would keep ur 50,000 and also take the house from u and sell it and keep that money aswell and u are just like a stinky rat on the street now.
-Lariba doesn take ur house, they let u keep ur house and help u to sell it, both of u find a buyer and sell it, they keep watever percentage they own and u keep ur percentage.
[/Quote]

I am a very fast reader. i read it the first time, and the second time. but it missed the mark.

You did not understand what I was saying, said you will go to basics but you like teh lariba ppl are still stuck in semantics, while I am focusing on the basic mechanics...

I tried to hint towards it in a rather humorous manner, unless you think referring to myself as chaprassi was some attack on you.

relax..I know ppl can get worked up here, but id you are making a point and you dont think its getting through, please dont get frustrated, try explaining it in a diff way.

again you assume way too much, there is no ego prob. But just like there are fancy words that u mention, when you look at the essence of how the lariba transcations actually occur you will see that there is more there than meets the eye.

years ago I was having the same issues with peope who were talking of islamic financing and the discussion was fairly identical, and now we know that these financing approaches were not quite as islamic as we thought..

similar, same..close enough,lets not get stuck in semantics please.
no bias..prove it. you have not proven it yet

millionth time, lariba uses teh foundations of an intersts based system in property valuations, payment info etc etc..and callign soemthign haram as halal is well not halal.

sharia bank does not have the title...does it? who has the tile?

and what are teh quotes on 6 diff brokers based on?

okay so answered one question, run it with the example of you own 5% and bank owns 95% and price drops from 400K to 300K

I understood, but what you are missing is that there is a lot going on there, u sign traditional mortgage documents noting interets rates and all, lariba rider has its own words, the title goes to you, not to the bank, so in essence it is not different than conventional loan.

the ONLY point of difference is if the loss is shared equally, rest is all the same. and my issue is with the basis of it, the sources of funding and methods of calculating.

and even the loss issue is rleevant really in case of a bankruptcy.

again, personally to me it has no relevance, I dont believe that interest today is what riba was back in the day. right or wrong i am consistent.

The issue is that the people who want to avoid interest were first hoodwinked by all these shariah compliant things that numerosu experts said were the real mccoy and now we find out its not the case.

lariba has to be put to the test to. just the profit and loss sharing is not enough. valuations, contract documents, funding sources and title issues are all real, we can ignore them and say oh they dont matter, but dont they?

i see your point of viee completely and know lariba well enough that I did not learn anything new, this is not an atatck on you, you provided the information thatI knew already, which is good because atleats it validates what I knew.

lets agree to disagree and move on..

On a separate note, I would be interested in finding out how they are dealing with foreclosures btw, case studies would be nice.